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Author Topic: Gripes, complaints and irritations.  (Read 250699 times)
Draegan
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Reply #245 on: March 14, 2011, 07:29:18 AM

Rather, when I try to build Bards and Chloromancers I am struck by the lack of options to really excel at the runt-Role they've given us.  More of an opportunity missed than a positive failure.  Perhaps it will be remedied over time.

Chloromancers are not a runt role at all. They're awesome and much needed.

Bards are fantastic buffers and off healers.  Unfortunately they're so easy to play and don't really require a brain.  Very disappointed with them.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #246 on: March 14, 2011, 08:11:15 AM

I'm not saying trion ever lied but the whole soul system really gives this big illusion of variety when there isn't one. Really wish they had just allowed every role to do everything, with 8souls a piece there's really no reason not to have every class be able to tank/heal/dps as effectively as anyone else.  Again, doesn't make it a bad game, just wasted potential.

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March
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Reply #247 on: March 14, 2011, 08:28:17 AM

I'm not saying trion ever lied but the whole soul system really gives this big illusion of variety when there isn't one. Really wish they had just allowed every role to do everything, with 8souls a piece there's really no reason not to have every class be able to tank/heal/dps as effectively as anyone else.  Again, doesn't make it a bad game, just wasted potential.
I agree with you there.  That and if you want to add a 4th role called support... there should be a good idea of what support does and how/why you need it.  I'm not yet convinced that there *are* 4 roles yet... just Tank, Heal and DPS.  The game will be more interesting if they can flesh out the 4th role and, yes, round out the runt roles in each tree with better cross soul synergy.
Maledict
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Reply #248 on: March 14, 2011, 10:16:23 AM

The fourth role of support is very undefined, definitely agree there. Only bard and archons count as support apparently in the raid UI, and warriors don't appear to have a support class at all - instead they get 4 tanking souls, which seems overkill to me. And bards and archons both bring a lot of different stuff to a group.

In the long run I think we will see more spread, but for now challenging even the basic assumption that cleric = healer, warrior = tank, and rogue / mage = dps seems hard enough. I think asking folks to accept mages tanking might have been a step too far, but well have to see. I hope in the long run that's the plan with the souls.
Rendakor
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Reply #249 on: March 14, 2011, 11:04:20 AM

A mage tank could simply be a reliable tanking pet, that wouldn't be too hard to swallow. There have been a few times in WoW where Voidwalkers tanked raid bosses, even one (OS+3) where it was the ideal tanking strategy.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #250 on: March 14, 2011, 11:57:27 AM

As I said before void knight would make perfect sense as a mage soul for tanking. Give warriors a pure buff/heal class instead and things get a lot more balanced. I think a lot of the class stereotypes exist because people aren't sure who can be what still. They could have avoided this completely by letting everyone do everything and really...why not?  Again they are trying not to deviate too far from the cash cow that is wow and to me that really shows a lack of insight.

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Nonentity
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Reply #251 on: March 14, 2011, 12:36:44 PM

I find as I'm doing expert dungeons, that mystical fourth 'support dps' role is really useful, at least as a healer.

A chloromancer or bard that is providing passive AOE healing while DPSing gives me more time to focus on the tank (which can take ridiculous spike damage if they don't have enough toughness) with the healing.

Warriors desperately need a tree to fill that role, like the Warlord tree.

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Draegan
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Reply #252 on: March 14, 2011, 12:40:01 PM

If you want to do T2 experts, a Chloromancer or a 2nd cleric is a must.  Chloro is better because they're dps while healing very well is pretty good.
March
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Reply #253 on: March 14, 2011, 02:36:54 PM

If you want to do T2 experts, a Chloromancer or a 2nd cleric is a must.  Chloro is better because they're dps while healing very well is pretty good.
Not to pick nits, but you said Chloro was an awesome main healer.  I believe you.  That means you all are saying you need 2 main healers for T2 content.  That's not a call for support.

Edit: Pre-emptive retraction... that's not precisely what you said.  But then I go back to my original point that the runt roles are not sufficiently fleshed out as they should be.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 02:45:41 PM by March »
Maledict
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Reply #254 on: March 14, 2011, 04:52:52 PM

Chloro can be a main healer, or can be a great support healer in the same fashion as a bard by speccing differently. Clerics don't have the option of speccing into a massive, passive AoE healing spec like chloro's so they can't fill that role and so usually take up the main healer role.

