Bank Fee Insanity

[Reg]

Canadian banks don't generally do that kind of nonsense. Not because they're nice people but because they still fantasize that the government will someday allow them all to merge into one super bank that's "too big to fail" and can get up to the kind of wacky hijinks our southern neighbours are into.  So for now, they try not to be obvious douchebags to the public.

[ghost]

Banks are okay, but you really need to shop around.   I suggest a local/regional bank that has a good rating.  Chase, Citi, BoA, etc. are not interested in individual customers.  There are also shady local/regional banks.  And I agree with whoever above said that USAA was a good experience.  It is the best bank I've dealt with, hands down.

[Bunk]

People that complain about overdraft fees are morons. Don't overdraft.  How hard is it to go to an ATM and check your balance?

Here's the catch - it wasn't her fault. she was planning on closing the account and only had $11 in it. She called us to change the account her monthly billing comes out of, and we missed one of the charges. That caused her to overdraft about $12.

The point where it get's really evil is here:
 - she noticed the overdraft a few weeks later and told us - so we refunded the charge that was placed on the wrong account, advising her that most banks reverse the overdraft fees once we reverse our charge (most of them do)
 - the bank then told her that they would not reverse the charges as we just gave her a refund, and that doesn't count as reversing the charge
 - I then advised her to dispute the original charge completely then (we would not fight it) - the bank refuses to dispute the charge, because it was refunded

[NowhereMan]

Worst I'm aware of over here in the UK, from a friend who worked as a teller for a few years, is the way people who don't really understand credit scores and the like get fucked when they decide to go mortgage shopping the way you shop for anything else. Going into all the different banks on the high street and comparing the rates they get offered, which results in 7 or 8 credit checks in an hour which totally fucks their credit rating and instead of being able to get the 8% mortgage they were offered by bank A an hour ago they're getting offered 23%. Outside of that though, I don't get charged for withdrawing from any bank ATM (as in any) and have a reasonable charge and interest free overdraft on my account with a much bigger possible one if I warn the bank beforehand. I avoid getting overdrawn (beyond what I can) by just frequently checking my balance and generally trying to pay for things with cash from the ATM. I usually know roughly how much is in there.

[Chimpy]

Banks are okay, but you really need to shop around.   I suggest a local/regional bank that has a good rating.  Chase, Citi, BoA, etc. are not interested in individual customers.  There are also shady local/regional banks.  And I agree with whoever above said that USAA was a good experience.  It is the best bank I've dealt with, hands down.

Here, the locally owned banks are worse than Chase in how they treat their individual customers.

And USAA is not really a bank in the same sense as all the other banks. They operate more like an old school credit union with their membership requirements. They also are not really for profit in the usual sense if I recall correctly. But yes, they are about as good a bank as you will ever find (and insurance company too).

[Lantyssa]

That's the trick, really.  Find a CU or bank that isn't for-profit.  If all reinvestment goes back into the bank instead of dividends or a CEO's pocket, it'll likely be good.

[Paelos]

That's the trick, really.  Find a CU or bank that isn't for-profit.  If all reinvestment goes back into the bank instead of dividends or a CEO's pocket, it'll likely be good.

Check their agreements and financials before you do this. All not-for-profits are not equal.

[Minvaren]

That's the trick, really.  Find a CU or bank that isn't for-profit.  If all reinvestment goes back into the bank instead of dividends or a CEO's pocket, it'll likely be good.

Check their agreements and financials before you do this. All not-for-profits are not equal.

Definitely check their financials - a couple of CUs I was looking into in Houston were bleeding money, and I decided against using them for that reason.

[Samwise]

And I agree with whoever above said that USAA was a good experience.  It is the best bank I've dealt with, hands down.

I've got a USAA account but I haven't looked at banking with them.  Do they have one of those deals where you can use other ATMs for free?  I switched to BofA from a smaller bank about a decade ago solely because I was tired of paying $2 every time I wanted to use one of their ubiquitous ATMs.

