University of Phoenix for undergrad?

[Hawkbit]

Does anyone have experience with University of Phoenix online?  If so, would you mind posting your experience and overall opinion, even if it's only from a hiring perspective?  I'm concerned a bit with their accreditation and whether my time/money is well spent there.  We've got so many tech people from all areas, I figure a few of the folks here have an opinion on the matter.

I did about 2/3 of a degree in Philosophy at Ohio State and stopped going when we had the baby to stay home with her (wife is our breadwinner).  Now our daughter is headed into first grade in the fall and I need to be getting on with my life a bit.  I'm looking to switch into Programming/Web Development and that's almost like starting over at OSU because they consider that a hard science degree. 

University of Phoenix is willing to bring in 60 of my OSU credits towards a 120 credit Software Programming BS degree with them.  It's pretty expensive, but after looking at OSU, they're actually priced pretty equivalently when all is done.  I also like the fact that the residency is portable, as we plan to move from Ohio to Seattle area sometime next year. 

My best friend is in the development industry and he seems to feel that a degree from any 4yr combined with being able to show experience should net a decent starting job, provided the need for programmers is there in two years. 

Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[Nebu]

If you already have a position with a company that you wish to stay with, ask your employer if they value an online degree. 

If you're planning to retool to search for a position in these tough economic times, it always pays to have your degree from the most reputable institution possible.  Ohio State will offer you the ability to conduct research and pursue internships at companies willing to offer you a job if you bust ass for them.  Online education can't touch this. 

Disclaimer: I am a professor at a state university.  I have a bias toward traditional education.

[slog]

I thought you just send them a check for a little extra and they will send you the diploma up front.  Saves time for everyone so you don't use up valuable resources attending classes.

[Hawkbit]

I do not have a job at this time.  I have worked on and off after leaving OSU in 2005, but nothing important because my main concern was taking care of my daughter.  I'm a stay-at-home dad, for lack of a better term.  So I'm not really looking to re-tool, rather at age 35 I'm looking to settle into a career in the next few years. 

I'm not looking for research or internships.  I never really fit in at a university, being a home owner with a family and (then) job.  OSU was all about the 20yr old partyers, I'm just too far past that.  And again, going to OSU would be FULLY starting over.  As in, a full four years because of how they separate Arts degrees from Science degrees (my Philosophy degree was arts, CS at OSU is science only). 

I can completely appreciate your bias, but its just not for everyone.  Seriously, if I'm looking at going back for four+ years I'll likely just go blue collar.  All that is left for me to take at University of Phoenix is the computer related classes, the Java, .NET, the architecture... all the history and humanities transferred. 

[HaemishM]

I thought you just send them a check for a little extra and they will send you the diploma up front.  Saves time for everyone so you don't use up valuable resources attending classes.

No, actually.

My wife is attending. The course work can be tough as it's a daily thing with little time for breaks. I couldn't tell you about the computer courses, as that's not her degree field.

[Minvaren]

From several second-hand accounts from people in the programs, they're one of the more successful degree mills for undergrad and MBA stuff.  They slam you with the coursework like Haemish said, but very few people seem to fail the classes.

I've also heard of many companies not accepting their degrees anymore, especially at the MBA level.  Again, second-hand information, YMMV.

[naum]

You'll do a lot of "group class" things, which, depending on your group mates, you might discover to be a infuriating experience.

[Salamok]

Last I checked UoP degrees were acceptable to teach school with.  If it is good enough for our public schools then it is good enough for me.  Also once yer old and experienced not very many people ask where or when you got your degree.

[Chimpy]

I would avoid a for-profit online university, personally. Mainly because the prices are ridiculous (usually more expensive than an Ivy League school). A lot of the big traditional universities have online degree programs now as well.

There is a very interesting Frontline piece about for-profit colleges called College, Inc. (it is on their website if you can get the damn player to work, might even be on Netflix by now).

[Sand]

If you want to be taken seriously in the business community or ever get beyond an entry level position, dont do it.
It might be okay for a non-traditional student with vast working knowledge/experience who simply wants to check the "college grad" box, but for someone with no experience who is primarily relying on their degree to get hired its a bad situation.

[Strazos]

Are there perhaps other universities in the area you could transfer to?

[Hawkbit]

I would avoid a for-profit online university, personally. Mainly because the prices are ridiculous (usually more expensive than an Ivy League school). A lot of the big traditional universities have online degree programs now as well.

There is a very interesting Frontline piece about for-profit colleges called College, Inc. (it is on their website if you can get the damn player to work, might even be on Netflix by now).

