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Author Topic: Ralph Nader wants to ban athletic scholarships  (Read 19038 times)
ghost
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on: March 25, 2011, 09:02:08 AM

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I have to say that, while I love college football, I tend to agree with his reasoning.  Big time college sports are a business, and those in charge care nothing for the education involved.  And on the players side, there are a lot of athletes that use the scholarships for what they're designed for but many do not.  The football and basketball graduation rates of a lot of schools are pitiful. 

Quote
Nader said that colleges should either integrate athletics into the educational mission by eliminating college scholarships, or, "openly acknowledge the professionalism in big-time college sports, remove the tax-exempt status currently given to athletic departments, and make universities operate them as unrelated businesses."

I suspect that if universities were forced to operate their athletics department as an unrelated business that they would actually be able to pay their players then.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 09:31:13 AM

They could get rid of a lot of the bullshit NCAA rules too. They should do it like junior hockey does- anyone who participates gets a free education after their athletic career is over, so the 95% that don't go to the pros have at least something. Make it like a scholarship pension or something. Then the retards who can't or won't go to college aren't wasting spots for actual students.

Nader is generally a bright guy, but I will never forgive him for 2000.

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Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 09:49:27 AM

I tend to favor the European football approach, where academics are completely separate from the football. The pro teams have academies, youth and reserves leagues and the kids get paid when they sign pro contracts.

naum
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Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 02:29:11 PM

Agree 100%.

Schools should be about school and the athletics intramural and/or "friendly" bouts comprised of "students".

Defenders of the current scenario often cite how the athletic programs bring the bacon in, but actually, outside of a few high profile schools, most of that money just is earmarked for the athletic department, or for facilities and luxuries 99% of the student body has no/limited access (i.e., swimming pool facilities open only 6-8p Wednesday evening, indoor basketball/volleyball courts open only an hour or two on selected days to the general student body, etc.…).

It's been a while since I graduated from college, but I remember the separate dining facilities for athletes (and this was a I-AA state school, though nationally ranked wrestling program), at least 2-3 tutors for each athlete (and still many flunked out, despite the favoritism and help provided), etc.…

Bottom line, it's a pox on the academic side and permits an avalanche of corruption. This, I know from friends who were recruited (one of my friends who ended up getting drafted by Buddy Ryan, when he was coach of the Eagles after 5 U. of Miami "seasons") -- the stories he told me about the recruiters… …basically he couldn't take a piss without being in the shadow of a recruiter. Maybe it's gotten better since, but I doubt it…

The Canadian junior hockey leagues are much better model to emulate. Smaller cities could have intense rivalries and attendance and fanfare could be just as large as collegiate sports today or even greater than pro ranks.

Zero chance of it happening during the next 60 years, though.

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Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 03:17:58 PM

American sports are really the only place where the "traditional" systems of "amateur" vs. "professional" are still used. Now that all major international competitions allow for professionals to participate, the fight to keep collegiate sports as some bastion of "amateur" competitive spirit is just hand-waving.

But you won't see the college system reformed because it is big business now with the "ideal" labor pool: a pool that gets paid virtually nothing while being the workhorse that brings home the big bucks.

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Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 03:41:20 PM

American sports are really the only place where the "traditional" systems of "amateur" vs. "professional" are still used. Now that all major international competitions allow for professionals to participate, the fight to keep collegiate sports as some bastion of "amateur" competitive spirit is just hand-waving.

But you won't see the college system reformed because it is big business now with the "ideal" labor pool: a pool that gets paid virtually nothing while being the workhorse that brings home the big bucks.

Eh, no, I wouldn't equate a college scholarship (which continues to skyrocket) with all the extra perks (tutors, enhanced dining, etc.…) not enjoyed by the typical "student"-student with "virtually nothing"…

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
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Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 05:37:06 PM

Eh, no, I wouldn't equate a college scholarship (which continues to skyrocket) with all the extra perks (tutors, enhanced dining, etc.…) not enjoyed by the typical "student"-student with "virtually nothing"…

Compared to what their labors bring into the program dollar-wise?