The only issue with this is that a lot of people think this is the *only* role a chloro can fill. In the 40's people are asking for a cleric healer to join groups with a chloro off-spec healer, and they don't realise the chloro coul main heal just as well. Chloro's ability to off-heal, along with bards filling that role, has convinced many people that's *all* they can do.
trias_e
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Reply #255 on: March 14, 2011, 06:25:12 PM

This is a bit of theory craft on my part, but it seems like with just 13 points in chloro a mage could be a pretty beastly support healer.  Upgraded radiant spores is pretty rad.
ShenMolo
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Reply #256 on: March 15, 2011, 04:29:42 AM

Clerics don't have the option of speccing into a massive, passive AoE healing spec like chloro's so they can't fill that role and so usually take up the main healer role.

How about a Justicar tank being the passive AoE healer? In the lower dungeons while tanking as Justicar I noticed my passive AoE heals kept people topped up pretty well. Think it works in the late game?
Azuredream
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Reply #257 on: March 15, 2011, 07:35:15 AM

How about a Justicar tank being the passive AoE healer? In the lower dungeons while tanking as Justicar I noticed my passive AoE heals kept people topped up pretty well. Think it works in the late game?

When we first started doing experts our cleric was some kind of druid/justicar support healing role and it worked OK. He just switched to Inq later though. The T2s we've done I just solo heal stuff (I'm a chloro) and if we need to (for stuff like Scarn/Caelia/Calyx/Atrophinus in RD) our cleric swaps to his Warden spec. I haven't really found any situation where it would be healable with one healer and a support but not healable by one healer. If it's needed swap in a 2nd healer. If you're going to bring support the only soul that really pulls it off well is Bard, at least in my opinion.

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Sobelius
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Reply #258 on: March 15, 2011, 10:57:48 PM

This is a bit of theory craft on my part, but it seems like with just 13 points in chloro a mage could be a pretty beastly support healer.  Upgraded radiant spores is pretty rad.

Level 26 now. I've only got 8 points in chloro atm (rest is full necro). Radiant spores, withering vine and bloom from chloro, combined with life shift and blood binding from necro, you have a lot of emergency healing capability. And that's just for others. For yourself, the Soul Purge (channeled dps plus heal you and your pet) means the healer does not have to spend time worrying about healing the mage.

Another bonus: a lot of mobs run around with self buffs that give them 10% damage bump for a 10% health decrease. I knock off that buff with necro's greater consumption, which also regains a small chunk of mana, in the middle of a fight.

I have a full chloro spec in my other role, especially nice for rezzing or if group needs more/stronger healing than the necro/chloro build gives.

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Reply #259 on: March 16, 2011, 02:08:49 AM

Odd gripe, but the game sadly has little replay-ability. Outside a few twists to the same quests, its the exact same crawl through the exact same trails. Hence, if you want to reroll a rogue from your current warrior, you'll be in the same places with the same faces. Not long before the back of your mind is poking you telling you that you did this already. Guess this is an example of how multi-starting areas helps keeps the steam rolling out. There is just so much of Silverwood one can take..

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Draegan
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Reply #260 on: March 16, 2011, 06:14:46 AM

If you want to do T2 experts, a Chloromancer or a 2nd cleric is a must.  Chloro is better because they're dps while healing very well is pretty good.
Not to pick nits, but you said Chloro was an awesome main healer.  I believe you.  That means you all are saying you need 2 main healers for T2 content.  That's not a call for support.

Edit: Pre-emptive retraction... that's not precisely what you said.  But then I go back to my original point that the runt roles are not sufficiently fleshed out as they should be.

You can have a Chloro Main heal and have a Justicar off heal.  You can have a Cleric main heal and a non-full chloro off heal.  A non-full chloro is essentially a Mage with 20-30 points in Chloro and more points else where for damage.

You can get away with one healer on some boss fights in T2.  Some boss fights you need 2.  Depends on skill and gear.  There's a lot of movement and awareness involved in T2 fights.

edit:
Justicar tanks, properly geared, are sick group healers.  I saw one rip through eIT.  I should of rolled one.

Bards are pretty useless in group oriented PVE prior to raiding where you only need 1.  You're better off having that rogue go spec Ranger for dps and just cast Rain of Arrows on trash.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:18:20 AM by Draegan »
Threash
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Reply #261 on: March 16, 2011, 07:02:03 AM

Odd gripe, but the game sadly has little replay-ability. Outside a few twists to the same quests, its the exact same crawl through the exact same trails. Hence, if you want to reroll a rogue from your current warrior, you'll be in the same places with the same faces. Not long before the back of your mind is poking you telling you that you did this already. Guess this is an example of how multi-starting areas helps keeps the steam rolling out. There is just so much of Silverwood one can take..

I disagree.  I'm halfway through 48 and i have not touched Moonglade Highlands, Shimmersand OR Stillmoor.  That is plenty of content for me to explore my second time through, silverwood will definitely suck but i did that about 30 times during beta.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #262 on: March 16, 2011, 11:51:41 AM

Just to clarify one of the two souls that allow rogues to be anything but dps is useless except for in raids where only one is ever needed?

