The Pope's Health

[Paelos]

Needless to say he's old. He has Parkinson's. He's had the flu recently and everyone in the church seems to be planning on his death soon.

Pope's condition stablizes

I, for one, thought this recent hospital visit was it, but he's pulled through again. The man has got staying power, but how long will it last? Basically this thread is two-fold. One, what are your feelings on the current Pope, and how long do you think he has left? Two, what are your feelings on who should replace him.

Granted, I'm not Catholic so my viewpoint here isn't as connected to his well-being, but I've generally been in favor of the way this Pope has had his tenure with a few exceptions. Note, I don't mean for this to be political, I mean religious connotations, IE - I don't give two damns about his views on wars, diplomacy, or Iraq. I'm focused more on his job as the religious leader of a people.

[Big Gulp]

"Authorites say the phony Pope can be recognized by his high-top sneakers and incredibly foul mouth"

[stray]

I'm not Catholic (I'm a little too secular for my own good, but just to mention, my faith is Orthodox), but I think the Pope is "cool". He's a former actor, has a well rounded view of culture and art (as far as "popes" go), and is a lot more open-minded than a lot of people think (I mean, what other Pope writes about how much he liked "Dark City"?).

As pertaining to faith, I only know a few things about how he leads his own people, but where I give him credit is that he's made more effort in communicating to the rest of the world (other Christians and non-Christians) than any other pope before him. Whether that be Castro, the Orthodox Patriarch, Jewish rabbis, the Dalai Lama, or Billy Graham.

It'll be sad to him go. He struck a good balance between ecumenism and zeal, something most of his potential successors do not have.

[Big Gulp]

It'll be sad to him go. He struck a good balance between ecumenism and zeal, something most of his potential successors do not have.

I'm not worried.  His replacement seems like a good guy.

[Mi_Tes]

Odd, but our Priest is currently visiting the Vatican.  

The Pope has had over 25 years in that position and it seems from the pictures that his health continues to decline.  I think at this point, he has already outlived the expectations.

As for who replaces him, I hope (although know the odds are extreemly remote) the next Pope will be much more liberal on the issues of birth control, abortion, divorce, and the ordination of women.

[stray]

As for who replaces him, I hope (although know the odds are extreemly remote) the next Pope will be much more liberal on the issues of birth control, abortion, divorce, and the ordination of women.

Like I said, "struck a good balance between ecumenism and zeal". It's a great thing to loosen some restrictions and work with others, but to throw one's faith completely away in the process is futile.

[AlteredOne]

I think the new Pope should play an undead priest in WoW, so that he can effectively reach out to the Horde.

This might also help underpopulation issues, because, you know, who wouldn't want to have the Pope as their healer.

[El Gallo]

The current Pope has created a ton of new cardinalships and filled those positions with people in the traditionalist wing of the Church, so I would expect the next Pope to have similar views.  Their views on abortion will probably never change.  As radical as I can see them getting is saying that it is OK for married people to use birth control, but even that would be a pretty big step. Women's ordination will probably happen someday, as the Church is losing its ability to recruit enough priests in the first world, but that day is long, long away.  On economic issues, they will continue to bitch about poor people getting screwed (the Church is well left-of-center economically even by European standards, to say nothing of American standards) and the alienating nature of consumer society, and will continue to be roundly ignored.  

This Pope will be remembered for being an essential component in the collapse of the Soviet empire, for strangling the pro-communist liberation theology movement in Latin America, and for setting the tone that Vatican II was the exception, not the rule, primarily by reinforcing the Church's traditional views on biological matters.

If a reuinifcation with the Orthodox churches ever happens, he will be remembered as the initial driving force behind that, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[HaemishM]

He's lived 5 years longer than I ever expected him to, so a hearty "Good on ya!" to the man.

I'm not Catholic, and I sure don't respect much about organized religion. However, I have to say that I really respect this man. And the thing that made me respect him was his continued insistence on tolerance of other cultures, religions and peoples. In a time when certain parts of the world seem intent on killing all the other parts of the world solely based on their on religion-based intolerance, I think that was a positive message, especially coming from the pontiff of one of the world's historically intolerant religious organizations.

