The latest in SOE's straw grasping

[shiznitz]

*** Grouping and the Con System ***

- Higher level group members will no longer take a disproportionately large share of group experience splits. Previously, when one or two group members were higher level than the group's average, they gained a much larger share of the XP than they were supposed to.
- The blue/green range has been expanded for groups whose members are not all the same level. Depending on your group's level range, even in groups as small as two, you now have more targets to choose from. Some encounters that were grey will now be green or even blue.
- Since encounter con is based on the group's level, it is conceivable that an encounter may be grey to a player while solo, but turn green when they join a group with an average level that is lower than their own.
- The blue/green range for players in their low 20s is now significantly larger, allowing them to hunt in some of their favorite spots for longer.

This was a "hotfix" today. Previously, if a mob was grey to anyone in the group, it was grey to the whole group. So a group of 5 level 23s and one 26 would see level 23 mobs (even 23^^) as grey. This seriously sucked since grey mobs will never drop their special loot, thereby requiring very narrow groups levels for hunting. Clearly, SOE is trying to make the game more playbale for everyone with the solo exp boost and now this.

Good for those of us still trying to enjoy EQ2.

[jpark]

Yes I never understood this.  Correct me if I am wrong (former 27 Templar) but grouping ranges are / were actually tighter in EQ2 than EQ1.

Easy to correct and long over due.

[Mesozoic]

I can appreciate that with EQ1, Sony was basically able to go with the "fuck you" design philosophy until other MMOGs challenged them, forcing them to relent.  That makes some sense.

But why, with the second installment, did they have to learn the same lesson, and respond with the same about-face?

[shiznitz]

It is clear that the SOE team that developed EQ2 was driven by business people, not creative types. For all of EQ1's flaws, Brad & Co created an incredible world and story from scratch and implemented something competely unique at the time. EQ2 was clearly designed to "fix" things in EQ1 - things that either the players or the devs saw as broken. Fun was probably not actually on any list of goals for EQ2.

I find it somewhat appalling how much "content" in EQ2 is ripped off from EQ1. All the Heritage quests result in items from EQ1. Is it really that hard to come up with new ones? Why is Nagafen the end game dragon yet again? The answer is that is was easier and then was probably rationalized as nostalgic flavor.

It is a testament to the success of EQ1 and the world of Norrath that EQ2 has even 100,000 subscribers. I play the game because lots of people I know play and EQ1 was a big part of our lives for 3-5 years. If they all moved back to CoH, I would go with them in a heartbeat, however.

[Miasma]

I find it somewhat appalling how much "content" in EQ2 is ripped off from EQ1. All the Heritage quests result in items from EQ1. Is it really that hard to come up with new ones?

I think heritage quests refer to your EQ1 heritage.  Their only purpose is to get an item from EQ1 as a fun piece of memorabilia, so they can't make new ones.  It would be like trying to make a brand new antique.

[shiznitz]

Except the Heritage items are good (not uber) loot for the level at which one can obtain them.  No one I have ever chatted with about them cared about or mentioned the EQ1 reference.

[Toast]

The nostalgia of the heritage items was actually a big reason for me buying and trying Everquest 2.

I was also drawn by the familiarity of the lore and the desire to see where the storyline ended up.

I lost interest in the game almost immediately as the collective weight of poor design decision stacked on poor decision crushed teh fun to death.

Revamps and retunes this early in the game are a shame. They might fix the problem going forward, but they won't win back hundreds of thousands of cancelled subs.

Good luck to those still playing. As evidenced by SWG, SOE will at least make bona fide attempts to fix their game long into the future.

[Trippy]

*** Grouping and the Con System ***
- The blue/green range has been expanded for groups whose members are not all the same level. Depending on your group's level range, even in groups as small as two, you now have more targets to choose from. Some encounters that were grey will now be green or even blue.
- Since encounter con is based on the group's level, it is conceivable that an encounter may be grey to a player while solo, but turn green when they join a group with an average level that is lower than their own.

This is so amusing. In beta, the whole "mobs become grey when you are in a group" mechanic made absolutely no sense to me. You could be all the way on the other side of the zone from the rest of the group and mobs that would normally kill you in a few whacks would be blissfully unaware of your presence. You could also use this mechanic to skip dungeon content by temporarily grouping with higher level people in a dungeon zone and then running through sections that normally you would have to take time to clear. It also had the unfortunate side effect that if somebody important got disconnected you could suddenly find yourself being attacked by large trains where just a second before you were perfectly safe.

