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Author Topic: Gripes, complaints and irritations.  (Read 250676 times)
Segoris
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Reply #350 on: March 18, 2011, 09:10:42 AM

I can get that, and honestly wouldn't mind not grabbing that 3rd soul about level 10-12 as part of a quest which leads into talking to the trainer in Meridian to find out that you should talk with the souls representatives to learn how to earn more souls from that point onwards. I wouldn't mind that at all, but I don't feel the need to change the current system is really that important and am happy with it. Yeah it was tacked on, but sometimes that's okay.
Draegan
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Reply #351 on: March 18, 2011, 10:43:31 AM

It's not the variety of souls in the beginning that is the problem so much as dozens of abilities even at low levels, most of which are redundant. I'm not saying every soul shouldn't have distinct abilities but the way they implemented them is pretty  swamp poop

This could easily have been solved by only getting the base abilities from a primary soul and moving a lot of the crossover skills to the upper tree so that you actually choose them. For instance: My warrior does three near identical weapon strikes but the spear in his secondary soul is something unique so put the spear in the upper tree and all the crossover stuff in the bottom tree, make me never need the bottom tree and don't give me access to it.

Rift has some great choices but nearly any spec you pick you are going to have a glut of abilities you simply will not use and that's poor design and very confusing to new player.

It's only confusing to people who don't get it.

In any case, there were some souls that used to not get basic attacks.  Some souls were designed for groups only so they weren't sufficient for soloing.  They moved away from this giving each soul basic attacks.  That's why you have overlap.

Could of it been designed better? Of course.  But the way the system evolved over time is why you have what you have now.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #352 on: March 18, 2011, 10:53:55 AM

Quote
It's only confusing to people who don't get it.

 awesome, for real

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Typhon
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Reply #353 on: March 18, 2011, 11:21:23 AM

Warrior - I forget

BM - pet
RB - 100% weapon dmg as dot on crits weapon buff
VK - 5% less magic dmg taken
Warlord -  -5% hit chance on enemies around you
pali - 10% block chance melee ability

Paragon, champion and reaver don't really give anything other than their standard melee abilities at 0 points.



Bullrush Goddmanit! Bullrush!!!  WoW warriors wish they got a closer like bullrush.
Threash
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Reply #354 on: March 18, 2011, 11:22:28 AM

At zero points it cant be used in combat, it doesnt stun or root either though.  I guess its decent enough to start combat with.

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Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #355 on: March 18, 2011, 03:34:28 PM

It's only confusing to people who don't get it.

Honestly.

So far we have three people in this thread suggesting that they felt their own play experience was negatively impacted by this. These 'where are these people who hate choice?' or 'those are just some [other people] who don't understand MMOs' comments are either veiled insults or a sign that the issue is simply not being processed.

Everyone who has said they think the 1-2-6 progression is good has framed it entirely as 'the old way was worse!' and all those people also appear to have played in the beta. The original comment was not about the old system, and the old system being worse does not make the new system ideal. Playing in beta hardly invalidates someone's opinions but I do have to suggest that maybe you guys had internalized a mastery (or at least knowledge) of the soul system by the point that this new progression was introduced, and that this makes understanding a new player's experience somewhat more difficult -- in this case three new players have provided their actual experience, and it still has not penetrated that their experience might be valid or even representative.

For an alt or someone who has played around with the soul system in advance, the progression is obviously just fine, because they already know what is going on -- these are choices they already understand based on previous experience. They can even take advantage of those 0-pt powers and gain some immediate mechanical benefit from the third soul (though most of my alts just took a third soul that would be useful as a primary soul in a secondary role, instead.) But those are only the people who made it that far.

Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #356 on: March 18, 2011, 03:54:56 PM

Warrior - I forget

BM - pet
RB - 100% weapon dmg as dot on crits weapon buff
VK - 5% less magic dmg taken
Warlord -  -5% hit chance on enemies around you
pali - 10% block chance melee ability

Paragon, champion and reaver don't really give anything other than their standard melee abilities at 0 points.