[Big Gulp]

And the thing that made me respect him was his continued insistence on tolerance of other cultures, religions and peoples.

And paedophile priests!  Tolereant, tolerant, tolerant.

Of course, I'm a disaffected ex-Catholic, so meh.

[HaemishM]

I wouldn't say he was exactly tolerant of that, considering the amount of things that went on once the whole scandal came out. Let's face it, pedophiliac priests have been a long-standing tradition amongst the Church, as well as adjudicating all trangressions by members of the clergy internally. Expecting them NOT to cover that up is a bit much.

[Big Gulp]

Expecting them NOT to cover that up is a bit much.

When the scandal is well and truly out there and there's nothing more to cover up I expect to see some action taken, like kicking Cardinal Law to the curb post haste.  Never happened.

Then I've seen how my sister was treated when she divorced her cheating first husband.  She's practically persona non grata with them.  Fuck the Catholic church.  If you're a Christian you're better off with the real Christians in one of the Protestant denominations, because really Catholicism even post-Vatican II is just a crypto-Christian cult.  And sorry, but I've got to lay most of this shit at the feet of the Pope, because the buck stops with him.

[Paelos]

If you're a Christian you're better off with the real Christians in one of the Protestant denominations, because really Catholicism even post-Vatican II is just a crypto-Christian cult.  And sorry, but I've got to lay most of this shit at the feet of the Pope, because the buck stops with him.

Granted I know little of the Catholicism doctrines that exist now, but you should know that randomly picking Protestant denominations does you no good either. I would take the Catholics over the Southern Baptists all day. Catholics have some structure, history, and frankly at least an idea of what they believe with some reasoning. Not always the case, but generally. Southern Baptists, I swear to you, seem to make stuff up as they go along. That, and they have probably the most ridiculous views on drinking and gambling that I've ever heard of in my life. Two pursuits of mine that I happen to enjoy in moderation.

[HaemishM]

Southern Baptist = Well-Mannered Hypocrisy

But then again, I feel that way about most religions, not just the one I mostly grew up with.

But this is derailing. We were talking about the Catholic Pope's failing health, and his potential legacy. Gulp brings up a good point about the Pope's lack of action on people like Cardinal Law, and I think the scandal may well be a significant part of the Pope's legacy, at least to Americans.

[Merusk]

The biggest part of the Pope's legacy?  Mary with her "Co-Redeemer" status.

  Gulp is correct in his evaluation of Catholicism as a Pseudo-Christian cult.  It's begun to evolve more into a cult of Mary vs the cult of Jesus after it started out as a worship of the teachings of the Son of God.

Really tho. JP2 will always be the guy I think of when I hear "The Pope".  That's probably the case for many of you as well since you're calling him, "The Pope" rather than JP2.

[AlteredOne]

Southern Baptist = Well-Mannered Hypocrisy

When I was five, my Southern Baptist father insisted that my mother take me to his type of church.  Nevermind that he insisted on sleeping late, and never attended once.  So my mother and I went a few times, until one Sunday the pastor explained that nearly everyone was going to hell, including the children.  I was confused by exactly what I had done to deserve eternal damnation, and my mother decided we would be Methodists instead.

But then I went to Catholic school in the 1980s, because it was affordable compared to other schools, and because naturally my father's child was too good for school with the commoner masses.  Besides, Southern Baptist schools are renowned for their suckage.  I learned that Catholics have some pretty complex rituals compared to Protestants, and they drink real wine.  Pope JP was quite the anti-communist hero.  I remember the Marvel comic (or was it DC?) celebrating the Pope's life.  The Catholic school girls were strangely hot in their matching dresses, but I think the Church itself left a bad taste in my mouth.  One of the monks punished me for liking the song "Rock of Ages" by Def Leppard, which he claimed was anti-Christian.  Looking back on it, I guess it was cool that the school made no real effort to proselytize among the non-Catholic students.  Baptists would have had me memorizing Bible verses every night.