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Margalis
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Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 07:21:21 PM

I don't know if this solution and his approach are ideal, from what I understand he announced this without getting any real backers first, kind of setting himself up for failure.

That said big-time college athletics are a joke. It's huge business that has nothing to do with education and none of the workers get paid.

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Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 07:48:33 PM

Yeah I don't know what the point of this crusade could be besides reminding people that he exists. There is no hope of anything changing even though he is 100% right and the ncaa is a fucking disgusting exploitative scam.

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Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 01:29:28 AM

Nader can go fuck himself in his self-aggrandizing ass.

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Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 07:34:26 PM


Khaldun
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Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 01:21:20 PM

Nader is the wrong guy for this, but I'd love to see someone with credibility turn this into a serious life mission. The solution is obvious, and I think relatively simple on the implementation end. Make college teams into the NBA and NFL minor leagues. Keep their affiliations with their sponsoring universities, have the universities be whole or part owners of the new teams, and all the emotional ties and payoffs to local communities stay intact. Hell, if you want to, offer players who bomb out of their teams or get injured have guaranteed admission as students within an institutional network of participating universities if you want to keep that association. But drop the pretense that the players are in any sense students, pay them the salaries that they're owed, have the money being made be completely out in the open. The NCAA's corruption would make a 3rd World dictator blush.
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Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 01:30:51 PM

I tend to favor the European football approach, where academics are completely separate from the football. The pro teams have academies, youth and reserves leagues and the kids get paid when they sign pro contracts.

This. 

Athletes with the talent to play for large programs should be getting paid (and paid well) for their talents.  Almost noone that I played football with in college saw their education as anything but a hinderence to their real mission (namely, making it to the NFL).

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Paelos
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Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 03:37:34 PM

Nader is the wrong guy for this, but I'd love to see someone with credibility turn this into a serious life mission. The solution is obvious, and I think relatively simple on the implementation end. Make college teams into the NBA and NFL minor leagues. Keep their affiliations with their sponsoring universities, have the universities be whole or part owners of the new teams, and all the emotional ties and payoffs to local communities stay intact. Hell, if you want to, offer players who bomb out of their teams or get injured have guaranteed admission as students within an institutional network of participating universities if you want to keep that association. But drop the pretense that the players are in any sense students, pay them the salaries that they're owed, have the money being made be completely out in the open. The NCAA's corruption would make a 3rd World dictator blush.

Except there's no incentive to change. The NFL doesn't give a shit where the talent comes from, and the NCAA is making more money by abusing their tax-exempt status.

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ghost
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Reply #14 on: March 28, 2011, 07:48:54 AM

It will never change, but it's nice to hear someone call out the NCAA for what it really is-  a business.  And many of the institutions that get a ton of money from the NCAA sports are shockingly involved in the decision making processes of the NCAA.  Being a member based "voluntary" organization is great and all, but heavily biased. 
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Reply #15 on: March 28, 2011, 08:30:32 AM

The guy who went after the bowl tax records had the right of it. That's how you are going to sink the NCAA and the bowl system.

It's like Al Capone. You can only get them on tax evasion, not their bigger crimes.

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Reply #16 on: March 28, 2011, 11:05:10 AM

Would put a lot of people out of work, and basically ruin marching bands for all time. I think I'm not in favor.

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Paelos
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Reply #17 on: March 28, 2011, 11:08:38 AM

Would put a lot of people out of work, and basically ruin marching bands for all time. I think I'm not in favor.

Which people? Also, marching bands? That's a casualty I'm willing to accept.

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Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 11:15:36 AM

Stadium employees, all sorts of athletic department staff at colleges, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it was literally hundreds of thousands of jobs threatened when you consider every school. I think the choices are basically 'have scholarships' or 'don't have college athletics at all', I don't think there is any real 'we will pay the athletes' solution that can work for anyone but the highest profile programs at the highest profile schools.

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Nebu
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Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 11:19:51 AM

Stadium employees, all sorts of athletic department staff at colleges, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it was literally hundreds of thousands of jobs threatened when you consider every school. I think the choices are basically 'have scholarships' or 'don't have college athletics at all', I don't think there is any real 'we will pay the athletes' solution that can work for anyone but the highest profile programs at the highest profile schools.