Now that they've changed this, you have the reverse situation, with higher level people not wanting to be invited into groups until they are actually next to everybody else, otherwise content that would normally be grey to them solo will suddenly turn aggro on them. Not being able to skip content as easily is probably going to piss off a lot of people as well.

[shiznitz]

Well this change doesn't necessarily remove the ability to skip content with a high level - a HUGE flaw, but often a convenient one - but it makes it a bit harder.

[Glazius]

Now that they've changed this, you have the reverse situation, with higher level people not wanting to be invited into groups until they are actually next to everybody else, otherwise content that would normally be grey to them solo will suddenly turn aggro on them. Not being able to skip content as easily is probably going to piss off a lot of people as well.

...wait. In EQ2, stuff that's too easy for you to gain experience from can still kill you?

--GF

[Alkiera]

...wait. In EQ2, stuff that's too easy for you to gain experience from can still kill you?

If you're a mage, prolly.  Not sure on priests and scouts.  As a fighter, your AC is typically too high for them to really hit you.

The biggest problem with mages is that doing enough damage to grey group mobs before you run out of power/mana can sometimes be a problem... one melee's don't have, their source of damage being infinite.

Alkiera

[Miasma]

I'd call this pandering more than grasping but the official boards actually have a "Which is the sexiest race in EverQuest II?" poll going on.

Maybe a moderator went nuts or developed a sense of humor.

By the way, top 4 results are elves...

[Toast]

I hope the poll has this choice:

"None of the above:  This is a mangina, so do not view it sexually"

[Miasma]

Heh, no but do they have 'witty' comments, the dark elf one even has some dewd speak.

Wood elves, because they're frisky in the outdoors (25%) 
Dark elves, because evil = seksay (24%) 
Half elves, because they're the best of both worlds (21%) 
High elves, because class = sex appeal (11%) 
Kerra, because fur makes me purr (6%) 
Humans, because I'm human! Duh! (4%) 
Halflings, because I'm weird (3%) 
Gnomes, because I like short and balding (3%) 
Ogres, because I like 'em big (2%)
Iksar, because scales can't hide the passion in their hearts (2%)

Total Votes: 1072

That's a direct copy and paste, I'm not making it up.

[SirBruce]

Damn, there are SO MANY COMMENTS I COULD MAKE ON THAT LIST, but schild would hurt me for each and every one.

Bruce

[kaid]

Frankly at least eq2 has proven that they can put patchs out. Wow has delayed for the third week in a row a pretty meager bug fix only patch. This won't stop them for having the servers down for 6 hours anyway however.

kaid

[Gimmick Acct Sky]

...wait. In EQ2, stuff that's too easy for you to gain experience from can still kill you?

One of the final straws was trying to work into Wailing Cave (cavern, whatever the eq2 version is called) to where I could actually find some exp-giving mobs...and barely being able to solo the greys. Eventually died about 6 fights in, never once seeing a mob that would give out experience.

Screw EQ2 imo.

[Alkiera]

...wait. In EQ2, stuff that's too easy for you to gain experience from can still kill you?

One of the final straws was trying to work into Wailing Cave (cavern, whatever the eq2 version is called) to where I could actually find some exp-giving mobs...and barely being able to solo the greys. Eventually died about 6 fights in, never once seeing a mob that would give out experience.

Nevermind that everything in the Wailing Caves is either a group of several mobs, a pair of mobs with '^', or a single '^^' mob.  All of them clearly labeled 'Group' in the targeting window.

If you wanted to just hunt for exp solo, Commonlands is a far superior choice of area.

Also, what class are/were you?  The only class I've played that had trouble soloing was an enchanter, becuase i'd run out of power well before mobs ran out of hp, being the lowest-damage of the mage classes.

Alkiera

[El Gallo]

It is clear that the SOE team that developed EQ2 was driven by business people, not creative types. For all of EQ1's flaws, Brad & Co created an incredible world and story from scratch and implemented something competely unique at the time. EQ2 was clearly designed to "fix" things in EQ1 - things that either the players or the devs saw as broken. Fun was probably not actually on any list of goals for EQ2.

Well said.  EQ2 was designed to "fix" all the imagined problems that board warriors whined about, with no overarching vision at all.  You end up with a game with no powerlevelling, no twinking, no kiting, no pulling, and no soul.

[jpark]

Well said.  EQ2 was designed to "fix" all the imagined problems that board warriors whined about, with no overarching vision at all.  You end up with a game with no powerlevelling, no twinking, no kiting, no pulling, and no soul.