[ghost]

And I agree with whoever above said that USAA was a good experience.  It is the best bank I've dealt with, hands down.

I've got a USAA account but I haven't looked at banking with them.  Do they have one of those deals where you can use other ATMs for free?  I switched to BofA from a smaller bank about a decade ago solely because I was tired of paying $2 every time I wanted to use one of their ubiquitous ATMs.

Yes.  They reimburse you for ATM fees, or at least did when I banked with them.  

I had to switch banks for everyday use for a couple of reasons.  

And USAA is not really a bank in the same sense as all the other banks. They operate more like an old school credit union with their membership requirements. They also are not really for profit in the usual sense if I recall correctly. But yes, they are about as good a bank as you will ever find (and insurance company too).

There were no membership requirements when I started my accounts there. 

[Chimpy]

There were no membership requirements when I started my accounts there. 

USAA was originally Active duty and retired US military officers and their dependents, they opened it up to non-comissioned as well later and relaxed the rules on how closely related you had to be to open accounts. Do they let the general public open accounts there now?

[ghost]

Do they let the general public open accounts there now?

I would have to assume so, since I would be considered "general public".  I'm not sure if it's still the same.  I opened my account around 10 years ago.  

I think the requirements now just pertain to their insurance products. 

[Xuri]

*shakes head in wonder and amazement*

My banking experience from Norway:

• I didn't have a credit-card in Norway. I didn't need to build up some imaginary "credit-rating" to be able to get a loan.
• I had a debit-card, with a VISA-part on it. I did not separate between "debit-use" or "VISA-use". I swiped (swoop?) my card in shops, I entered my card-number and other relevant info when shopping online. No absurd fees for doing so.
• No absurd fees for withdrawing money from ATMs, no limited amount of withdrawals per month. Even so, I carried cash more and more seldom since there was no downside to just swiping my card wherever I went (also no limits on the amount of times I could do so), since just about everywhere had card-readers.
• I could use online banking to transfer money from my account to any other bank account in Norway, whether owned by a private person or a company, independently of whether they're using the same bank as me. The transfer would for the most part take place more or less instantaneously.
• I could use online banking to setup automatic payment of certain bills - and they would not go through unless there was actually money on my account, so no absurd overdraft fees.
  
• Cheques were an archaic, outdated system of money transfer that I last saw in the early 1990s, which was around the time when Norway collectively said "fuck this" and burned all cheque-books, to much cheering, hat-throwing and eating of freshly killed whale.

My more recent banking experience from Montreal, Canada:

• I apparently need credit-rating, so I can get a credit-card, which I can use to build up my credit-rating, as well as buy stuff online. Because it would be too damn hard to make a debit-card with VISA support.
• Banks arbitrarily approve or reject credit-card applications based on random factors such as time of day, the current weather outside, what the current terrorist-threat level is at, etc. We were a big bunch of people who moved over from Oslo together, and some have gotten rejected outright for not having any credit-rating, some have gotten credit-cards with $1000 limits, some with $5000 limits. Some needed letter of reference from their previous bank in a different country, some did not. Some needed letter of reference from employer, some did not. Same bank, people from same nationality/region in the world, applying at roughly the same time, working in the same company.
• Banks arbitrarily cancel credit-cards outright without as much as a phone-call to the customer if they have the tiniest bits of suspicion that something might not be right. Such as the customer withdrawing $500 from an ATM. While not cancelling the credit-cards for other people who've withdrawn much more, and more often.
• I can withdraw money from ATMs a limited amount of times per month, and pay hefty fees every time I do so. I can also only use my debit-card a limited amount of times per month, with hefty fees every time I do so.
• I CAN use online banking to pay bills - but only if the company I'm paying the bill to is in the list of companies approved by the bank. Also, apparently the advanced computer systems over here need a minimum of 5 days to transfer the money between accounts. Because that's hard.
• I can NOT transfer money to people who use other banks than mine. Unless they support some weird "transfer money by e-mail"-scheme. Which not all the banks do. As such, I can't pay my rent online, but have to time-travel back to the 1980s to get hold of paper cheques, which I then need to snail-mail. And after my landlady goes to the bank with said cheques, they'll be stuck in the system for up to a week for "processing reasons".