1.  Prices at UoPhoenix and Ohio State are nigh-similar.  I'll need $35,000 to finish from either in 2-ish years.  The difference being at Phoenix I'd leave with a BS in Programming, and at OSU I would leave with a liberal arts degree. 
2.  Ohio State (my closest logical choice) does not offer any form of online degrees, though Franklin University (local) does, though they're only regionally accredited and more expensive than both. 
3.  Again, part of the draw to an online degree is that it does not tie me down physically, as we will likely move next year out of state.  It would be silly for me to head back to OSU only to move before I'm finished with the degree. 
4.  Thank you for the College, Inc find.  I'm going to peruse their piece this weekend, there's lots of good opinion there. 

As much as I'd love to go the traditional route, I'm beyond that at this point.  I've even questioned some programmers about forgoing the degree and self-teaching, but that was not recommended, as most places want to check that "has degree" box off in an interview. 

Thanks again for all the info and opinions, all.  Keep them coming. 

[schild]

The degree is bullshit if you want to work at real companies, in real cities, that do meaningful shit. You'd be better off moving up in your career.

Also, I don't even put school info on my resume anymore when looking for a job. If they REQUIRE it, I will then put it on there.

PS Bachelor degrees in general mean fuckall except you were able to finish school.

[Hawkbit]

I don't have a career.  Literally.  There's nowhere to move up to, being a stay at home dad. 

What I'm hoping is that I'll get a bachelor's to satisfy that requirement of an employer, along with getting a few years experience with tools to get my foot in the door somewhere.  From there, it's up to me to keep myself relevant to prospective employers.  As has been mentioned here a few times, after a certain point it becomes less about education and more about how much is brought to the table.  If I understand correctly, at least.  It's not like I want to be a CEO.  I just want to be able to get in somewhere and work my way up, see where it takes me.  Which is how most people do it, I think. 

[Paelos]

I slept my way to the top, personally.

[Raging Turtle]

Have you looked into local community colleges or technical schools (if tech schools do programming/web)?  They'll probably be a tenth of the price, and you may be able to transfer credit after you move.

I would also strongly advise talking to the types of companies you're planning on applying to after completing your degree.  Ask them their opinions on programs like UoP, and how they would react to seeing it on a resume.  It might take a couple calls or emails but I'm sure you can find an HR guy who'll give you an idea if you'd be throwing your money away or not.

[dusematic]

Sounds like you've already talked yourself into University of Phoenix.  So, not too sure why you're asking.  I'm also not sure why the only choice is between OSU and UoP.  OSU credits should transfer anywhere, and most universities and junior colleges have night/online programs.  

Also, do you already know how to program your ass off?  If not, do you really think a fly-by-night UoP degree is going to set the world on fire as you enter the labor market in your mid-to-late thirties as a newb?  Let me tell you something that you already know but don't want to hear:  nobody respects a University of Phoenix degree.  Nobody.

Now, if you already know what the fuck you're doing (as someone suggested) and just need a pedigree so to speak, then maybe it's worth it in your circumstances.  You can probably waltz into an interview and impress upon someone that you know what the fuck you're talking about.  

But if you're a newbie looking to change careers then I'd much rather have a local junior college degree.  It doesn't scream "fraudulent loser" and it's cheaper.

[Merusk]

I thought you just send them a check for a little extra and they will send you the diploma up front.  Saves time for everyone so you don't use up valuable resources attending classes.

No, actually.

My wife is attending. The course work can be tough as it's a daily thing with little time for breaks. I couldn't tell you about the computer courses, as that's not her degree field.

Ditto my wife for an associates in medical admin.  No time or resources for her to do a traditional degree and the online one lets her get an associates while working.

You'll do a lot of "group class" things, which, depending on your group mates, you might discover to be a infuriating experience.

Indeed. Constant bitching from the wife her first 6 months (before the usual freshman attrition) as the idiots she was in class with treated the online class forums like the Vault, spelling and grammar included.

I would avoid a for-profit online university, personally.

ALL universities are For-Profit.  ALL OF THEM.  Nebu has bitched about this before.  It's also why they'll lie to your damn face about credits transferring from whatever school you're at then tell you, "oh, actually 2/3 of them have to be retaken," after you've matriculated.

PS Bachelor degrees in general mean fuckall except you were able to finish school.

All depends on the field, but for what most people get them in, yeah,  I'd agree completely.

[Trippy]

Let me propose an alternative way to start a career in Web programming.

Build for yourself a database-backed Web site, preferably based on something you have a personal interest in (to better motivate you to finish it). It doesn't have to be an original idea -- in fact it'll be a lot of easier if you can "borrow" ideas from existing sites that do similar things to what you are trying to do.

Use this opportunity to learn programming, SQL, HTML, CSS and JavaScript. Make sure you study some of the fundamentals of CS while you are at it (algorithms, etc.).

