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Author Topic: Gripes, complaints and irritations.  (Read 250658 times)
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #525 on: April 25, 2011, 06:12:08 AM

Well I think I'm done with the game. Got to 50, did a bunch of T1 experts and realized I was just grinding away for no reason. The dungeons are kinda fun but so long that they feel tedious and even 2hr is just more time than I want to spend. Maxxing apothecary wasn't terribly hard and my warr has a shiny full set of t1 plaque gear which incidentally makes grinding dailies pointless now since the gear is on par with even the epic mathosian stuff.

So now my warr just putzes around when I log on, sometimes doing dailies but mostly spamming the channels looking for a T2 group which there arent many people doing on my server. I'd level another character but I'd be doing the same exact quests all over again and that just rubs me the wrong way.

Fun game just not nearly enough happening for max levels.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Xanthippe
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Reply #526 on: April 25, 2011, 06:33:50 AM

It's a rare "drop" that you get from picking Twilight Bloom.  It gives you an item that starts a quest that bring you to the forager in Meridian who in turn gives you a quest to craft some shit.  Then you get a recipe for it as a reward.  The problem is it's fucking rare.  I have three fulls stacks of 50 Twilight Bloom.  Nothing yet.

I'm running into a similar problem with polished mahogany.  I have almost 3 full stacks of mahogany.  I did, however, get the first distillate recipe pretty quick.  Meanwhile, I've thrown away 3 cloth recipes (since I'm not an outfitter on my mage).
Xanthippe
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Reply #527 on: April 25, 2011, 06:36:41 AM

Ailion the Rogue Dev or Adam Gershowitz have zero idea on how to balance classes or at least rogues.  They're nerfing Bards again.

I need the biggest facepalm graphic ever.

Jesus fucking christ.

Nerfing bards?  Why?  It doesn't take long enough yet to kill shit?  Mediocre dps and mediocre healing and mediocre buffing needs to be nerfed?

Azuredream
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Reply #528 on: April 25, 2011, 06:56:17 AM

They made a mistake with the patch notes. They weren't nerfed.

The Lord of the Land approaches..
Draegan
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Reply #529 on: April 25, 2011, 07:39:48 AM

I know.  I love bards so much I solo with one.  I don't understand, what, are we still useful?  I guess every rogue should have a pig and a gun. 



Bards are still very usefull, they're just incredibly boring to play mechanics wise.  The more people you're grouped with the more tedius and boring it becomes.

For example in raids, an Archon has better debuffs than you.  So a Bard is responsible for Combat Run Speed aura.  Refreshing 5 motifs every 30 seconds. and spamming Cadence->Coda of Restoration.

That's it.  The healing isn't that great either unless you have a handful of different trinkets (that never drop, fuck you random number generator) and a collection of healing greater essences.
Numtini
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Reply #530 on: April 27, 2011, 05:06:38 AM

I think my biggest critique is that at least for DPS its most effective to chain everything in a macro to one or two buttons and mash them. Feels like going back to EQ.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Nebu
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Reply #531 on: April 27, 2011, 07:28:09 AM

I think my biggest critique is that at least for DPS its most effective to chain everything in a macro to one or two buttons and mash them. Feels like going back to EQ.

I'm under the impression that people using macros are playing a different game than I am.  Macro users are playing the "maximize dps/healing spreadsheet game" for their fun.  Sadly, they put enough peer pressure on others that macro use is almost expected by people running dungeons regularly. 

I blame the developers.  If a macro makes your play much more successful than the human decision process, then your implementation of combat mechanics fails. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Hutch
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Reply #532 on: April 27, 2011, 07:41:39 AM

I think my biggest critique is that at least for DPS its most effective to chain everything in a macro to one or two buttons and mash them. Feels like going back to EQ.

I'm under the impression that people using macros are playing a different game than I am.  Macro users are playing the "maximize dps/healing spreadsheet game" for their fun.  Sadly, they put enough peer pressure on others that macro use is almost expected by people running dungeons regularly. 

I blame the developers.  If a macro makes your play much more successful than the human decision process, then your implementation of combat mechanics fails. 

I went to using macros on my BM/Champ build for two main reasons.
1) Much more frequent use of reactive/cooldown abilities, thereby increasing my damage output.
2) Cleared up a ton of space on my hotbars, reducing my need to remember where everything is.

Seriously, I have compressed roughly 12 abilities down into four macros. (Two for single-target, two for cleave/aoe abilities.) There was no way to keep track of everything when they were on their own buttons, even with the big power-aura-like icons that pop up when your reactives become available.