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Draegan
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Reply #263 on: March 16, 2011, 12:38:14 PM

Just to clarify one of the two souls that allow rogues to be anything but dps is useless except for in raids where only one is ever needed?

Depends what you mean by Bard.  If it's a 51 pt bard, then yeah, you only need one in raids.  In Experts, they can be used and work quite well, but if care about min/maxing everything, use a cleric/mage.

If you use a pseudo bard/dps build they can add a lot.

Bards or some combination of them are fantastic for leveling.

Some form of Bard is amazing for solo farming/playing at level 50.

I'm only discussing PVE.  Bards are pretty awesome in PVP.

So.... yeah if you want an optimal group setup in 20 man content, bring 1 Bard.  Were you expecting more?

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #264 on: March 16, 2011, 12:52:29 PM

People have a funny way of liking classes and not just classes but specs when they are different enough. Wow is still learning this lesson when it comes to moonkin/shadow priests and to a lesser extent things like beastmaster hunters.

A shadow priest or a bard do not identify with priest/rogue they identify with the spec and concept and what they want to play. As soon as you start saying things like "just respec ranger for most fghts" you are gonna turn a lot of people off, they don't want to play rangers, they want to be bards.

 Trion will need to recognize this soon and not just in the case of bards, they have made so many of their souls distinct, which is a good thing but it seems like they want you to always be switching depending on what situations call for and a lot of people just want to play X type of character and will get upset when that type is useless.

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Rendakor
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Reply #265 on: March 16, 2011, 02:18:11 PM

In a game that has 28 souls, needing only one of something for a 20m raid is not a balance problem.

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Koyasha
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Reply #266 on: March 16, 2011, 02:32:59 PM

Trion will need to recognize this soon and not just in the case of bards, they have made so many of their souls distinct, which is a good thing but it seems like they want you to always be switching depending on what situations call for and a lot of people just want to play X type of character and will get upset when that type is useless.
Well, as you note, it seems like part of the design of this game is for people to switch as appropriate to the situation.  We get 4 roles, 3 of which are unlockable with minimal to no financial hardship by level 30, the 4th will probably have no problems being unlocked by 50, and it's possible to swap active roles very smoothly as soon as you're not 'in combat'.  And you don't wind up with an empty mana bar either, so you can immediately be useful in your new role.  In pvp, role-swapping mid-combat is even quite possible, as long as you avoid getting hit long enough to be counted as out of combat.  This all says to me that the design is not intending for people to be 'a bard' or whatever, but that they are intended to be a rogue and switch as often as is useful. 

This is different from WoW's design where you were only allowed to switch specs recently, there's only 2 possible specs, the cast time for switching specs is way longer, and after the switch you're drained and need to drink to be prepared to act.  And before switching specs was allowed, you were essentially married to your spec - not to mention, the cost of tinkering and switching your points around was high, at least for the average player that was not making considerable amounts of money through their financial empire.  In WoW, you were clearly intended to be 'a shadow priest' and not just 'a priest'.

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Sobelius
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Reply #267 on: March 16, 2011, 02:40:47 PM

Trion will need to recognize this soon and not just in the case of bards, they have made so many of their souls distinct, which is a good thing but it seems like they want you to always be switching depending on what situations call for and a lot of people just want to play X type of character and will get upset when that type is useless.

I grok what you're saying but the only reason people get upset in the first place, IMHO, is not because of over-identification with a class but because once they made the class choice, they were pretty much locked into it and, therefore, if the class was underpowered/sucked/broken/etc they were literally stuck with it unless they wanted to reroll.

Here, they can keep elements of the class they like so much -- or even just a piece of it -- but they have so many options for ways to add to that main choice that it will be hard for them to feel stuck or useless.

e.g. Let's say I've got OCD when it comes to Rangers and I can't play the game without having a Ranger Soul. And let's say I want to get all the way as far as I can go in Ranger. You know the drill:  I drop 51 points in it. Now I have 15 points leftover for bringing in some spice from 2 other souls -- like 5 points in MM to increase the distance of my ranged attacks. And 10 points in Bard for the Cadence healing. Am I still "useless"? Am I still not enough of a Ranger? I think you'd have a hard time arguing that a 51 point build in any soul is useless.

You might argue that I would have to switch around a bit at various stages -- Hartsmann has said as much (see recent interview from Pax East on Zam) and admitted some souls will feel underpowered at some leveling stages but the goal is for all to be solid at end. This seems to be the reality of the game -- I can't say for sure since I haven't played any character to 50 yet, but it looks that way.

edit: and I forgot about Roles! So I keep my 51 point in Ranger across all 4 roles because I'm so OCD. I have 4 different ways to arrange the extra points/souls just as Koyasha says. I'd like to think that is another nail in the "useless" coffin.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 02:44:19 PM by Sobelius »

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Draegan
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Reply #268 on: March 16, 2011, 06:21:00 PM

People have a funny way of liking classes and not just classes but specs when they are different enough. Wow is still learning this lesson when it comes to moonkin/shadow priests and to a lesser extent things like beastmaster hunters.

