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Author Topic: The case against Lance Armstrong  (Read 87893 times)
schild
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Reply #245 on: October 10, 2012, 02:48:52 PM

I was joking about the bikes. I just wanted to point out that any case against Lance Armstrong should be founded on the back of him deserving nothing good in life due to him being a total asshole.
ghost
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Reply #246 on: October 10, 2012, 03:02:13 PM

I had already written most of that before you even posted about the bikes.  I know you're joking, but it's been a consideration.  Biking is so dirty that people will do anything to win.

As far as Armstrong being an assbag, sure, it's now common knowledge.  But it wasn't 7 years ago when Armstrong was racing.  Everyone thought he was the golden boy.  The beginning of his downfall (public eye downfall, mind you) was his dumbass divorce from his wife.  But now we get to enjoy the dumpster fire that his life is going to become.  It's going to be more enjoyable than watching Warhammer Online crash and burn.
ghost
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Reply #247 on: October 10, 2012, 03:07:51 PM

Here is the full USADA decision and evidence, if anyone wants to read through it.  It looks to be interesting stuff.
sickrubik
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Reply #248 on: October 10, 2012, 03:14:24 PM

As far as Armstrong being an assbag, sure, it's now common knowledge.  But it wasn't 7 years ago when Armstrong was racing.  Everyone thought he was the golden boy.

Not true. Most people I know (working in the industry) thought of him as an asshole. They may not have thought or believed that he was doping, but they all thought he was a dickhead. He certainly came across that way the one time I met him. But that was one time.

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #249 on: October 10, 2012, 03:42:50 PM

You're talking about insiders and a person that has personally met Lance, i.e. you.  That is not the general public.  When Lance was at his peak of racing performance (in and around his divorce from Kristen) he was the golden boy as far as public perception is concerned.  Your point is irrelevant. 
sickrubik
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Reply #250 on: October 10, 2012, 03:52:22 PM

Eh, perhaps I'm colored a bit from being in the industry, but I'm not talking about "insiders". I'm speaking from the perspective of casual riders and pros alike. I just don't know anyone that ever had a particularly high opinion other than "damn, boy is fast", and now the opinion is pretty much, "man the guy is a huge dick AND a huge cheater." More or less how most seemed to feel about Landis.

Plus, you said everyone, so I working off of that. Public perception may have been much more open to him, but I don't think it was as a racer really. I think it was mostly because he was dating Sheryl Crow and "beat" cancer. Plus, yellow bracelets. I'm not sure racing really entered the public perception of him much at all.

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #251 on: October 10, 2012, 03:54:43 PM

That's why I said the divorce was the beginning of his public undoing.  When he was dating Cheryl Crow it had already begun to unravel for him. 
Soln
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Reply #252 on: October 10, 2012, 03:56:34 PM

I think it was mostly because he was dating Sheryl Crow and "beat" cancer. Plus, yellow bracelets. I'm not sure racing really entered the public perception of him much at all.


Yeahhh that's when he stopped being an athlete-whatever in my mind and instead became another Utah-Malibu-millionaire-celebrity-douche.
ghost
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Reply #253 on: October 10, 2012, 03:59:56 PM

Lance and Kristin got divorced in 2003.  Prior to that it would have been a challenge to find someone that didn't at least appreciate what the guy was doing unless they were some insider that had an axe to grind.
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Reply #254 on: October 10, 2012, 04:07:42 PM

Lance and Kristin got divorced in 2003.  Prior to that it would have been a challenge to find someone that didn't at least appreciate what the guy was doing unless they were some insider that had an axe to grind.

Well, that was the distinction I made. People admired him but he always came across like a dick. And I'm not talking about SEKRIT INSIDERZ.

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #255 on: October 10, 2012, 04:12:06 PM

Okay, you're going to argue that public opinion on Lance Armstrong wasn't fucking golden prior to 2003?  And that it wasn't at least pretty damned good prior to Discovery?  That's just daffy.   swamp poop

Also:

Not true. Most people I know (working in the industry) thought of him as an asshole. They may not have thought or believed that he was doping, but they all thought he was a dickhead. He certainly came across that way the one time I met him. But that was one time.