You might need some help on the graphics and look and feel of the site but don't worry too much about that stuff assuming you are more interested in programming than in doing graphic design.

Once it's done make it publicly accessible. Better yet put the code for your site on Github and make it publicaly readable so people can actually see how well you write code (or not if you think it sucks).

After the site is done start looking for contract work doing the same sort of thing using your site as your "portfolio/reference". Once you do some of those and can establish some references from those jobs you can look for a more permanent job. Or you might like just doing the freelance thing as you'll have a lot of more flexibility over your time and working environment.

[Khaldun]

Take this with a grain of salt, given that I'm in brick-and-mortar, but...no. I've actually looked into and even gotten access to a U. of Phoenix class. First off, most of the for-profits are absolutely brutally sucking off federal dollars via Pell Grants--that's their main racket, in fact. What they give in return is often terrible, low-grade, indifferent education. Phoenix is a bit better than some, and in a few cases, as ok as online ed is going to get. But in some lines, really not much better than reading Wikipedia, only it's going to cost you a shitload. I'm not saying that brick-and-mortar is always better, and in fact, in the less selective domains, often costs as much as U. Phoenix and delivers equally indifferent goods.  The difference is that still, for the most part, employers and others will value a brick-and-mortar degree more (I've heard from plenty of people who've said that for-profit online degrees they have done have opened zero doors for them) and that it's a bit easier, if you're a savvy student, to find the best professors in a shitty institution if it's a flesh-and-blood setup than it is in online for-profit. The reason is that online for-profits conceal almost all info from you about who teaches--you can't shop around, find the diamond in the rough, etc.--you often can't find out anything at all about who is teaching in advance of paying. Search their sites and you'll see that most faculty info is cloaked and some of it stays cloaked even when you've paid your money.

[Hawkbit]

Lots of great ideas here, much appreciated.  I'm going to open a line of communications at a local non-profit university that offers online degrees to see what credits transfer.  Specifically, this degree:  http://www.franklin.edu/degree-programs/undergraduate-majors/web-development/web-development-bachelor-s-degree-requirements.html

I've already talked with them about residency and they're okay if I move out of state, it won't change pricing.  What they were unable to tell me is what credits transfer.  So we'll see.  After reviewing tuition, they seem a bit cheaper than Phoenix, unless they don't take many of my credit from OSU. 

I will say this about Phoenix:  The whole process of talking with them has been too easy; something feels amiss. That was part of why I asked here.

Trippy:  I really thought about doing exactly that, but I'm really concerned about not having the degree.  Plus, I know myself and know that I would thrive with set goals, and I would worry that I'd miss something by myself that I would learn in a class. 

Thanks again, all. 

[Chimpy]

I will say this about Phoenix:  The whole process of talking with them has been too easy; something feels amiss. That was part of why I asked here.

Of course it is easy, they are trying to sell you a product that you will apply for Federal Student Loans to pay for which means they get their money pretty much right away. (From the taxpayers who could possibly never get paid back if you default).

[Nebu]

I think I can sum this up:

< 1% of all PhD's have the credentials to get a tenure track faculty position at Ohio State University. 

99 - 100% of all PhD's have the credentials to get a position at University of Phoenix.

If you want to get an education from an institution that houses the top minds in their respective fields, all working at the leading edge of their discipline, then Ohio State is a superior value. If you just want a piece of paper that will satisfy a minimum requirement, the University of Phoenix will work. 

You'll never regret getting a degree from Ohio State.  Should your goals change in 10 years (like most people's do), your degree from Ohio State will provide far more opportunities both domestically and globally.  I can't honestly say that about the U of Phoenix.

[HaemishM]

as most places want to check that "has degree" box off in an interview. 

And that's about all that a bachelor's degree of any kind is worth to an interviewer.

[Nebu]

And that's about all that a bachelor's degree of any kind is worth to an interviewer.

As stated above, that is HIGHLY field dependent.  The more science/technical the job is, the more important the granting institution is to the potential employer.   I consider computer scientists to be akin to engineers.

Now, your educational background matters less as you gain experience.  You still need to land that first good job.

[Sky]

As someone without a degree, being unable to check that box in an interview means not getting a lot of interviews, even with 11 years experience.

Once I wrap up this cert, I've been looking at both the local community college (for my AS) and university (SU for BS) online courses. They've traditionally worked well together since it's a common path for the locals to take. Getting a degree not only opens a ton of doors, I would really like to learn a lot of the stuff they're offering now since it interests me. Having to fill in the non-computer courses could be a drag because I'm not getting any younger.

