Treyarch to gamers: STFU u h8ers

[Mrbloodworth]

Wow, some of you did not read the full original article did you?

The euro gamer article has been presented as if this was the response to the issues you cite. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

Eurogamer title: "Treyarch: angry gamers stifle creativity" And it only contains that quite to the last question posed to a CM about HIS FIELD IN DEVELOPMENT that he would change.

Not only is the title false, hes not speaking for an entire company, he speaking from his position and his opinion, within his field. But that does not make a good story.


Do you see how Eurogamer is part of the problem he was speaking about? Look at the response it garnered:

That's a load of fucking shit. Most people are having a go because the game was the buggiest title they've ever experienced. A black ops hard reset was what killed my ps3. So stop whinging about people giving you a hard time, and release a fucking finished game in the future.

Nothing in that quote was about those issues, not one, those issues he addressed earlier in the interview directly. Sure, its PR speak, but it was addressed and did not have anything to do with the issue we are currently debating. It certainly did not "Blame the customers".

[Engels]

BW, we go through this with every title out there you champion for a cause. As a general attitude, I applaud you for your resilient optimism and desire to keep things reasonable.

But again, the very passage you quote has a community manager for a AAA title complaining about 'negative social media' about a game that was not adequately tested.

I'm sorry for him, as I am for any gaming community manager, since he has to face the wrath of customers purchasing a $60.00 game that works like complete ass out of the box, but he, as a representative of the company that just put out a best selling turd of a title, doesn't get to suffer the ennui of being misunderstood by the horde of unwashed raging gamers.

I can guarantee you that the community manager of a game that works would not be talking about his creativity being stifled by 'negative fans'. The positive feedback would be apparent, and the negative nancies would be seen as either trolls or just malcontents and, far more importantly, wouldn't be accused of being 'the biggest problem facing the games industry today'.

It smacks immensely of blaming the victim, rather than the real hurdles to gaming creativity, namely budgetary constraints, unreasonable launch dates set by marketing folks, heavy handed publishers, etc.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't even own this game. You did not read the article, or the context the quote came from you have knee jerk reacted. Eurogamer has done you a disservice.

Irony is deep.

[Paelos]

Bloodworth, I think you're looking at this article for some meaningful commentary when the entire thing should just be dismissed as ridiculous.

Here's an anology. Don't tell people the biggest problem in marriage today is unrealistic expectations and negativity when you got caught fucking your secretary.

[tgr]

Counterpoint: what has AAA games really brought to the table the past 5 years that have been truly innovative?

Beyond DRM and a slight tweak of graphics, of course.

[SnakeCharmer]

Here's an anology. Don't tell people the biggest problem in marriage today is unrealistic expectations and negativity when you got caught fucking your secretary.

Bloody fucking brililiant.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bloodworth, I think you're looking at this article for some meaningful commentary when the entire thing should just be dismissed as ridiculous.

No, I just don't really see the comment about stifling creativity as a response to "your game is buggy". There is not logical connection. Top it all off with a helping of euro-gamer presenting it as one, and someone once again saying im just a fanboi when I support the comment, as its something I also agree with and have for a long time, and dont even own the title.

I do. Anything positive is automatically labeled fanboi-ism and immediately discarded.  Cynical, jaded and possibly hateful tones give you 'cred' and are held up as being the zenith of objective discourse.

Even this forum falls into it on a routine basis.

[IainC]

Even taking away the context of BlackOps and pretending for a moment that he's a CM for a random studio that hasn't just released a shitty game that got panned by the paying public, he's still dead wrong. People saying bad things about your product on message-boards have zero impact on the game while it is in any kind of development state. It might potentially impact sales after release but by that point practically all of the 'innovation and creativity' has happened already.

He's talking up the influence of community because that's his field and he hasn't yet learnt any perspective. Senior producers give no fucks when you cut and paste a screed from xXxS8NxXx about how your game totally sucks and they'll torrent it instead of buying it into a feedback email.

[AutomaticZen]

What, in your mind, is the biggest problem facing the games industry today, and if you had the power, how would you fix it?

Personally, as a community manager who lives in the media or social media world every day, I think the social culture of video games is moving in a more negative direction as technology and social media continues to grow. Rather than growing with it, the trend seems to be devolving. More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about.

It’s a creative industry – the most creative form of entertainment in existence. Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.

We know the question had nothing to with the game.  We're saying its nowhere near the biggest problem facing the gaming industry today, and the only reason he's probably even saying that is because his studio is currently under fire for a situation related to a title they just released.  We're saying that damned creative titles get made all the time in this culture he feels is worse.

Gamers reward creativity implemented well.  They mercilessly crush that which is implemented poorly.

People saying bad things about your product on message-boards have zero impact on the game while it is in any kind of development state. It might potentially impact sales after release but by that point practically all of the 'innovation and creativity' has happened already.

Senior producers give no fucks when you cut and paste a screed from xXxS8NxXx about how your game totally sucks and they'll torrent it instead of buying it into a feedback email.

Thank you.

