E85/Flex Fuel

[ghost]

Does anyone here have real life experience with E85 fuel or Flex Fuel cars from GM or Ford?  I have a Ford that can supposedly use E85 and there is a spot in San Antonio that sells it.  I would be interested to know if it can fuck up the engine somehow, or ifnthere are other reasons to avoid it.  Thanks!    

[sinij]

Flex Fuel means that car fuel lines designed not to corrode with high ethanol content, but using E85 will guarantee to drop your fuel efficiency. Idea behind these cars is that in 15 years we will have no choice but to use E85 (as opposed to E10 that most gas is these days).

[MahrinSkel]

Yeah, I filled one of my cars with E85 by accident, my mileage for that tank sucked (about 2-3 mpg lower) but other than that there was no effect.  I read up on it and other than corrosion in the fuel system (and potentially clogging the catalytic converter and other smog control) there's generally no negative impact from E85 in any engine made after the mid-90's.  Engines specifically designed for it shouldn't have any problem at all (besides the lower MPG, which is inevitable because of the lower energy of alcohol).

On the other hand, the corn it takes to fill a truck or large SUV with ethanol could feed a third-world family for a year and when (not if) the subsidies for ethanol go away the price will jump to $8-10 a gallon.  So, there's that.

--Dave

[sinij]

Raising food prices is the only way to balance trade deficit versus raising oil prices.

[Chimpy]

If you are trying to use less oil to "stick it to OPEC" or some shit, please remember that it takes MORE petroleum to produce corn ethanol than you get out of it.

[ghost]

Actually, the only reason I was considering using it right now was because it's cheaper.  It's not a political statement at all. 

[Selby]

Actually, the only reason I was considering using it right now was because it's cheaper.

In the end it really isn't.  Your fuel economy will go down due to the lower energy per gallon of ethanol vs. gasoline, so you spend as much if not more per tank for the same amount of driving.

Technically you are really only supposed to use it in Flex Fuel vehicles, but putting it in a regular car won't do much if any short term damage.  If you always use it the chance of damage long term goes up (along with the fuel\air mix not being adequately calibrated in all driving situations).  Most of the damage results from corrosion of the lines or damage to rubber components, performance may suffer if the mixture runs too lean & the computer can't calibrate for it (very unlikely and not much of an issue with anything 5-6 years old or newer).

[ghost]

In the end it really isn't.  Your fuel economy will go down due to the lower energy per gallon of ethanol vs. gasoline, so you spend as much if not more per tank for the same amount of driving.

Technically you are really only supposed to use it in Flex Fuel vehicles, but putting it in a regular car won't do much if any short term damage.  If you always use it the chance of damage long term goes up (along with the fuel\air mix not being adequately calibrated in all driving situations).  Most of the damage results from corrosion of the lines or damage to rubber components, performance may suffer if the mixture runs too lean & the computer can't calibrate for it (very unlikely and not much of an issue with anything 5-6 years old or newer).

My understanding is that it was significantly cheaper, thus canceling out the MPG issue.  Again, I don't know anything about this, so please educate me.   

[Selby]

My understanding is that it was significantly cheaper, thus canceling out the MPG issue.

What is the cost/gal where you live for E85 vs. regular 87 octane gas?  Where I've seen it is usually $0.50/gal or so less - but I don't go looking for E85 stations and haven't seen one recently.  Since ethanol is ~32% less energy content per volume than gasoline, for E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gas) you are looking at ~25% fuel economy reduction.  So if regular 87 fuel costs $4.00/gal (numbers for argument's sake here) then E85 would have to cost $3.00 or less per gallon to cancel out the loss MPG and costs issue.  The cheaper E85 is vs. gasoline, obviously the cost to operate gets better, even if you do have to fuel up more often than you would in a gasoline vehicle.  You just get to spend less to do it and save money vs. what you would have spent ;-)

And the ~25% is the basic math not taking into account any specific car or tuning to achieve it.  Some manufacturers claim to only get a 10-15% reduction in mileage while older cars can suffer even a bit worse mileage loss for a variety of factors such as increased water content or flat out not being tuned for it.

They use the flex fuel vehicles EVERYWHERE at my job, no one really complains or has issues with it but then no one cares about fuel economy or maintenance since the gubmint is paying for it all ;-)  So if you want a flex fuel vehicle, how plentiful are E85 stations near you?  If everywhere, hey why not if you're going to buy a new(er) car anyways.

[ghost]

I honestly don't know.  I know there is a station in town, but that's about it.  I wanted to clear up the "will it kill my car" bit first and then move on the the cost part.  If that is the case (25% lower gas mileage) it doesn't sound like a great deal.  Do the people at your job actually use the flex fuel, or just have the cars? 

[Selby]

I wanted to clear up the "will it kill my car" bit first and then move on the the cost part.  If that is the case (25% lower gas mileage) it doesn't sound like a great deal.  Do the people at your job actually use the flex fuel, or just have the cars? 

It won't kill your car if it is already listed as a flex fuel vehicle from the manufacturer.  The worst that happens is you notice you get less miles per tank.  If it costs less to fill up the tank each time you might not care as much except having to fuel up more often.  If you have to drive all the way across San Antonio (say from Anderson loop to downtown... and that 10-410 interchange SUCKS many times of day) then I wouldn't even bother.  If it isn't out of your normal driving way, it can't hurt to give it a shot and see.  Not sure what car you have so I can't offer any more specifics.

I honestly don't know where they fill up the cars, I've been told some actually fill up with E85 but really don't know.  All I know is they are everywhere because we have to buy "American" for most cars still.

[ghost]

The only place I know of in town that sells it is at I-35 and 410 interchange and that is on the way home from work, more or less.  I may give it a go and see.  I have an F150, so its not like the gas mileage can get much worse 

I suspect that many more situations are going to "require" American cars as Ford and particularly GM are trying to get back on their feet. 

[sinij]

If you are trying to use less oil to "stick it to OPEC" or some shit, please remember that it takes MORE petroleum to produce corn ethanol than you get out of it.

Actually, no. Nearly all OPEC countries are net importers of food. You jack food prices with minimum net loss of petroleum and you end up with less trade deficit.