An NFL and NBA farm system would create plenty of jobs.  I doubt there would be a net loss.  If there were, it would be because the fat would be trimmed off of the system. 

The NCAA is fucking over student athletes much like the rich fuck over the poor.  They dangle the allure of a professional contract in front of student athletes knowing full well that most will never achieve it. 

We should just move this over to the "Slavery is now a business model" thread. 

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Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 11:21:28 AM

In football and men's basketball. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of athletes in other sports that would be absolutely crushed by losing their scholarships. Nobody's making a dime off of women's water polo, but the kids are getting an education out of the deal and doing something they love at the same time. That's worth preserving, no?

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ghost
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Reply #21 on: March 28, 2011, 11:23:56 AM

In football and men's basketball. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of athletes in other sports that would be absolutely crushed by losing their scholarships. Nobody's making a dime off of women's water polo, but the kids are getting an education out of the deal and doing something they love at the same time. That's worth preserving, no?

I guess it would be okay if they were getting a degree in water polo.  But they aren't.  There are tons of kids that get scholarships due to academic or musical or art prowess and then get a degree in that field.  I like college sports, but think they should probably be a peripheral thing.  I went to a DIII school and nobody got scholarships and we still had sports that were fun and interesting. 
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Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 11:25:49 AM

I fully support club sports.  They build community and social bonds at a school.  Unfortunately, commuter schools all but killed the community aspect. 

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Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 11:33:23 AM

In football and men's basketball. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of athletes in other sports that would be absolutely crushed by losing their scholarships. Nobody's making a dime off of women's water polo, but the kids are getting an education out of the deal and doing something they love at the same time. That's worth preserving, no?

I guess it would be okay if they were getting a degree in water polo.  But they aren't.  There are tons of kids that get scholarships due to academic or musical or art prowess and then get a degree in that field.  I like college sports, but think they should probably be a peripheral thing.  I went to a DIII school and nobody got scholarships and we still had sports that were fun and interesting. 

You're still taking away an option that some kids have to get an education when they might otherwise not be able to attend college at all. You can look at any of these schools and see some pretty remarkable success stories amongst the one-and-done failure types.

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ghost
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Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 11:36:15 AM

In football and men's basketball. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of athletes in other sports that would be absolutely crushed by losing their scholarships. Nobody's making a dime off of women's water polo, but the kids are getting an education out of the deal and doing something they love at the same time. That's worth preserving, no?

I guess it would be okay if they were getting a degree in water polo.  But they aren't.  There are tons of kids that get scholarships due to academic or musical or art prowess and then get a degree in that field.  I like college sports, but think they should probably be a peripheral thing.  I went to a DIII school and nobody got scholarships and we still had sports that were fun and interesting. 

You're still taking away an option that some kids have to get an education when they might otherwise not be able to attend college at all. You can look at any of these schools and see some pretty remarkable success stories amongst the one-and-done failure types.
 
No argument to that.  Still lost even more are the stories of the people that work three jobs to get through their education while maintaining a high GPA.  That is why I can appreciate the athletes who "get a break", but I don't particularly dig the favoritism that athletes seem to get. 
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Reply #25 on: March 28, 2011, 11:49:23 AM

In football and men's basketball. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of athletes in other sports that would be absolutely crushed by losing their scholarships. Nobody's making a dime off of women's water polo, but the kids are getting an education out of the deal and doing something they love at the same time. That's worth preserving, no?

Nope. I am fully in favor of making scholarships entirely academic and merit based. Poor kid with good grades? Scholarship. Brilliant kid? Scholarship. Underpriviledged youth with good work ethic? Scholarship.

Chick with medium grades who can spike a volleyball? Exactly why should I care? Why should any of us care as a society? If the total point is to get an education, then do it. Get the grades in high school and take your tests, and get it done.

I think doing away with the sports scholarships would lead to better colleges, personally.

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Reply #26 on: March 29, 2011, 04:48:17 AM

Stadium employees, all sorts of athletic department staff at colleges, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it was literally hundreds of thousands of jobs threatened when you consider every school. I think the choices are basically 'have scholarships' or 'don't have college athletics at all', I don't think there is any real 'we will pay the athletes' solution that can work for anyone but the highest profile programs at the highest profile schools.