[Paelos]

someone once again saying im just a fanboi when I support the comment, as its something I also agree with and have for a long time, and dont even own the title.

1 - He's a terrible mouthpiece to make that point.
2 - I don't agree with your view on the point even if he wasn't a terrible mouthpiece to support it.
3 - Haters gonna hate, bro.

[Mrbloodworth]

I would not have made the claim its the biggest issue ether. But I do agree its an issue.

Look how it was twisted already, how long did it take to be turned the title of this thread, how many times over has that happened with just this one quote?

[Sky]

Top Sellers that were creative:
The Sims
Guild Wars
Myst
Populous
Anno
Baldur's Gate
7th Guest
Tropico
SimCity
Civilization

...that came out in the previous decade? And even those (besides GW, I guess) were real early in the aughts. And BG has been hammered into a somewhat lukewarm DA series; Civ V has all but ended the franchise.

I don't think you can point at one thing, the cause and effect is far too complex. As I just read in Reaper's Gale: a cliff breaks free and kills a village. However, the cliff was made unstable by the villagers themselves when they over-forested the upper part. Are gamers to blame for getting what they ask for? The villagers over-forested due to demand for lumber in a distant port city, is the port city to blame? Are developers trying to appeal to a perceived audience? The port city needed the lumber to build the fleet that fills the demand of the local ruler, is the ruler to blame? Do you blame publisher pressure? The ruler is merely reacting to tensions created by overpopulation, like the town under the cliff. Is the market shooting too high, the double-edged sword of either putting too large a budget on a niche title or watering down a niche to try and appeal to some nebulous mainstream audience?

It's funny how some of the best games ever made were made before official forums existed. And to see what utter cesspools official forums are. One look at the Rift forum, even the beta forum, and one has to consider why one would even consider playing a multiplayer game with these utter degenerates. I'd even advance it a bit further to include the rabid inclusion of multiplayer just to tick a feature list point; or the vapid media that tsks any time a game is released without multiplayer, as if that's somehow a bad thing.

Also, look at the SWTOR thread 

[Riggswolfe]

I wouldn't say this is the biggest issue that affects game development but I think it is highly realistic to say that it stifles creativity. I can just imagine the following conversation:

Dev: We want to do an MMO that is skill based. As you use your skills they increase and...
Suit: Yes, but games that aren't like WOW get trashed on the internet. *holds up a pile of papers with "market analysis" on them*
Dev: Uhhh...those are just internet people whining....loud minority and...
Suit: Make it like WOW.
Dev: *sighs*

While this example is extremely simplified I think something like it probably happens alot.

[Mrbloodworth]

I wouldn't say this is the biggest issue that affects game development but I think it is highly realistic to say that it stifles creativity. I can just imagine the following conversation:

Dev: We want to do an MMO that is skill based. As you use your skills they increase and...
Suit: Yes, but games that aren't like WOW get trashed on the internet. *holds up a pile of papers with "market analysis" on them*
Dev: Uhhh...those are just internet people whining....loud minority and...
Suit: Make it like WOW.
Dev: *sighs*

While this example is extremely simplified I think something like it probably happens alot.

It happens between developers too. Main thing I keep going back to in my head is F2P implementations as a modern example. Most player concerns are completely irrational, but you can not ignore them.  Just a wiff of XXXX concern being used will instantly cause a whiplash through the net about your title (That is, if any one gave a frack in the first place).

[NiX]

Gamers reward creativity implemented well.  They mercilessly crush that which is implemented poorly.

Go grab the best selling games from the past 3 years.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah I'm sure that The black-ops guys are hurting over this merciless cursing they are receiving.

[AutomaticZen]

Yeah I'm sure that The black-ops guys are hurting over this merciless cursing they are receiving.

So why make the point at all?  If they don't care, then they'll do what they want regardless.  If they do care, then this is a worthless statement.

Go grab the best selling games from the past 3 years.

That's like saying any MMO that doesn't sell WoW numbers is a failure.  Come on now.  

Scribblenauts, Love, Minecraft, Recettear, Assassin's Creed, LKimbo, Castlevania Harmony of Despair, Cave Story, Scott Pilgrim, Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light, Amnesia, etc.  These developers were rewarded for giving gamers something even slightly different.

It's how you end up with shit like this:

http://www.carpefulgur.com/

Today we have another annoucement to make.

Recettear: An Item's Shop's Tale has continued to sell since our previous announcement. At this point, we can therefore announce...

That Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale has sold over one hundred thousand copies as of this date.

This means... well, it means a whole lot of things, really. Andrew Dice's blog post about this event covers most of the more pertinent points.

We at Carpe Fulgur would still like to thank everyone who made this possible - the distributors who supported us ceaselessly, the news outlets who continued to give us attention, and most of all, the fans who continued to buy our product (we know a fair number of you gifted the game around whatnot) and spread the word about this humble little shop simulator we localized. Without you, we wouldn't be here today, and we wouldn't be in a position to bring you more great titles in 2011.

Happy New Year, everyone. The coming year looks bright, and it's all thanks to you. 

[Paelos]

Go grab the best selling games from the past 3 years.