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Haven't you noticed? We've been sharing our culture with you all morning.
The sun will shine on us again, brother
Numtini
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Reply #533 on: April 27, 2011, 07:49:09 AM

I did the same thing with my warrior btw. Using macros is obviously superior. But in terms of DPS roles, it's completely snoozeworthy.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Nebu
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Reply #534 on: April 27, 2011, 07:55:23 AM

I understand Hutch.  Playing the Shaman was an eye opener.  I'm going to grab a parser to check this out.  I'm going to monitor my shaman dps for 5 mins with and without macros.  I'll bet that macros give a 20-30% increase in damage output.  

If you're going to give players this big an advantage using a macro, then you should probably just reduce the number of buttons for all users.  It just creates a society of haves and have-nots otherwise.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Threash
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Reply #535 on: April 27, 2011, 08:07:36 AM

Why is that? everyone can use macros, there is no have nots.

I am the .00000001428%
Nebu
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Reply #536 on: April 27, 2011, 08:11:11 AM

Why is that? everyone can use macros, there is no have nots.

Do you really think an 11 year old, or hell a 50 year old for that matter, is going to make elegant ordered macros for their character?  I'll bet that 80% of the playerbase doesn't know how to properly order and/or script a solid combat macro.  It's like saying everyone has a hammer.  Why can't they all build houses?

If macro use is a necessary part of the game, then making a good macro should be part of the leveling process. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 08:14:08 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Threash
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Reply #537 on: April 27, 2011, 08:17:34 AM

I don't know how to make an elegant organized macro, i still have them.  Cause i can read.

I am the .00000001428%
Nebu
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Reply #538 on: April 27, 2011, 08:20:21 AM

I don't know how to make an elegant organized macro, i still have them.  Cause i can read.

I am a university professor.  Let me assure you that the fact that you can read and comprehend puts you into a minority in the US.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Lantyssa
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Reply #539 on: April 27, 2011, 08:38:13 AM

Why is that? everyone can use macros, there is no have nots.
A friend is playing with Vu.  They reached the 40s recently, and it wasn't until yesterday that Vu walked her through making her first macro.

Some people don't even think about the idea of making macros.  Each ability has a button.  The game is about pressing buttons.  It doesn't occur to them to combine button presses.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Nerf
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Reply #540 on: April 27, 2011, 09:51:28 AM

It doesn't really matter until you get into t1/t2 content, and moreso t2 content.  Normal dungeons, leveling up, etc, you can more or less just button mash and everything will work out OK.  It's when things start turning into a DPS race while ALSO forcing you to do the hokey-pokey during all the boss fights or wipe instantly that you need to streamline it.

I'll post some parses from GSB/ROS later when I get home and you guys can see some of the disparity between players, even running the same build with relatively the same gear.
Nebu
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Reply #541 on: April 27, 2011, 09:58:25 AM

So, it's all but expected that you macro in order to be successful at the late game content.  That's hilarious in terms of game design.  "We've given you dozens of unique abilities so that you can cram them into 4 macros.  You're welcome!"

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nerf
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The Presence of Your Vehicle Has Been Documented


Reply #542 on: April 27, 2011, 10:09:03 AM

Depends on the class.  For stormcaller, your current highest-dps rotation cannot use any macros at all*, where for chloromancer it just makes your life a whole lot easier.

Greenscale, for example, requires you to be ready to move *all the time*.  Think the boss in RD that spawns mushrooms, but 20x as many, 3 different types, and they'll murder your ass in a heartbeat.

Only needing to rely on 1 button for your main healing rotation, and the other buttons for situational ohshits makes it a lot less stressful when dodging that shit and constantly moving.  You could probably be 95% as effective without the macro, but you'd need drugs stronger than Excedrin to not /wrists after 4 hours of it.

*All Instants/no cd/situational spells.

Raging storm->ice shear->LFx5->thunderbolt->ice shear->LFx5->........
Static flux+intensify elements+static discharge (in that order) on cooldown
Once they fix the lightning strike bug in 1.2, it'll end up getting worked into the macro unless it's a high movement fight.

Here's a SS of the breakdown of the 4 stormcallers during plutonus last night.  This is an aggregate of 5 attempts.  DPS is damage/players duration, EXT dps is damange/encounter duration.
Extdps is what we use for comparison metrics for the most part.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:13:07 AM by Nerf »
Threash
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Reply #543 on: April 27, 2011, 04:53:59 PM

So, it's all but expected that you macro in order to be successful at the late game content.  That's hilarious in terms of game design.  "We've given you dozens of unique abilities so that you can cram them into 4 macros.  You're welcome!"

I much prefer it to the alternative of having dozens of unique abilities i have to keep different hot keys for.