Up until coming here I had not even seen a cheque since the early 1990s, when Norway as a collective nation said "fuck this archaic system. It's slow and outdated" and dropped using them completely and instead went along with a much saner and easier system which actually benefits the people who use it.

Yes, yes. Norway = smaller country, less logistics involved, etc and so forth. Whatever, doesn't change the fact that banking (and cellphone service providers, not to mention internet service providers - which are completely different stories) suck donkey ass in Canada - and in the rest of Northern America as well, from what I've heard.

[Lantyssa]

Capitalism rocks, right?

Swiped is correct.  Swoop is a bike that alien racers blow up in dramatic fashion.

[Merusk]

There were no membership requirements when I started my accounts there.  

USAA was originally Active duty and retired US military officers and their dependents, they opened it up to non-comissioned as well later and relaxed the rules on how closely related you had to be to open accounts. Do they let the general public open accounts there now?

ed: Because I missed this post.


Yes, the requirements are still there.  Service member or child of a service member.  They've been advertising USAA banking on the local radio for the last week so I listened just to be sure when I realized who it was.  I want my kids to use them, but they're ineligible.

I've had USAA for insurance since I started driving and switched to banking with them a year ago when I found out they had it.  Best banking experience of my life.  (Oh, you're transferring money from another account? We'll credit that to you right now, we trust it'll be there. No, you don't have to wait for us to hold it and gain interest for ourselves on the x-fer for 3 business days.  Fucking awesome.)

Too bad my kids won't be able to use 'em.

Ed#2
https://www.usaa.com/inet/ent_utils/McStaticPages?key=why_choose_usaa_eligibility_main&wa_ref=wcu_main_is_usaa_for_you

Looks like if you're the child of a member you can join for insurance, but ANYONE can join banking.  Their commercial is misleading and now I'm going to e-mail them as such.   I can't recommend them enough if anyone's thinking of switching banks.  The only bitch part is it's all online so you can't deposit cash on those rare instances you get it.

[Chimpy]

You CAN send cash in the deposit envelopes they will send you if you request them, but they don't recommend it.

I have not done anything with my USAA checking account in about 9 years since they refuse to give me anything but a Maestro Debit card which (unlike my VISA check card from Chase) I can't use like a credit card.

I did have my car loans through them, and my insurance is all through them though. One thing that was cool about my first car loan was that my dad cosigned it, so he could make payments on it online (which he did a couple times as a birthday present).

[Merusk]

Really? Why won't they give you anything else?  I've got a Master Card debit card with 2% back on all purchases made with it and have had it since I opened the account.

[Ingmar]

I was with USAA long ago and they only offered the Maestro thing at the time to me as well. This was over a decade ago, though.

[shiznitz]

People that complain about overdraft fees are morons. Don't overdraft.  How hard is it to go to an ATM and check your balance?

Here's the catch - it wasn't her fault. she was planning on closing the account and only had $11 in it. She called us to change the account her monthly billing comes out of, and we missed one of the charges. That caused her to overdraft about $12.

The point where it get's really evil is here:
 - she noticed the overdraft a few weeks later and told us - so we refunded the charge that was placed on the wrong account, advising her that most banks reverse the overdraft fees once we reverse our charge (most of them do)
 - the bank then told her that they would not reverse the charges as we just gave her a refund, and that doesn't count as reversing the charge
 - I then advised her to dispute the original charge completely then (we would not fight it) - the bank refuses to dispute the charge, because it was refunded

First, thank you for correcting me.  Moron doesn't apply to her.  Second, that is some crazy insane bureaucratic bullshit.