Exactly.

[Sky]

If you wanted to just hunt for exp solo, Commonlands is a far superior choice of area

Oh, I know. I was just trying to see something more interesting than an_orc and dodging between 'can't touch these' mobs.

I thought maybe by the time the front of a dungeon was grey I might be able to take a look at something cool, but I was quickly bitchslapped back into the solo ghetto.

Sorry for posting in the EQ2 forum, I shouldn't. I try to understand how anyone could enjoy the game. Seemed to be a pretty good game totally ruined by design decisions. I was a level 17 dark elf summoner when I quit, didn't even get to play a necro for a second.

[WindupAtheist]

Well said.  EQ2 was designed to "fix" all the imagined problems that board warriors whined about, with no overarching vision at all.  You end up with a game with no powerlevelling, no twinking, no kiting, no pulling, and no soul.

What happened to the days when it was Verant's goal to make everyone bow before The Vision(tm)?   :-D

[jpark]

What happened to the days when it was Verant's goal to make everyone bow before The Vision(tm)?   :-D

The people that had the vision associated with EQ left? ;)

[Alkiera]

What happened to the days when it was Verant's goal to make everyone bow before The Vision(tm)?   :-D

The people that had the vision associated with EQ left? ;)

Aye, most of the Vision(tm) crowd left... they've gotten together again to form Sigil Games... Where they're making another MMOG, published by Microsoft, iirc.  It sounds alot like EQ, only with more ephasis on all the parts of EQ that we hated.

Alkiera

[schild]

Yes, Vanguard isn't exactly shaping up to be robot jesus. I still think Microsoft should have stuck with True Fantasy online.

[AlteredOne]

Yes, Vanguard isn't exactly shaping up to be robot jesus. I still think Microsoft should have stuck with True Fantasy online.

Vanguard has gotten remarkably tiny exposure thus far.  What few mentions I have seen, have tended toward glorification of the Brad McQuaid cult of genius, yet I have failed to see the appeal of this particular cult.  Let's see, this is the guy who brought us corpse runs, entire levels lost to death, excessive forced dependence on other classes for basic needs such as travel, and an entirely raid-focused "endgame."  These are precisely the types of things that nearly every successful MMO has aimed to avoid since then, and even EQLive has moved away from.  When you get down to it, McQuaid and the "Vision" crowd brought us a glorified 3D Mud with excessive penalties, ensuring that their game would never reach far beyond the uber catass audience.

Anyway, where does Vanguard stand, and is there supposed to be anything special about it?  I recall something about a dynamic world and nice graphics, but hey Ryzom made those claims and I don't see them making a killing.  Does Vanguard even have a chance of being released this year?

[HaemishM]

I think Vanguard may be in alpha, but they are not really talking much about it at all.

[El Gallo]

According to the Vanguard FAQ, they are still just in the internal alpha, and have no projected dates for beta or release.  I'd say the chance of the game being released this year is vanashingly small.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/faq.php?eid=2&faqid=2&ptext=Beta+%26+Release

What few mentions I have seen, have tended toward glorification of the Brad McQuaid cult of genius, yet I have failed to see the appeal of this particular cult.  Let's see, this is the guy who brought us corpse runs, entire levels lost to death, excessive forced dependence on other classes for basic needs such as travel, and an entirely raid-focused "endgame."  These are precisely the types of things that nearly every successful MMO has aimed to avoid since then, and even EQLive has moved away from.

Hello, my name is El Gallo and I am a Brad McQuaid fanboy.

Well, he did make a game that dominated the Western MMOG industry for quite some time.
He also brought us the best handcrafted MMOG world we've ever seen, by far.  A refreshing change in a sea of bland, randomly generated soulless shit.  There are people who enjoy a lovingly handcrafted world.  Compare even an average original EQ-Kunark-Velious zone to an Anarchy Online instance, and stretch of randomly thrown together SWG or AC real estate, or a LDoN adventure zone.  WoW is the only one that comes remotely close.

There are also people who actually like to play with other people, and whose idea of the perfect MMOG is something other than "lots of people soloing next to one another, oh, wait, even better lets have each person solo in their own instance just like Diablo."

Personally, I like the concepts.  Like most things, it all comes down to execution.  He claims to aim for less tedium than EQ while retaining EQ's community-building power.  We'll see.