Back in 1991 when I was working in Europe for summer, I accidentally ran into the Pope in Kracow Poland, his home town.  I say "accidentally" because I was just bumming around Eastern Europe in youth hostels, and I just happen upon what might have been his first post-Communist visit to the place where he started as a priest.  I stood on a street corner and got close-up shots of the Popemobile.  You had to see the crowds to believe it.  Poles greeted the man like a rock star, and I ran into lots of Russians and others who travelled huge distances to see him.  

I still live in the South, but I can proudly say that I belong to no denomination, although I do have a healthy respect for the better aspects of most religions.  I'm also no big fan of private schooling.  The point of this autobiographical digression?  I dunno, just felt like writing it, and I think the current Pope qualifies as a "great man" for more reasons than simply his office.  He worked very hard on behalf of the world's poor and disenfranchised, and his efforts were pivotal in the democratic revolution in Eastern Europe.  I do not agree with him on all his political positions, but I think he deserves respect.

[stray]

As for Southern Baptists: Remember, for every Fred Phelps, there's always a Martin Luther King Jr. across the street.

[Paelos]

As for Southern Baptists: Remember, for every Fred Phelps, there's always a Martin Luther King Jr. across the street.

And they shot him. Unfortunately nobody has the stones for taking out Falwell. They only kill the ones we love.

[HaemishM]

Why kill Falwell? He talks long enough and anyone with one-eight of a functioning brain can see how full of shit he is.

They only kill the dangerous ones.

[sidereal]

I call him Karol.  Great guy.  Reformed thespian.

[daveNYC]

I remember reading that the Catholic church has no way of removing the Pope if he becomes incapacitated.  He can step down, he can be replaced if he dies, but I'm not sure what ends up happening if he slips into a coma.  Obviously though, they would never pull the plug.

The last story I read about the Pope (it was over the weekend) was about a dove that had been released at the end of one of his speaches.  The weather in Rome was colder than usual and the dove decided that it was not going to go outside, and flew back into the Pope's apartment.  The Pope shooed it out, and it flew back in again.  According to the article he was getting a good laugh out of it.

If he ends up dieing, I can think of worse things to be remembered by.

[Jayce]

I remember reading that the Catholic church has no way of removing the Pope if he becomes incapacitated.  He can step down, he can be replaced if he dies, but I'm not sure what ends up happening if he slips into a coma.  Obviously though, they would never pull the plug.

The last story I read about the Pope (it was over the weekend) was about a dove that had been released at the end of one of his speaches.  The weather in Rome was colder than usual and the dove decided that it was not going to go outside, and flew back into the Pope's apartment.  The Pope shooed it out, and it flew back in again.  According to the article he was getting a good laugh out of it.

If he ends up dieing, I can think of worse things to be remembered by.

Actually Catholics are against euthanasia, but artificial prolonging of life when there is no hope doesn't fall into that.

Anyway, I'm currently converting to Catholicism.  I have learned a few things in passing about him in the course of that, and I really think he's an amazing guy.  I want to learn more about his history just on what I have learned so far.  To come out of Nazi occupation as a young man and be non-insane is an acheivement in and of itself, and just the fact that you group of heathens don't entirely dismiss him, even if you do the Church, is another one.

I don't know how someone manages to bring in the respect for life and respect for the downtrodden of liberalism, while retaining the foundations of tradition even when world at large basically pooh-poohs those ideas, but he pulls it off.  Amazing individual.

[schild]

I went to Italy in 1998 and was in one of his audiences - that man is immortal if he's not dead in 2 years time.

[kaid]

While I may not agree with everything the pope says he is clearly a good man who has tried to do alot of good over his long career.  I am not a very religeous person but I can respect a man who truly believes in something without turning into a froathing loony.

After he passes do not expect much from the next pope. There is a pretty set pattern that after a very popular long lived pope they usually select the next pope from one of the really elderly clergy who is not expected to last to long. This way it helps highlight the popular popes career and gives some breathing room for the  real sucessor to not walk so closely in the shadows of such a popular figure.


kaid

[Jeff Kelly]

As for who replaces him, I hope (although know the odds are extreemly remote) the next Pope will be much more liberal on the issues of birth control, abortion, divorce, and the ordination of women.