It's a parade of sequel crap to be sure. However, there are spots of innovation even in the Darkness.

Wii Fit, Spore, Sins of a Solar Empire, Crysis, and Left 4 Dead.

[Mrbloodworth]

So why make the point at all?  If they don't care, then they'll do what they want regardless.  If they do care, then this is a worthless statement.

TBH I tapped out this conversation about two posts ago.

[AutomaticZen]

So why make the point at all?  If they don't care, then they'll do what they want regardless.  If they do care, then this is a worthless statement.

TBH I tapped out this conversation about two posts ago.

Fair enough, good sir.

[Megrim]

Counterpoint: what has AAA games really brought to the table the past 5 years that have been truly innovative?

Beyond DRM and a slight tweak of graphics, of course.

This is what I asked him at the very first instance, only to be met with a link to a forum and two pages of "you don't understand what it's like!!11!".

[Mrbloodworth]

Counterpoint: what has AAA games really brought to the table the past 5 years that have been truly innovative?

Beyond DRM and a slight tweak of graphics, of course.

This is what I asked him at the very first instance, only to be met with a link to a forum and two pages of "you don't understand what it's like!!11!".

Not what happened.

[Ingmar]

While we're complaining about gamers' opinions I'd like to register one about using 'sequel' as a pejorative. My 5 favorite games released in 2010 were all sequels. Sequels don't have to mean EA Sports yearly shovelware type stuff. They're not inherently bad or good.

[Sky]

Many times the second perfects the series the way the devs wish they could've made it with more funding. Then the third craps it up with fan feedback and money grabbery 

[tgr]

I'm serious, btw. Most AAA games these days are 3-5 years in the making, with 150+ people working on it, and a budget of $100m+ (ok, I might be overexaggerating the numbers a bit). How many of those games are even remotely close to being innovative in any way, shape or form? Most of what I see seems to be short SP with a bland MP and (in the case of funny games such as Black Ops) a $60 pricetag with maybe 1 or 2 new features or .

Games that actually seem to be innovative (or at the very least provide solid releases with good content) seem to either be from small groups (1-10 guys), rockstar or valve (who probably aren't getting their main revenue from making games anymore, so they can actually afford to play around).

Bitching seems to me to be the least of their problems, budget bloat to the point where they have to sell 1m units or more to even break even strikes me as much more of a problem.

[Ingmar]

Innovation isn't the only thing that determines a game's quality. It isn't even necessarily important at all.

[AutomaticZen]

Many times the second perfects the series the way the devs wish they could've made it with more funding. Then the third craps it up with fan feedback and money grabbery  

See: Assassin's Creed 2

On sequels in general, sometimes I do want more of the same with slight improvement, thank you very much.

You're a game developer man.  You're supposed to show me the future.  I'm supposed to reward you when you succeed.  A publisher shuts you down when you fail, sadly.

[K9]

Innovation isn't the only thing that determines a game's quality. It isn't even necessarily important at all.

I agree with this.

Does Portal count as a AAA title?

[AutomaticZen]

Innovation isn't the only thing that determines a game's quality. It isn't even necessarily important at all.

I agree with this.

Does Portal count as a AAA title?

Portal 2?  Yes.  The original?  Valve just sort of threw it out there, not expecting it to blow up like it did.

[Paelos]

The biggest innovation we've seen recently is Minecraft. I fully expect that to be ripped off by a AAA studio within 3 years.

[Sjofn]

On sequels in general, sometimes I do want more of the same with slight improvement, thank you very much.

Phew, so it's not just me!

I'm pleased Recettear has done so well. I really like that game.  It could use an expansion or something though, I desire MORE objects to charge way too much for!

[Engels]

Mass Effect 2
Rome: Total War, Medieval: Total War
C&C Red Alert
Age of Empires II
Dark Forces II
GTA (insert number here)
Final Fantasy (insert number here)
Fallout 2 & 3

Ya, them sequels just suck.

[Paelos]

Hell Warcraft II.

[Rasix]

Disgaea 2
Shadow Hearts: Covenant
MGS IV
Team Fortress 2
Saints Row 2
Just Cause 2
Baldur's Gate 2
System Shock 2
Dead Rising 2
Persona 3/4

Etc etc etc.  Point's been made, I suppose.   

Nothing wrong with incremental game play advancements.  Sometimes I takes something that was flawed by fun and removes a lot of the "flawed" or applies the same formula to a greater understanding of the craft.  Rockstar's been living off that for over 10 years now.   

[UnSub]

If you want to read the full interview, it's mostly a fluff piece.

Does gamer culture have some toxic elements? Absolutely. But that isn't all it is. Devs seem quite happy to ignore players most of the time (and rightly for the most part) so I find it funny to think our usefully cynical take on MMOs has somehow reduced the scope of the industry according to Olin.

My chief bit of amusement was seeing a community manager blame the players, which is pretty much the end of the line for a community manager. That he blamed them in an interview where he talked about releasing DLC for a franchise FPS that sold well despite not bringing much new to the table was the icing on the cake.