[Sky]

Credit cards are great, if you abuse the system. Rewards cards and store cards can net you some great deals, I usually get a few hundred bucks worth of stuff a year by timing purchases and using incentives. I channel everything through my amazon card and get good rewards from it, and contrary to what someone said about negatively impacting your credit, when I checked my credit this year, I was stunned how high it is. I do keep a couple extra cards that don't get a lot of use (mostly store cards for big purchases), so it keeps my balance vs available at a good ratio.

I have a debit card, but I never use it. Stuff like overdrafts (keep a cushion) and temp charges for gas and hotels, just not worth using.

I'm lucky to have two regional banks. I had one local, but they just sold out to a regional from New England...we're crossing our fingers on that one, as they hold my mortgage and have been an amazingly successful bank (which is why they were prime for buyout, of course).

[WayAbvPar]

I very rarely come close to overdrafting, but I have a line of credit attached to my checking account as a failsafe- if I overdraw, the bank automatically draws from the LoC to cover it. Paying a bit of interest beats getting beaten up by OD fees. Another option is to tie it to your savings account, and have that cover in case of an overdraft. But as has been said, the best way to do it is to bank with someone whose prime directive isn't 'screw everyone out of as much money as legally possible every chance we get'.

[Lantyssa]

..., and contrary to what someone said about negatively impacting your credit, when I checked my credit this year, I was stunned how high it is. I do keep a couple extra cards that don't get a lot of use (mostly store cards for big purchases), so it keeps my balance vs available at a good ratio.

I do the exact same.  One that I use a lot, another I put about $20 a month on, and another that is for emergencies only and is never touched.  Every time I've gotten a loan the loan officer boggles at how good my credit score is.

[slog]

Heh.

I don't have any of these problems with Bank of America.  It's really not that hard to keep track of your balance in a spreadsheet.

[Kitsune]

Financial institutions in general suck in the US; they're sharks on a scale usually reserved for law firms and recording agencies.  Trying to buy a house was pants on head retarded entirely due to the banks dicking around about whether they felt like a 20% down payment and co-signing relatives was sufficient for them to do me the favor of charging 6% interest for thirty years.

In the end, I just borrowed from the relatives and'm paying them 5% interest for thirty years, which was way more than the bank was paying them for that money, so everybody wins.  Except the banks.  Fuck them.

I have an email notification set up on my checking account to alert me if it ever drops under $100, and a credit card that I never ever use connected as overdraft protection, just in case.  I haven't overdrawn in a long time, and don't aim to start now.

And it's not that I don't appreciate banks in theory, or feel that I should receive a bunch of financial services for free.  It just really rubs me the wrong way that their entire model for profit seems to be based off of an engine of douchebaggery.  I'd feel better just paying a yearly fee and receiving a guarantee of honest treatment in return instead of getting "free" and having to tiptoe through a minefield if I don't want to get fucked.

[Nerf]

This will probably need it's own thread in a few days, but for now it can sit here-

Stef and I are buying a house, after an exhaustive search we finally found a place we liked, went through like 9 fucking offer/counteroffer cycles with the buyer and finally got a signed contract.  We scan and email the contract and all banking info, 401k info, w2s, etc, etc over to the loan guy Sunday night.  We hear nothing until Thursday, when the loan disclosure docs show up, everything looks good.

Today stef gets an email from the 'document coordinator' or whatever that works for underwriting, emails her some forms to finish filling out and some random docs we need to send.

60% or so of whats on there is wrong.  Closing costs, fees, etc are completely different on two documents, they are requesting a 'gift' form to show that someone is giving us $3k to cover closing costs, except the seller is covering 95% of the closing costs and we've got enough in the bank to cover double what we're required.

As best we can figure, they filled out the paperwork with information that stef gave the loan guy on the phone almost 2 months ago, only looked at 1/2 of the actually contract, and ignored all of the financials that were submitted.

And people wonder why theres so many fucked up mortgages, heh.