I am the .00000001428%
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #544 on: April 27, 2011, 06:07:52 PM

Nerf's post, while I applaud the dedication and attention devoted, just makes me want to stop playing the game because I will never be involved enough to care enough to do any of that.

And I was told before this game has nothing to do with spreadsheets...  Ohhhhh, I see.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Draegan
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Reply #545 on: April 27, 2011, 07:32:58 PM

Uhh it doesn't?  Unless you want to squeeze out that last 2% dps. 

I assume with the attitude you have towards this game, you'll never be involved in the sort of thing where you really need to worry about spreadsheets. 

I mean any game with numbers will have spreadsheets.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #546 on: April 27, 2011, 08:46:44 PM

Normal dungeons, leveling up, etc, you can more or less just button mash and everything will work out OK. 

I think it's funny that, at least in this brief moment of your post, the opposite of 'use macros' became 'button mashing' -- when of course the only conceivable advantage to not using macros is to increase control over what abilities you use.

Personally I tend to use one or two macros, with my reactive abilities separated out, etc.

I like macros because almost by definition the thing they are replacing is not interesting -- it's the basic activity, the baseline of DPS or healing or whatever that has an obvious, optimal solution 90%+ of the time. If you can make a macro that is as good or almost as good as the thoughtful application of the same abilities, then it might as well be one button, so that you can focus your attention and your fingers on whatever's left over.

Of course if nothing is left over (hello bards), that's kind of a problem. But as Nerf says, at least you can run around dodging the spikes/flaming orbs/giant mushrooms while pressing your button.

And on the other side you have the specs where what's 'left over' is basically the entirety of your abilities. Tanking vs. melee dps is a huge gulf in terms of attentiveness required, just in terms of 'where is the button I want to be pressing now' -- let alone the part where you have to pay attention to the actual fight.

Rasix
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I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #547 on: April 27, 2011, 08:48:31 PM

Nerf's post, while I applaud the dedication and attention devoted, just makes me want to stop playing the game because I will never be involved enough to care enough to do any of that.

And I was told before this game has nothing to do with spreadsheets...  Ohhhhh, I see.

It's Nerf.  He comes from a combination of EVE and insanity.  He could spreadsheet a vasectomy.

But yah, any game with statistics will have a tool to analyze those statistics.  This is not new.

-Rasix
Lantyssa
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Reply #548 on: April 28, 2011, 08:24:57 AM

Or a renter's dispute.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
AcidCat
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Reply #549 on: April 28, 2011, 08:26:28 AM

Nerf's post, while I applaud the dedication and attention devoted, just makes me want to stop playing the game because I will never be involved enough to care enough to do any of that.

You're not the only one, I never play these games that seriously - but there will always be those on the bleeding edge calculating percentages. I also have an initial tendency to be put off by that kinda thing - but I have to remind myself that there are a lot of ways to have fun in these games, and to each their own. I'm happy enough running through a forest hitting creeps with a stick and getting new pants once in a while.
Xanthippe
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Reply #550 on: April 28, 2011, 07:30:07 PM


It's Nerf.  He comes from a combination of EVE and insanity.  He could spreadsheet a vasectomy.


I would like to see that.
Bzalthek
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Reply #551 on: April 28, 2011, 10:01:46 PM

See, Nerf is why I play these games (finals are almost over, stop bitching).  I don't have to do spreadsheets to assist my dmg or e-meter or whatever it's called these days, I just have to wait for him or others like him.  People like Nerf make my gaming life easier.

"Pity hurricanes aren't actually caused by gays; I would take a shot in the mouth right now if it meant wiping out these chucklefucks." ~WayAbvPar
March
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Reply #552 on: May 05, 2011, 02:11:36 PM

Artifacts.

Should be tracked at the account level, not at the character level; rewards (such as they are) should be BoA.

I kinda like finding artifacts, but completely lose all interest owing to the complete mishmash of collections across 4 characters.

Minor: while the sparkle egg is in keeping with the whole easter egg thing... I suspect I would prefer a sparkle object for two reasons 1) I think it would look cooler, 2) I could avoid grabbing the same old mushroom for the nth time.
Threash
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Reply #553 on: May 05, 2011, 04:06:03 PM

You could just send them all to one char.

I am the .00000001428%
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #554 on: May 05, 2011, 05:00:43 PM

You could just send them all to one char.

I have spent probably 10 platinum (at least) compulsively mailing artifacts between my 4 alts. More importantly, I have spent hours managing the aforementioned mailbox madness. This is simply a failure of game design. If artifacts are tradeable, then obviously they expect people with alts to do what I am doing -- and what I am doing is stupid and frustrating and makes me want to stop collecting artifacts. If artifacts were bind on pickup then this would merely be a weird design choice (compared to having them be account-wide collections) -- but when they are tradeable, there is no excuse. The designers have specifically chosen to encourage players to perform incredibly tedious micromanagement in order to maximize the feeling of reward from what should be a fun, breezy, as-you-go-along activity.

Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #555 on: May 05, 2011, 06:15:56 PM

You could just send them all to one char.

I have spent probably 10 platinum (at least) compulsively mailing artifacts between my 4 alts. More importantly, I have spent hours managing the aforementioned mailbox madness. This is simply a failure of game design. If artifacts are tradeable, then obviously they expect people with alts to do what I am doing -- and what I am doing is stupid and frustrating and makes me want to stop collecting artifacts. If artifacts were bind on pickup then this would merely be a weird design choice (compared to having them be account-wide collections) -- but when they are tradeable, there is no excuse. The designers have specifically chosen to encourage players to perform incredibly tedious micromanagement in order to maximize the feeling of reward from what should be a fun, breezy, as-you-go-along activity.



Half of this problem would have been solved before it existed had they not gone with "the Vision" (or lack thereof) that ruled out shared bank slots and opted instead for money-sinks-till-it-hurts everywhere (inventory space and mailing costs in this case). That would have completely avoided the frustration and annoyance of trying to share artifacts between alts all while dealing with inadequate inventory space.  But they chose Vision over Fun. 

The other half of the problem is that collecting itself has become frustrating and boring.  And I usually love collecting.  I'm not entirely sure why, but I suspect it has something to do with there being too many collections (for the number of sparklies) per zone, such that if you quest your way through each zone at anything close to a steady rate you will probably not complete ANY collections in the entire game!  Even putting in some serious time exploring and gathering/collecting plus buying the occasional cheap filler from the auction house has left me with a grand total of 16 completed collections at level 46.  Having to wade through hundreds of gray aggro mobs (another Vision-induced blind spot) to find stuff you missed at the lower levels definitely doesn't contribute any fun to the process either.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #556 on: May 05, 2011, 06:34:56 PM

Oh, another gripe: why is auto-follow so damn fragile?  You basically can't do ANYTHING that involves a mouse-click while on autofollow or you risk breaking it. I've had it break while managing the quest log, moving stuff around in inventory, talking to NPC's, accepting or turning in a quest, and various other innocuous wtf did it do that for occasions.  Combine that with having to basically have your horse's nose in the next horse's butt to start following makes it a serious and frequent irritation. I think they may have some issues with mouse clicks bleeding through whatever UI component you were clicking on and the game then treating it as a movement command.  I don't use click-to-move, so that shouldn't be happening, but it seems like a click often breaks autofollow THEN gets checked to see if it actually meant anything that should break it.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Nebu
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Reply #557 on: May 06, 2011, 07:58:14 AM

I have spent probably 10 platinum (at least) compulsively mailing artifacts between my 4 alts. More importantly, I have spent hours managing the aforementioned mailbox madness. This is simply a failure of game design. If artifacts are tradeable, then obviously they expect people with alts to do what I am doing -- and what I am doing is stupid and frustrating and makes me want to stop collecting artifacts. If artifacts were bind on pickup then this would merely be a weird design choice (compared to having them be account-wide collections) -- but when they are tradeable, there is no excuse. The designers have specifically chosen to encourage players to perform incredibly tedious micromanagement in order to maximize the feeling of reward from what should be a fun, breezy, as-you-go-along activity.

Does this mean that you're playing again?  That would make me happy!

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
shiznitz
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Reply #558 on: May 06, 2011, 10:18:08 AM

You could just send them all to one char.

I have spent probably 10 platinum (at least) compulsively mailing artifacts between my 4 alts. More importantly, I have spent hours managing the aforementioned mailbox madness. This is simply a failure of game design. If artifacts are tradeable, then obviously they expect people with alts to do what I am doing -- and what I am doing is stupid and frustrating and makes me want to stop collecting artifacts. If artifacts were bind on pickup then this would merely be a weird design choice (compared to having them be account-wide collections) -- but when they are tradeable, there is no excuse. The designers have specifically chosen to encourage players to perform incredibly tedious micromanagement in order to maximize the feeling of reward from what should be a fun, breezy, as-you-go-along activity.



EQ2 had some bank slots that were accessible to all characters on an account. It has been done before and sounds like it should be replicated.

I have never played WoW.
Rasix
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I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #559 on: May 06, 2011, 10:44:28 AM

MMOs need to get rid of group only quests for leveling content.  If you want to stick a big bad killer mob out there, do so.  But don't have it gate my quests.  Give us an achievement or something for killing it.

I'm not against having hard quests.  I think MMO leveling could have a bit more difficulty, but elite mob nonsense is just bullshit.


-Rasix
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