Champion gets Bull Rush, very very handy, plus I think maybe they also get the highest damage single target finishing move a warrior gets?

On souls coming too soon, I was frustrated as hell at having to wait till 14 to get more than three!  Given that is supposedly one of the strengths of this game, I wanted to try them all out before I settled on a build or two that I liked.  As it was I ended up swapping over to a completely different set than I started with by 15.  While I'm one that can get paralyzed by too many choices, the fact that i knew going in that I would not be locked in to some of those choices for hardly any time at all made it a LOT easier to just pick something and try it out rather than feel like I needed to go researching every possible repercussion pending from a choice prior to making it.

And wtf is it with you people that want to restrict others from making choices you don't want to make?  You don't HAVE to slot a third soul, do you?  You certainly don't have to use it!  Isn't it enough for you that pretty much EVERYONE who tried it the way you say you want it didn't like it and prefers it this way???  If you don't want to deal with the information, IGNORE IT.  Don't go trying to deny everyone else that info just because you can't handle it.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #357 on: March 18, 2011, 04:19:43 PM

It really isnt that you get SO MANY CHOICES, it's that most of the choices are stupid and overlap so much.

Imagine this.

2 talents points each level, 100 points total at level 50.
You only get the bottom tree abilities from your main soul, freeing up the rest of the points to use between secondary and tertiary souls.
Some bottom tree abilities are made into soul tree abilities to compensate.

The illusions of choice isn't choice.

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Cadaverine
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Reply #358 on: March 18, 2011, 04:27:59 PM

You don't HAVE to slot a third soul, do you?

I know I've seen level 1 spam bots at the mail box in Freemarch, so you can skip the quests to get the 2nd, or 3rd, soul if you really, really, really want to not have it, and just go to the rift event at the end.  Since Guardians need to click on the corpse w/ the hammer to leave, they would have kowtow to the cruel overlords of Trion, and take the 2nd, and 3rd souls.

I don't know what impact skipping the tutorial quests, and heading straight for Freemarch would have, but it probably wouldn't hinder you too much.

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #359 on: March 18, 2011, 05:12:04 PM


Good grief. This is a discussion about general user experience, not about how I personally am all upset at getting too many choices. Nor is it some personal attack on your freedom of choice. It's a discussion about when and how the additional active souls should be introduced, and the impact of having them come so quickly. You can say 'it wasn't a problem for me' without throwing in 'and therefore you are wrong wrong wrong and also stop taking my pie'.

If you agree that this issue impacts people -- suggesting that these same people are going to intuit that they can harmlessly skip a quest that gives them a second or third class, or have any tools with which to evaluate whether or not this is going to be overwhelming or not prior to making that decision... I mean that just sounds like a total unwillingness to even engage with what this could be like for people who are not you. And not even the past you, who played the game for the first time, but the current you who has all this extra information that includes knowing you can skip these quests and come back to the souls later.


Draegan
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Reply #360 on: March 18, 2011, 05:29:49 PM

It's only confusing to people who don't get it.

Honestly.

So far we have three people in this thread suggesting that they felt their own play experience was negatively impacted by this. These 'where are these people who hate choice?' or 'those are just some [other people] who don't understand MMOs' comments are either veiled insults or a sign that the issue is simply not being processed.

Everyone who has said they think the 1-2-6 progression is good has framed it entirely as 'the old way was worse!' and all those people also appear to have played in the beta. The original comment was not about the old system, and the old system being worse does not make the new system ideal. Playing in beta hardly invalidates someone's opinions but I do have to suggest that maybe you guys had internalized a mastery (or at least knowledge) of the soul system by the point that this new progression was introduced, and that this makes understanding a new player's experience somewhat more difficult -- in this case three new players have provided their actual experience, and it still has not penetrated that their experience might be valid or even representative.