At the moment it seems that Kardinal Ratzinger has the best chances for succeding the current pope, unfortunately he is extremley rigth wing and has a very reactonary stance on topics like birth control, abortion, same-sex marriages and so on.

Jeff

[Strazos]

1 - I don't have anything against the Pope personally....but I do think pretty much every form of Western organized religion is a crock. I don't give JP much time....3 years tops?

2 - I don't really Care who replaces him, but I have an idea of who will.....Within the church, there has been a lot of talk of the next Pope being from Africa. It hasn't happened for hundreds of years, and that is where the church is doing a lot of work nowadays.

[Paelos]

1 - I don't have anything against the Pope personally....but I do think pretty much every form of Western organized religion is a crock. I don't give JP much time....3 years tops?

It's funny, but I think the exact same thing about the other hemisphere.

[Sky]

I thought he was already animatronic, you know, like Bush and Cheney. Robot Pope!

[stray]

1 - I don't have anything against the Pope personally....but I do think pretty much every form of Western organized religion is a crock. I don't give JP much time....3 years tops?

It's funny, but I think the exact same thing about the other hemisphere.

And here I am, the Eastern Orthodox guy, wondering how Christianity could ever be concieved as "Western" in the first place :)

[Jayce]

1 - I don't have anything against the Pope personally....but I do think pretty much every form of Western organized religion is a crock. I don't give JP much time....3 years tops?

It's funny, but I think the exact same thing about the other hemisphere.

And here I am, the Eastern Orthodox guy, wondering how Christianity could ever be concieved as "Western" in the first place :)

I do seem to recall something about Nazareth, Galilee, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Egypt in connection with Christianity....

[Paelos]

I respect Buddhists out of the whole bunch of Eastern religions because they respect other cultures equally. They also seem to understand the tenets of a peaceful inner spirit, which is a good start. I think many facets of Buddhist thought and true Christianity fit nicely.

Hindus on the other hand are too inconsistant to really count as a world faith in my book. It's like considering Roman Mythology a viable present day religion. Plus, it changes depending on what part of India you happen to be in. So yeah, polytheism, no thanks. Shintoists just make me laugh because its so contrived and new. Kinda like Mormons or or Scientologists.

[stray]

I do seem to recall something about Nazareth, Galilee, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Egypt in connection with Christianity....

Those would be the "East". The Middle Eastern mindset has far more in common with Asians than they do Europeans and Americans.

[Hanzii]

I respect Buddhists out of the whole bunch of Eastern religions because they respect other cultures equally. They also seem to understand the tenets of a peaceful inner spirit, which is a good start. I think many facets of Buddhist thought and true Christianity fit nicely.

Hindus on the other hand are too inconsistant to really count as a world faith in my book. It's like considering Roman Mythology a viable present day religion. Plus, it changes depending on what part of India you happen to be in. So yeah, polytheism, no thanks. Shintoists just make me laugh because its so contrived and new. Kinda like Mormons or or Scientologists.

I didn't think you were allowed to shop around. I thought there was just one true God and a lot of midguided unfotunates.
But I like how you seem to have this top 10 of superstition. It's ok if your religion is really old, but not to old. And believing in several Gods is somewhat more silly than believing in one creator?

The pope? He seems honest, sincere and nice enough, but overall I think his church is guilty og more evil than good.

[Jayce]

overall I think his church is guilty og more evil than good.

Much like the average person.

[Jealous Deva]

Hindus on the other hand are too inconsistant to really count as a world faith in my book. It's like considering Roman Mythology a viable present day religion. Plus, it changes depending on what part of India you happen to be in. So yeah, polytheism, no thanks.

Hinduism isn't really intended to be a world faith, there's no conversion or other people or attempts at prothelyzation.  It's really just a collection of old polythiestic religions which are all unified in a sort of meta-religion.  And you could comfortably fit Christianity or Islam inside that meta-religion without really conflicting with the theology of either side, which has actually been done at times in India.  But the whole thing is much, much more robust than any western mythology, getting into things like the nature of gods, morality, the nature of souls, the roles of human beings in the world, etc.   That kind of thing just wasn't present in European religions before christianity, being relegated mostly to the realm of philosophy.