Do you have any certs? Might be another way to go, split is about 50/50 with stuff I've been looking at for certs and degrees, though the cert reqs do tend to want some experience (which is why I'm grabbing the low-hanging fruit first).

[Sand]

as most places want to check that "has degree" box off in an interview. 

And that's about all that a bachelor's degree of any kind is worth to an interviewer.

As Nebu already said that is highly field dependent. But even then, when its the sole thing you are relying on to get your foot in the door, because you have little or no experience in your chosen field it becomes much more important.

[Rasix]

And that's about all that a bachelor's degree of any kind is worth to an interviewer.

As stated above, that is HIGHLY field dependent.  The more science/technical the job is, the more important the granting institution is to the potential employer.   I consider computer scientists to be akin to engineers.

Now, your educational background matters less as you gain experience.  You still need to land that first good job.

To support what Nebu said, you don't see a lot of diploma mill grads where I work.  However, my employer can afford to be incredibly selective for even the most menial positions.  I'd say 75% of what we hire are computer science, computer/electrical engineering, or MIS/IS degreees.

Once you're in, it doesn't that much matter anymore, but it does help a bit with internal movement.

If the online degree can offer some sort of internship / co-op opportunity, then that might help.  Getting one of those positions before you graduate aids greatly in landing a full time position.

[Engels]

Also bear in mind that there's a significant prejudice and uncensored loathing of UoP among actual accredited institutions. Getting a job at one of those might be problematic if they see UoP on the resume.

[Yoru]

To support what Nebu said, you don't see a lot of diploma mill grads where I work.  However, my employer can afford to be incredibly selective for even the most menial positions.  I'd say 75% of what we hire are computer science, computer/electrical engineering, or MIS/IS degreees.

This. Also consider what you're getting your degree in. I noted that you mentioned degrees like "Web Programming" - these are most likely useless at best and actively detrimental at worst. A good traditional education grounded in science or engineering will open a lot of doors because the degree is (a) well understood but also (b) is expected to ground you in the principles underpinning your field.

An applied degree like "Web Programming" or "Software Development" is worthless because it's probably just a puffed-up technical-college certification - if you use the tools but don't understand how and why they work, then your skills will be obsolete as soon as the tools change. Worse, such a degree may leave you unequipped when it comes to designing solutions rather than just implementing someone else's design or copy-pasting/tweaking something that already works.

When I sift resumes, it's incredibly easy to circular-file the degree-mill grads and the for-pay non-degree people because I see plenty of resumes from high-quality schools with proper fundamental-science-oriented degrees. The few that slip through tend to have either interesting experience or a good portfolio of side projects.

So yeah, take the advice here, suck it up and finish school traditionally. In the long run, it's a better choice.

[Hawkbit]

Not that I'm considering this because I don't have that kind of money, but how are technical degrees from Devry considered?  They're big here in Columbus and all four people I know that graduated from there have gone on to successful careers.  Just wondering if they carry the same stigma that other 'degree mills' do. 

Again, much appreciated on the comments. 

[Nebu]

An applied degree like "Web Programming" or "Software Development" is worthless because it's probably just a puffed-up technical-college certification - if you use the tools but don't understand how and why they work, then your skills will be obsolete as soon as the tools change. Worse, such a degree may leave you unequipped when it comes to designing solutions rather than just implementing someone else's design or copy-pasting/tweaking something that already works.

When I sift resumes, it's incredibly easy to circular-file the degree-mill grads and the for-pay non-degree people because I see plenty of resumes from high-quality schools with proper fundamental-science-oriented degrees. The few that slip through tend to have either interesting experience or a good portfolio of side projects.

So yeah, take the advice here, suck it up and finish school traditionally. In the long run, it's a better choice.

I think this answers your Devry question well.

When unemployment is high, it's an employers market.  Employers set the standard.  The more you stand out in a stack of resumes, the better the chance of an on-site interview.  It's always best to do everything you have in your power to stack the odds in your favor.  Often, this requires sacrifice. 

[Soln]

I'd recommend a local community college over a private for-profit college.  Community college math and CS courses are as good as anywhere often for the first 1-3 years from what I've seen and heard.  You will save a lot of money and you will pre-requisites to enter a university degree later if you want.

[Chimpy]

Have you thought about finishing your Philosophy degree and getting a C.S. minor (at OSU of course)?

I know at Illinois they have 2 tracks of C.S. degrees, one is part of the Liberal Arts and Sciences college and one is the College of Engineering. (Mainly to allow the people in the hard sciences to double major or minor in computer science I'd imagine)

[Lantyssa]

That's a good idea.  We had a Science option and a business option, too.

If you know you're going to Oregon in a few years, you should talk to them about what credits might transfer, too.