For an alt or someone who has played around with the soul system in advance, the progression is obviously just fine, because they already know what is going on -- these are choices they already understand based on previous experience. They can even take advantage of those 0-pt powers and gain some immediate mechanical benefit from the third soul (though most of my alts just took a third soul that would be useful as a primary soul in a secondary role, instead.) But those are only the people who made it that far.



I've never honestly said this in earnest before, but people who are truly confused by the system to the point where they can complain about it, really need to learn how to play video games better.

Regarding, already being familiar as they changed it, it was almost unanimous even with new players, that the old way was less fun.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #361 on: March 18, 2011, 05:35:42 PM

I've never honestly said this in earnest before, but people who are truly confused by the system to the point where they can complain about it, really need to learn how to play video games better.

I've said this many times in earnest before, but god damn do I hope you have nothing to do with the development of any software, ever, anywhere. I work in user experience and this sort of attitude -- and the bizarre understanding of reality, pedagogy, and psychology that it implies -- makes my brain bleed.
Nerf
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Reply #362 on: March 18, 2011, 05:59:23 PM

You don't HAVE to slot a third soul, do you?

I know I've seen level 1 spam bots at the mail box in Freemarch, so you can skip the quests to get the 2nd, or 3rd, soul if you really, really, really want to not have it, and just go to the rift event at the end.  Since Guardians need to click on the corpse w/ the hammer to leave, they would have kowtow to the cruel overlords of Trion, and take the 2nd, and 3rd souls.

I don't know what impact skipping the tutorial quests, and heading straight for Freemarch would have, but it probably wouldn't hinder you too much.

As a guardian, you can leave with only 2 souls - I missed one of them somehow and didn't get my 3rd until 15 or so.

Didn't really bother me, it was a 0pt anyways, but the insta DD from domi would've been useful.
Azuredream
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Reply #363 on: March 18, 2011, 06:06:41 PM

So I guess people were gearing out too fast, or something, and now T2 expert dungeons reward 4 plaques upon completion rather than 15. It's 2 per boss and there's an average of 6 bosses in a T2. It's gone from 25/27/29 plaques to 14/16/18. If you don't get any epic drops from the T2s and you have to buy every single piece of T2 plaque gear, it's 1000 plaques.

I've been having a lot of fun with Rift and it was a no-brainer that I was going to at least give it another month but now I'm really not sure.

The Lord of the Land approaches..
Abelian75
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Reply #364 on: March 18, 2011, 06:17:22 PM


I've never honestly said this in earnest before, but people who are truly confused by the system to the point where they can complain about it, really need to learn how to play video games better.

Regarding, already being familiar as they changed it, it was almost unanimous even with new players, that the old way was less fun.

It's not the people who complain about it that you need to worry about, really.  In some sense it's impossible to really "complain" about it, as understanding the issue enough to bring it up sort of implies that you are able to look past it and look at the game as a whole.  The problem is the people that just aren't grabbed by the game in the first few minutes of play.

And as has been said, it isn't a binary choice, etc, etc.  The old way may have been less fun than the new way, but it's also possible that both versions were terrible.

I think the difference here is really the perspective you're looking at the game from.  Like Emperor said, I'm not really talking about how it affects me, or any of us.  I'm talking about the effect on the game in general, for all possible people.

And yeah, you can miss the second soul, because it's the third/fourth quest in the game on the guardian side.  When you complete the second quest in the game, the dude standing next to the person you turned your quest into pops up an !, along with the person you are talking to.  If you manage to miss that, you don't get your second soul (which really isn't a big deal, being that it's totally fine to have two souls until level 15).
Koyasha
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Reply #365 on: March 18, 2011, 06:47:07 PM

Well, I will say that the 1-2-6 progression is good and I never experienced the old one because I only started playing this game when they did that last open beta week.  I feel like it would be a terrible thing to wait until after 10 to unlock that third soul, especially since the third soul can give a very useful ability even with 0 points in it.  Now, if they shifted the second one back a few quests, so it doesn't come in like 3 quests after you start, sure, that'd be fine.  Give you a little more time to get used to it before giving your second soul.  But you should certainly get all three before leaving the starting area and going back/forward in time.