 Ohhhhh, I see.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:15:40 PM by ghost »
Rasix
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Reply #256 on: October 10, 2012, 04:20:30 PM

Dude. 

-Rasix
sickrubik
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Reply #257 on: October 10, 2012, 04:24:24 PM

Okay, you're going to argue that public opinion on Lance Armstrong wasn't fucking golden prior to 2003?  And that it wasn't at least pretty damned good prior to Discovery?  That's just daffy.   swamp poop

You're acting like I'm reading you the riot act. Back off the the ledge, jesus. We're not actually that far apart at all on the subject.

You said everyone, I said I didn't agree with that and stated why, from my perspective. You then said you meant public opinion, which I then understood as random Joe watching random sports stuff on a lark on ESPN and mass media.

Everyone single time I've stated people respected him for his accomplishments, but thought he was a dick. Now they don't respect him and still think he's a dick.

I stated my impressions come from within the industry, both casual riders and racers/manufactures/etcetc. And yes, that is 100% factual of my experiences in the industry. I don't care if that doesn't mesh with your expectations, but I've been working in the cycling industry since before 2003. He has always from what I can tell been viewed as a dick. Then he was viewed as a dick who was really good as his sport. Now he's just viewed as a dick. I can not make that any more clear. This is a really stupid disagreement. Shit, there REALLY isn't a disagreement. He's a cheating dickhead instead of just a dickhead who is a good racer and beat cancer.

And I have no god damn idea what you are trying to "prove" by that quote. I'm sorry if I've somehow made the conversation confusing. "working in the industry" was referring to myself, not the people that i know.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:26:41 PM by sickrubik »

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #258 on: October 10, 2012, 04:28:17 PM

Sorry for coming across aggressive.  That wasn't my intention. 

I'm just trying to point out that your experienced opinions (I believe that you are in the industry) is not going to be similar at all to what Joe Blow who went out and bought his Trek and rides 25 miles a day on the Texas access roads thought at the time. 

And now he's not viewed as just a dick, he's at Pete Rose levels of douchiness. 
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Reply #259 on: October 10, 2012, 04:33:35 PM

I never said it was the wide opinion! After you clarified your statement and helped me understand your point, I agreed with it in principal.

I'm really not trying to dance around where I work, I just prefer to keep that stuff kind of separate. I know how it can come across though.

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #260 on: October 10, 2012, 04:35:14 PM

Man, I think it would be totally fascinating to have been involved in the industry in the heyday of Lance versus Jan.  That was some awesome racing there, doping or no.   awesome, for real
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #261 on: October 10, 2012, 05:43:45 PM

Calling it, suicide within a month.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
ghost
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Reply #262 on: October 10, 2012, 05:51:28 PM

He's too narcissistic for that, I believe.  It will be interesting if it does.
sickrubik
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Reply #263 on: October 10, 2012, 05:55:31 PM

He doesn't have the balls to do that.  awesome, for real

beer geek.
Sir T
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Reply #264 on: October 10, 2012, 11:53:45 PM

Did all the dope make them shrivel?

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Cyrrex
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Reply #265 on: October 11, 2012, 12:57:40 AM

I think the joke being made is that his balls were lopped off because of all the cancer and stuff.  Though I was under the impression that he had only lost a single nut.  Really, I try not to dwell on other men's gonads whenever possible, so I not exactly sure. 

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
sickrubik
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Reply #266 on: October 11, 2012, 10:34:30 AM

I think the joke being made is that his balls were lopped off because of all the cancer and stuff.  Though I was under the impression that he had only lost a single nut.  Really, I try not to dwell on other men's gonads whenever possible, so I not exactly sure. 

That is correct, but what I still said was true. He may have the ball to do it, but not the balls.  Ohhhhh, I see. Also, artistic license, etc etc.

beer geek.
ghost
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Reply #267 on: October 17, 2012, 08:41:47 AM

Well that didn't take long.

Nike drops Lance Armstrong

 awesome, for real
Paelos
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Reply #268 on: October 17, 2012, 08:46:35 AM

Let the dizzying fall from grace begin!