Now, there's no way that it will get WoW like subscription numbers even if it is executed well, because it won't be a game that 13-year-old ADD fuckheads enjoy, or even capable of, playing. 

Edit for some more fanboiism: it is also somewhat unfair to blame the shitty nature of EQ's raid endgame on McQuaid, since the McQuaid-designed Original-Kunark-Velious endgames were orders of magnitude better done and less tedious than the post-McQuaid Luclin-PoP-GoD endgames were.

[jpark]

Hello, my name is El Gallo and I am a Brad McQuaid fanboy.

Well, he did make a game that dominated the Western MMOG industry for quite some time.
He also brought us the best handcrafted MMOG world we've ever seen, by far.  A refreshing change in a sea of bland, randomly generated soulless shit.  There are people who enjoy a lovingly handcrafted world.  Compare even an average original EQ-Kunark-Velious zone to an Anarchy Online instance, and stretch of randomly thrown together SWG or AC real estate, or a LDoN adventure zone.  WoW is the only one that comes remotely close.

In the Smedly thread on the EQ forums, to reinforce your point, some posters suggested having EQ servers that did not have the expansions beyond Velious / Kunark.  Many share this view - and I think I am one of them.  I guess that makes me a McQuaid fanboi as well (knowing your diagnosis is the start of recovery).

I cannot think of one memorable zone in EQ2 - outside Black Burrow which was not bad (but copy from EQ).

[AlteredOne]

Yes, you are correct that EQ had some very nice hand-crafted zones, up through Velious.  I burned out during the Velious period, so I'll take your word on the later expansions.  And when I say I burned out, it was largely due to the McQuaid design philosophy of punitive gaming.  Some people love pulling all-nighters when a major guild raid goes bad.  I don't.  And the zones get a lot less interesting, when you sit in them for 12 hours straight on some raid or other.

I'm quite amazed to see the Vanguard FAQ list this juicy quote on the death penalty:
"Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes will employ a variation on the traditional corpse retrieval death penalty – you die, you return to your bind point but leave a corpse behind and that corpse contains the items and coin you had in your possession. You will generally need to return to that corpse and loot it to regain the items and coin."

EQ1, all over again!  Wheeeeeeeeeee.

[jpark]

I'm quite amazed to see the Vanguard FAQ list this juicy quote on the death penalty:
"Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes will employ a variation on the traditional corpse retrieval death penalty – you die, you return to your bind point but leave a corpse behind and that corpse contains the items and coin you had in your possession. You will generally need to return to that corpse and loot it to regain the items and coin."

EQ1, all over again!  Wheeeeeeeeeee.

heh.  I used to have 2 sets of gear:  one I wore and the second in my bank for corpse runs :)  Having Jboots in the bank was quite necessary.  You know - I liked it.

/duck

[Strazos]

Actually, I had tons of fun with CR...they were some of my most memorable and enjoyable moments from EQ....That, and earning my self-appointed title of "Master Train Conductor."

But I was a rogue, so that may be why. I use to get raid invites Purely for my CR skill...I guess lesser rogues didn't understand the nuances of sneak and LoS and such.

The more dangerous the CR, the more fun for me it was to drag everyone out.

[jpark]

Actually, I had tons of fun with CR...they were some of my most memorable and enjoyable moments from EQ....That, and earning my self-appointed title of "Master Train Conductor."

But I was a rogue, so that may be why. I use to get raid invites Purely for my CR skill...I guess lesser rogues didn't understand the nuances of sneak and LoS and such.

The more dangerous the CR, the more fun for me it was to drag everyone out.

I've heard it said that with the latest expansion in EQ all classes can summon corpses now?  Seems SOE is determined to send EQ2 and EQ down the same toilet.

[shiznitz]

The latest expansion lets anyone with the expansion summon their corpse to a zone off PoK. Not quite the same as summoning to the front of the zone, but it works in a pinch.

[HaemishM]

Actually, I had tons of fun with CR...they were some of my most memorable and enjoyable moments from EQ....That, and earning my self-appointed title of "Master Train Conductor."

But I was a rogue, so that may be why. I use to get raid invites Purely for my CR skill...I guess lesser rogues didn't understand the nuances of sneak and LoS and such.

The more dangerous the CR, the more fun for me it was to drag everyone out.

CR's were only fun for rogues or classes with invisibility. My wife, even though she played a druid, was a master corpse getter.

However, for the rest of us, CR's were a goddamn pain in the ass nightmare, especially the ones at 2 AM on a weeknight during a fucking dragon raid, especially a successful one.