The one improvement I would like to see is a way to switch your selected souls before leaving the starting area.  You don't get much info on what these souls will do before taking them, although you can preview them in these games nothing really compares to personal experience, so having say, the Faceless Man who gives you the third soul now, or whoever it is on guardian side, allow you to switch which souls you have before leaving would be nice.  Although not really necessary, considering you can easily just get to 13 and unlock all of them.  Although I'm not quite sure why you're required to get to 13 to unlock them anyways - would be nice if you could do that at any level, as long as you have reached the capital.  If you're a newbie and you're just following breadcrumbs, you're going to be that level or higher by the time you get there, and if you know enough to make a beeline for the capital then you're not a newbie and you can get exactly what you want.

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Paelos
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Reply #366 on: March 18, 2011, 07:38:08 PM

I've never honestly said this in earnest before, but people who are truly confused by the system to the point where they can complain about it, really need to learn how to play video games better.

Regarding, already being familiar as they changed it, it was almost unanimous even with new players, that the old way was less fun.

So you're response to a player who might be overwhelmed or find it annoying to have to choose so many things at once in their first hour of gameplay is L2P?

Dude, the whole point of the starting area is to handhold the user to the point of absurdity. I don't think anyone is suggesting they hold off the choice of your character to your second or third day of play. All I was suggesting is maybe I'd like to learn what the hell one of these things does for more than 10 minutes before I'm automatically getting another, and then another.

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Polysorbate80
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Reply #367 on: March 18, 2011, 09:09:34 PM

As I'm spending another evening finding myself irritated by the rifts and invasions while running back to the same area I just left for the third round of uninspired quests, it occurs to me that this game just has not sunk its hooks into me.

Unsubbed and uninstalled.

I'm sick of WoW, and I really want to like this more, but I'm going to have to find something else to satisfy the gaming urges for a while.

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Sky
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Reply #368 on: March 18, 2011, 09:27:32 PM

I've said this many times in earnest before, but god damn do I hope you have nothing to do with the development of any software, ever, anywhere. I work in user experience and this sort of attitude -- and the bizarre understanding of reality, pedagogy, and psychology that it implies -- makes my brain bleed.

On the topic of Rift, Draegan and I often disagree. We don't disagree about this.

Is there a better way? Possibly. Trion hasn't figured it out yet. The current way is the best of many ideas. Hell, I'd expand it to disagreeing with Trion about a bunch of design decisions...but still being the best of the implementations I've seen tested.

Draegan is pretty much right about l2p. You're only a newbie once, but restrictions on newbies last for every alt you ever roll. Ok, it's overwhelming the very first time you play. I don't see that as a bad thing, it's not exactly 300-page manual wargame neck-beardy. Ye gods, mmo is already being boiled down to the most simplistic elements possible, even Doug Benson could figure out how to play a modern mmo. C'mon.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #369 on: March 18, 2011, 09:32:27 PM

Ya I'm more or less done with this game as well. I don't know, it didn't gel. The thing is, I feel like the old George Costanza bit; "It's not you, it's me." It's a really well done game, it's just, I've been here before. I don't want to grind another toon to max level before I really start the game, I just don't.

The rifts are cool, but by my third toon no one was doing them anymore. And the class system, well that thing just rocks.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #370 on: March 18, 2011, 09:35:20 PM

Quote
You're only a newbie once, but restrictions on newbies last for every alt you ever roll

Why? Honestly, why do they have to? No reason you can make alts start right after the newbie area and with all class souls, provided you hit level X on another char.