A shadow priest or a bard do not identify with priest/rogue they identify with the spec and concept and what they want to play. As soon as you start saying things like "just respec ranger for most fghts" you are gonna turn a lot of people off, they don't want to play rangers, they want to be bards.

 Trion will need to recognize this soon and not just in the case of bards, they have made so many of their souls distinct, which is a good thing but it seems like they want you to always be switching depending on what situations call for and a lot of people just want to play X type of character and will get upset when that type is useless.

You do know this game is based off of soul builds right?  And you get four of them?  And there is a reason.  So you can use the best one for any given situation.  You are not a Bard, you are a Rogue.  You are not a tank, you are a Warrior.  Thats how the system works.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #269 on: March 16, 2011, 06:33:27 PM

In all fairness he's not saying anything about that being how the system work, but how most players work. They totally identify with one spec and if they think that spec sucks, they're not going to change it, but complain. That's what's so great about this system, having the ability to recognize a spec sucks and another one is just plain superior, makes us relative gods compared to those that pigeon hole themselves in.

I still see constant spams of LFM Tank, or Healer, and show up in the group finding that there's already a warrior in there, or a cleric, or a mage. People find something they like, and don't want to change, even as painlessly as this system makes it.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #270 on: March 16, 2011, 06:58:26 PM

What I'm saying is that even if some switching specs was instant...some people in wow still wouldnt want to switch their dps spec to be the healing bitch. Sometimes it's the other way around. People want to go into games with specific roles, giving them more or easier flexibility will not change the player in the least.

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Draegan
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Reply #271 on: March 16, 2011, 07:10:02 PM

You do know most people can play any spec and win for every single portion of this game except some of the more difficult raid encounters right?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #272 on: March 16, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Some people don't give a shit about numbers, they just want to play a certain class or style. What about that do you not get?


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Threash
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Reply #273 on: March 16, 2011, 07:13:23 PM

If they don't give a shit about numbers what is the problem? they can play whatever they want, just don't play with the people who do care about numbers.

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Draegan
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Reply #274 on: March 16, 2011, 07:16:08 PM

Some people don't give a shit about numbers, they just want to play a certain class or style. What about that do you not get?



Which is fine.  Because they can play that and complete every single piece of content in the game.  Except when group composition comes into play during some raid encounters and some T2 expert dungeons.

This is assuming people are playing this content at the assumed gear levels.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 07:20:29 PM by Draegan »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #275 on: March 16, 2011, 07:26:12 PM

Oh right, of course raiders won't be affected by this. Utter bullshit, when needed classes aren't favored by the general populace raiding guilds have trouble recruiting or forming raids.

"Hey bill, we're raiding king assface tonight, need you to switch to your healing spec"
"what the hell, i signed up to raid as dps"

People may be flexible now but the idea of re-speccing has been in wow since it started and people still hate doing it, even as easy as it is and yes this is at the raiding level too.

Also, let's not kid ourselves here, this game doesn't have four classes with 28 souls, it's got 28 classes. You don't say "im a warrior with points in riftblade/champion and beastmaster" you say "im a riftblade" 

So when people start identifying with certain playstyles they dont like having to switch cause "sorry dude, we already got one" I've raided for way too long to not see this happen. Some raiders are flexible but many aren't.

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Rendakor
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Reply #276 on: March 16, 2011, 07:29:39 PM

People shouldn't play with those with differing play styles, expectations, etc. If you're Johnny Casual who refuses to spec into a useful role for your guild/raid, don't expect to clear raiding content.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #277 on: March 16, 2011, 07:43:13 PM

Have you raided? Ever? I'm not talking about johnny casual. As I just said, when people sign up for raiding guild they sign up with a certain class/spec. Now of course guilds say they want you to be flexible but if someone's been X spec for months and you ask them to change cause we are short on healers? Good fucking luck. It's human nature, don't try to play it off like raiders are some magical species immune to the same foibles as mortal men.

YES, by and large more raiders are willing to be flexible but at best it's 50%  You try telling your main tank you need him to dps or heal from now on cause his chosen class just isnt good for this tier of raiding etc.

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Rendakor
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Reply #278 on: March 16, 2011, 07:47:11 PM

I run a raiding guild in WoW; never once have I made (or even asked) someone switch to a spec they don't want to play. Please continue to make stupid assumptions though.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #279 on: March 16, 2011, 07:48:13 PM

So if you never asked, how do you know they would?

I mean, you just proved my point if people in your raiding guild arent willing to play certain specs.

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