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ghost
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Reply #269 on: October 17, 2012, 08:50:04 AM

It's going to be ugly for him and for the sport of cycling.  I will still hold his 7 tour wins as one of the singular greatest achievements in sport.  Why?  It was a level playing field, more or less.  They were all doping.  The riders had to in order to have any hope of being competitive.  And his riding was extremely exciting to watch. 
Korachia
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Reply #270 on: October 17, 2012, 09:00:26 AM

Level playing field my ass. It was most assuredly not a level playing field. Some had better doping programs, medicine, doctors, connections, organisational backings and ect. than others. Whereas Lance had the whole team and management behind him, I am pretty sure that many others (who doped themselves) did so alone in a private restroom with the drugs available to them. That is not a level playing field.

Lance should lose everything of his empire which is build on the foundations of lying and cheating. That includes his titles.

With that said, I would be more than okay with the titles not being awarded to anybody els, since there were no clear winners.
Paelos
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Reply #271 on: October 17, 2012, 09:05:25 AM

That's sort of my problem with doping when the argument becomes "everyone was doing it" beyond my normal moral objection to the idea of cheating as a virtue or norm in the first place.

It creates an arms race of sorts with money becoming the key difference over talent. More money means better cheating and more wins. It's the same in baseball in the steroid era.

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ghost
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Reply #272 on: October 17, 2012, 09:17:57 AM

Level playing field my ass. It was most assuredly not a level playing field. Some had better doping programs, medicine, doctors, connections, organisational backings and ect. than others. Whereas Lance had the whole team and management behind him, I am pretty sure that many others (who doped themselves) did so alone in a private restroom with the drugs available to them.

With that said, I would be more than okay with the titles not being awarded to anybody els, since there were no clear winners.

I agree with you about not awarding the award to anyone else, but I hope that you don't believe that the rest of the field was doping in dirty restrooms and alleys.  It has been well documented that many other teams ran similar (although probably not as sophisticated) doping programs. 


Doping is just an area where will have to differ in opinions, I suppse.  I personally just don't give a shit if they dope.  It doesn't bother me at all.  I'm a spectator and, in my view, they all had high power teams bringing in lots of money and access to guys like Ferrari.  


But we've beaten that argument to death.

Anyhoo, his own charity has now dropped him as their chairman.  
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 09:21:44 AM by ghost »
Paelos
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Reply #273 on: October 17, 2012, 09:23:01 AM

I hope Livestrong tanks, as I've said behind. Fuck "cancer awareness."

We're aware. Research or GTFO.

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Nebu
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Reply #274 on: October 17, 2012, 09:24:09 AM

If cycling really cared, they would house all of the participants in a restricted dorm during multi-day races.  Never... gonna... happen.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
ghost
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Reply #275 on: October 17, 2012, 09:31:46 AM

If cycling really cared, they would house all of the participants in a restricted dorm during multi-day races.  Never... gonna... happen.

Oh, we can see how much cycling cared by the UCI's actions.  If the report is right, the UCI notified teams and racers ahead of time (either intentionally or through leaks and bribes) when testing was going to occur.  That didn't just happen with Armstrong's team, it happened across the peloton.

Also, the UCI is feeling the heat and I suspect will get a serious kick in the nuts from taking a blatant bribe from Armstrong when he was at his prime, both in doping and racing. 
UnsGub
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Reply #276 on: October 17, 2012, 09:47:00 AM

It creates an arms race of sorts with money becoming the key difference over talent.

Talent included the ability to use drugs.  All the top riders talent included getting the most from the products they used.  Same drugs have different effects on individuals, just like the same equipment\training does.

The top 100 pros in the world all had the money to pay for it and the organisations to make it happen.  Look at the client list of Operations Puerto for example.
Paelos
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Reply #277 on: October 17, 2012, 09:53:23 AM

They if it would provide a level playing field, why not just institutionalize and regulate it?

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ghost
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Reply #278 on: October 17, 2012, 10:00:46 AM

They if it would provide a level playing field, why not just institutionalize and regulate it?

They essentially did.   awesome, for real

It was just all behind the scenes.
Paelos
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Reply #279 on: October 17, 2012, 10:02:52 AM

No, they didn't. Why not come out and say you're allowing it publically?

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