Let newbie experiences be newbie experiences, there is nothing at all wrong with hand holding in the first couple hours of a game and thats ALL we're talking about. you are out of the rift starting zones in a couple hours, jesus people get some god damned perspective....and patience.


completely different topic, I am reaaaaaally getting pissed with these quests the higher level i get. at 40 i have had to go back to the same area at LEAST twice, to kill mobs i was already killing for the first set of quests and i have to kill 16. that's it, nothing interesting about the quest at all just....hey while you're there, kill 16 dwarves.  really....really? fuck you quest giver.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Draegan
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Reply #371 on: March 18, 2011, 09:53:25 PM

If you guys want to experience the old way make a new character and only use one soul until 15.  Then at level 30 equip a third.

I mean honestly, the extra hour or two of game play isn't gong to do anything to help a player figure out which attacks to use. 
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #372 on: March 18, 2011, 10:14:27 PM

Now you're just trolling, not a single person here said they ought to go back to whatever this "old way" was.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #373 on: March 19, 2011, 12:13:18 AM

You're only a newbie once, but restrictions on newbies last for every alt you ever roll.

Conversely, you're talking about waiting maybe 4 hours of gameplay longer to get a third soul, out of hundreds if not thousands of hours of play for the game over time. The lack of a third active soul until level 13 is barely a meaningful restriction in comparison with the life of a character, particularly to an experienced player who knows exactly how to blitz through those first levels.

The new player -- the one who will either quit your game or subscribe for the next several years -- is more important than the player who already knows the game, and knows they like it, and who is really unlikely to abandon your game because making an alt results in a slightly slower power curve than it could otherwise.
Spiff
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Reply #374 on: March 19, 2011, 12:19:18 AM

Why? Honestly, why do they have to? No reason you can make alts start right after the newbie area and with all class souls, provided you hit level X on another char.

QFT, CO does this and it's one of the few things I would applaud them for.

Also, I think it's fair to say the entire start of the game (not just how and when you acquire souls) doesn't reflect the quality of what follows.
I'd almost say they did a reversed AoC (Tortage how I miss thee  Heartbreak), which is probably far better than the other way around.

LoTRO is another game that had a fairly good starter experience imo, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes to player experience as a whole though.
All things considered, probably not that much.
Threash
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Reply #375 on: March 19, 2011, 06:46:32 AM

Now you're just trolling, not a single person here said they ought to go back to whatever this "old way" was.

Lol, bs.  What people have been suggesting was exactly what the old way was.

I am the .00000001428%
Paelos
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Reply #376 on: March 19, 2011, 08:11:47 AM

Now you're just trolling, not a single person here said they ought to go back to whatever this "old way" was.

Lol, bs.  What people have been suggesting was exactly what the old way was.

The old way was getting a third soul at level 10 instead of level 5? I thought it was 20.

In any case I think it's irrelevent because it's not that complicated to figure out when you're already bought the box. You're not going to give up after that sunk cost. However, if they offered it as a demo for free at some point, I could see some new users tossing it in with their own reasons of not to bother. It certainly was in mine in the open beta. After tanking for years in WoW I don't think it was a matter of L2P as much as simple annoyance.

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Abelian75
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Reply #377 on: March 19, 2011, 08:36:11 AM

The old way was getting a third soul at level 10 instead of level 5? I thought it was 20.


Additionally, it also involved (unless I'm mistaken) giving out souls gradually throughout the leveling process.  So no, the suggestion of 1-5-10 soul acquisition (and then all remaining souls available at 15) is not particularly close to the old way.  Of course, I could be wrong, since nobody seems willing to actually detail how it used to work, instead preferring to just kind of refer to it as this demonic game system and hand wave at it whenever it is convenient to accuse someone of embracing it.

Edit: 

In any case I think it's irrelevent because it's not that complicated to figure out when you're already bought the box. You're not going to give up after that sunk cost. However, if they offered it as a demo for free at some point, I could see some new users tossing it in with their own reasons of not to bother. It certainly was in mine in the open beta. After tanking for years in WoW I don't think it was a matter of L2P as much as simple annoyance.