Yeah, because colleges and universities primarily exist to employ people who have nothing to do with their core mission. There are a perishingly small number of college sports franchises that actually make enough money to offset their costs. The rest suck money away from instruction and administration, often very large sums. There are tons of college stadiums that have been built with public money in the last ten years that struggle to fill 25% of their seats and which drain money out of their university's coffers to pay those stadium employees and costs, again at the cost of instruction. All those cheap adjunct classes taught to 500 or more students at public universities? In many cases they have a direct relationship to stadium employees etcetera.
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Reply #27 on: March 29, 2011, 06:41:04 AM

Also, I don't know about your team, but the Unversity of Georgia gets local volunteers to do all the concessions as a fundraiser for their school or something.

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Nebu
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Reply #28 on: March 29, 2011, 07:27:14 AM

Also, I don't know about your team, but the Unversity of Georgia gets local volunteers to do all the concessions as a fundraiser for their school or something.

Funny how people will band together to help a sports team but do so little to support academics.  America, fuck yeah!

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Reply #29 on: March 29, 2011, 08:22:51 AM

I think you may be misreading what he's saying (or I am).  Those people that volunteer to do concessions often make money for their own organization/school/team not necessarily just for the school.  You get a lot of high schools and traveling sports teams running the concessions at UofA football games.  It probably beats the pants off a bake sale or car wash.

Personally, I don't care to see the current atheletics system change beyond cleaning up the tax abuses.  It's been such a source of personal enjoyment, community identity and family bonding that this is one of the very few situations that I'm going to say "Yes, all good points", cover my eyes/ears, hold my nose, and renew my season tickets for another year.


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Paelos
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Reply #30 on: March 29, 2011, 08:41:32 AM

Yep, the volunteers are in it for the $$$, yo. They get to keep a portion of the concession take for their organization. That's why they do it.

The University gets almost free labor with no overhead attached. It's all based on sales income.

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ghost
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Reply #31 on: March 29, 2011, 08:47:37 AM

Well, to further Nebu's side of the debate, a great many of these volunteer organizations are designed to support high school or other level sports. 
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Reply #32 on: March 29, 2011, 08:48:15 AM

I think you may be misreading what he's saying (or I am).  Those people that volunteer to do concessions often make money for their own organization/school/team not necessarily just for the school.  You get a lot of high schools and traveling sports teams running the concessions at UofA football games.  It probably beats the pants off a bake sale or car wash.

My bad.  Sorry Paelos.  I need to up my caffeine levels before responding!

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Reply #33 on: March 29, 2011, 08:54:25 AM

No worries, ghost makes a good point. They are just volunteering to help their own high school teams usually or cheerleaders or band. It's a vicious cycle of helping!  awesome, for real

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Reply #34 on: March 29, 2011, 11:05:10 AM

Stadium employees, all sorts of athletic department staff at colleges, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it was literally hundreds of thousands of jobs threatened when you consider every school. I think the choices are basically 'have scholarships' or 'don't have college athletics at all', I don't think there is any real 'we will pay the athletes' solution that can work for anyone but the highest profile programs at the highest profile schools.

Yeah, because colleges and universities primarily exist to employ people who have nothing to do with their core mission. There are a perishingly small number of college sports franchises that actually make enough money to offset their costs. The rest suck money away from instruction and administration, often very large sums. There are tons of college stadiums that have been built with public money in the last ten years that struggle to fill 25% of their seats and which drain money out of their university's coffers to pay those stadium employees and costs, again at the cost of instruction. All those cheap adjunct classes taught to 500 or more students at public universities? In many cases they have a direct relationship to stadium employees etcetera.

They don't suck a whole lot of money away from instruction and administration, they mostly suck money away from donors and the football program, at least at my own school from everything I've been able to dig up about it. And most of those donors would just not give money if the programs they're supporting went away, rather than say 'well, I guess I'll give it to the anthropology department instead!'

Quote
personal enjoyment, community identity and family bonding

Yeah, this.

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