I don't think this is really true in general, because your first introduction to a system will color your interpretation of it for a long while.  It's not that people are going to hit this brick wall at level 2 and not play anymore, but rather that at level 15 they just won't feel connected to the game systems because they weren't introduced to them in such a way that they got particular internalized.

Now, I do need to reassert that I think this game generally has a really good user experience in a number of ways, at least compared to plenty of other MMOs.  It generally just feels like it loves you and wants you to be happy.  That's a great thing, and I'm really rooting for them overall because I want stuff like this to matter.  I just think their handling of their class system is this weird blip of painful unfriendliness to a new user, amongst a sea of general awesomesauce.  So yeah, I'm definitely not saying people will overall find it an unapproachable and unfriendly game, just that this one system risks giving that impression.  Overall, way better than the shitty average.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 08:49:41 AM by Abelian75 »
Rendakor
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Reply #378 on: March 19, 2011, 08:58:25 AM

The new player -- the one who will either quit your game or subscribe for the next several years -- is more important than the player who already knows the game, and knows they like it, and who is really unlikely to abandon your game because making an alt results in a slightly slower power curve than it could otherwise.

The issue I have with most of your argument is that you talk about the "new player" like he's never touched a computer before, but the reality is that you need the game to cater to the ex-WoW-player (or other MMO vet) because that's 99% of your population. Anyone who's played another MMO should have no problem wrapping their head around "I'm speccing for these abilities, so I should use them, while these other abilities are only situationally useful unless I spec for them."

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Reply #379 on: March 19, 2011, 09:01:51 AM

As I'm spending another evening finding myself irritated by the rifts and invasions while running back to the same area I just left for the third round of uninspired quests, it occurs to me that this game just has not sunk its hooks into me.

Played 3 of the 4 class archetypes to 30+ and I'm feeling this as well.  The only reason to run quests is money and some gear.  Seems the best way to level is to have a set group to run rifts/dungeons with repeatedly.  I really got slapped in the face by this after I had completed nearly 10 quests at a hub and received about 2/3 a bubble when I turned them all in.  Fight your way into an area, kill mob x, fight your way out, turn in quest, and get sent to the EXACT same fucking place you just cleared twice.  It gets really annoying after a while.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Abelian75
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Reply #380 on: March 19, 2011, 09:29:01 AM

The issue I have with most of your argument is that you talk about the "new player" like he's never touched a computer before, but the reality is that you need the game to cater to the ex-WoW-player (or other MMO vet) because that's 99% of your population. Anyone who's played another MMO should have no problem wrapping their head around "I'm speccing for these abilities, so I should use them, while these other abilities are only situationally useful unless I spec for them."

See, I think you're not really right about this.  I know like three people who played WoW (one of them being my wife) who couldn't tell you a damn thing about how the game systems work, never really thought about "speccing" in a system-y sense of the word, etc.  My wife played a hunter because on the class selection screen it said, "You should play a hunter if you like to solo with pets."  She read that, said out loud, "I like to solo with pets," and clicked the play button.  She specced beast mastery because she loved that goddamn cat, and would not be able to really tell you what exactly the talents did for her in any real detail.

To be sure, she's an extreme, no question.  But she did play for like a year.  Loved farming some motherfucking herbs and shit.  She watched me playing Rift and found the artifact hunting rather appealing.  You might be thinking, "Yeah, but this game isn't for those people," but my point is that it isn't that far from being very much for those people as well.

More importantly perhaps, like I said, even when you DO understand what is going on (as I did), your feeling about the stuff in the game is colored by how pleasant your first interaction with it was.  If you find yourself thinking, "Man, I wish I had a pet" and then you suddenly are given a choice of a soul that gives you a pet, you're like, "Whoa, sweet!"  A perfect opportunity for this would be to make only four rogue souls available at the start, one of them being marksman (but not ranger).  At level 5, you can choose another soul, ranger being one option.  As a marksman, you've probably already wished you had a pet to tank shit for you.  Then you see, "Holy shit, even with 0 points I can get a pet!" and it's awesome.

You can still do that, of course, but it doesn't flow as well.  When a game hits that perfect point that you find yourself wanting more just before it becomes available to you, that's good shit, even IF you would have understood it if you'd had it all from the start.

Also, please don't read too much into the comment about only four souls being available at the start.  (I know they used to do it this way, or at least I assume, since you can only be told about four souls at the start of the game via the NPCs, even though you can choose all 8.  I assume this is another relic of the hasty change.)  The marksman/ranger example  works perfectly, but I recognize that it'd be hard to really nail this in all cases and I can totally see reversing that decision, but if you could pull it off it would be an improvement imho.  It would do a lot to shift the perception of apparent redundancy into a perception of awesome enhancement.  Just by changing the pacing of the presentation.
Lantyssa
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Reply #381 on: March 19, 2011, 10:13:09 AM

Additionally, it also involved (unless I'm mistaken) giving out souls gradually throughout the leveling process.  So no, the suggestion of 1-5-10 soul acquisition (and then all remaining souls available at 15) is not particularly close to the old way.  Of course, I could be wrong, since nobody seems willing to actually detail how it used to work, instead preferring to just kind of refer to it as this demonic game system and hand wave at it whenever it is convenient to accuse someone of embracing it.
It is possible they tried several different methods.  It's also possible that it was in a portion of beta that is still covered by an NDA.  I am unwilling to elaborate myself for that reason.

While they could perhaps tweak it a little, the amount of confusion compared to the amount of fun is within a sweet spot, and at this point also risk upsetting existing players making alts in pursuit of new players.  This is a tough balancing act and one that has hurt other games to their detriment.  A better solution, at this point, would be to expand the help available regarding mixing souls and acquisition, and present it in an entertaining way.  Focus more on that in the tutorial while mixing in some more of the lore behind ascendancy.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #382 on: March 19, 2011, 10:19:41 AM

The issue I have with most of your argument is that you talk about the "new player" like he's never touched a computer before, but the reality is that you need the game to cater to the ex-WoW-player (or other MMO vet) because that's 99% of your population. Anyone who's played another MMO should have no problem wrapping their head around "I'm speccing for these abilities, so I should use them, while these other abilities are only situationally useful unless I spec for them."

You're making just as many assumptions about this 'new player' as I am, and imputing a lot of things to my 'new player' that just aren't necessary for them to have these problems. This whole idea that only some sort of completely ignorant or incompetent person could ever be affected by the current process is wrong -- this is not some kind of either/or proposition where either Clueless Guy Can't Handle It or Sophisticated Dude Loves it or some bullshit like that.

I haven't played WoW so I'm obviously missing some context there, but I have played a lot of MMOs and a lot of other RPGs with equally complicated mechanics -- and I've already described how I feel like my own experience was probably impacted by this, as have a few other people who also seem to have at least as much experience as your version of the 'new player.'
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 10:22:26 AM by Ice Cream Emperor »
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #383 on: March 19, 2011, 12:40:32 PM

 My wife played a hunter because on the class selection screen it said, "You should play a hunter if you like to solo with pets."  She read that, said out loud, "I like to solo with pets," and clicked the play button.  She specced beast mastery because she loved that goddamn cat, and would not be able to really tell you what exactly the talents did for her in any real detail.
That's pretty much my approach to gaming, even after playing computer games since 1975. I look at what I think would be the most fun, and if it doesn't work out I either try something else that looks fun and hope it's not nerfy (if I like the game itself) or just move on (if I don't).
Abelian75
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Posts: 678


Reply #384 on: March 19, 2011, 03:36:51 PM

It is possible they tried several different methods.  It's also possible that it was in a portion of beta that is still covered by an NDA.  I am unwilling to elaborate myself for that reason.

Ah, fair enough.  I had not considered that tbh. :)
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