[Kitsune]

When I was trying to get a mortgage, Bank of America was one of the banks I went to, because one of my friends mentioned having had a good experience with them for his house.  So I contact them and get a very nice lady, real helpful, who collects all of the pertinent information.

A couple days later, eight o-clock, middle of dinner, my phone rings.  A woman with a heavy accent informs me that she's from Bank of America and wants to discuss my mobile home purchase.  I explain to her that a: I'm not buying a mobile home, I'm buying a townhouse, and b: I'm in a restaurant and not near any of my paperwork to discuss with her.  This exact same scenario repeats three days later.  Same woman, still thinks I'm buying a mobile home, still calls at an unseemly late hour.

So I call the first lady back to find out what the hell is going on and she discovers that, despite one of their mortgage centers being in my town, I've been assigned to a mortgage center in California.  She promises to make some calls to see about getting my application transferred to the agents in my state.

A week after that, dinnertime, phone rings.  California woman is still very curious about my mobile home.  I just tell her that I'll call her back.

Two weeks later, I received a letter in the mail informing me that my loan application had been denied because I was trying to purchase a mobile home.

[Paelos]

That's not that uncommon really. The hilarious loan questions I get because I'm their CPA...  

[Nerf]

This would be a lot less sad if she didn't work for the same goddamn bank we were getting a mortgage through, you think that they would at least bother to read the goddamn contract.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Bank of America has excelled at douchebaggery since at least the early 90's when they were still North Carolina National Back and barely dreaming of taking their special brand of screw-the-little-guy regional.

[Merusk]

Bank of America has excelled at douchebaggery since at least the early 90's when they were still North Carolina National Back and barely dreaming of taking their special brand of screw-the-little-guy regional.

Erm.. BoA started in California in 1929.  (Well, earlier, actually but that's when the BoA name was taken.)  What they did was bought-out NCNB and imported/ morphed their own brand of douche baggery to you.   Much like 5/3 and PNC have done via the latest banking crisis.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Actually, NCNB merged/bought it's way into becoming a regional player, changing its name to Nations Bank along the way, then bought Bank of America and assumed the name to turn into a national player.  While technically a merger, perhaps, the money (billions of dollars) went from Nations Bank to BoA shareholders, and the control all went from BoA to the former Nations Bank.

I know nothing about BoA's business practices prior to their merger with Nations Bank, but if they were a fraction as douchey then as now then the two were true kindred spirits.  Although, to be honest, BoA's policies and customer service seem significantly less evil now than they were, say, 5 years ago.  I'm not sure if they've actually gotten any nicer, if the financial crisis is squeezing their nuts enough to force some degree of civility, or if it's simply a matter of the rest of the industry having discoverd that greed (and contempt for small accounts/customers) is very profitable to the point where it's the new norm.

[MahrinSkel]

Official BofA history is relative: It depends on which state you're in, whatever bank they purchased to crack into that state is now the official original bank, as far as their official statements are concerned.  Having worked for a regional bank that BofA purchased before the NCNB "merger", I can assure you that the douchebaggery did not start with that transaction.

I also find it amusing that 3-4 years ago I was mocked for telling people to switch their personal banking to Credit Unions by some of the very same people now advising the move.  Credit Unions have no incentive to screw their customers, and until someone manages the repeal the last remaining vestige of Glass-Steagall, cannot be bought up by major banks (unlike the few remaining regional banks, which are merely waiting their turn).

--Dave

[Furiously]

I would imagine there is still good money in making a bank with the intent of being bought out.

[Merusk]

I also find it amusing that 3-4 years ago I was mocked for telling people to switch their personal banking to Credit Unions by some of the very same people now advising the move. 

I don't remember anyone mocking you for suggesting it.  I do recall people asking about them.  I know your post 3-4 years ago is what first made me look into them for my local banking, because I didn't know anything about them at the time.

[MahrinSkel]

I also find it amusing that 3-4 years ago I was mocked for telling people to switch their personal banking to Credit Unions by some of the very same people now advising the move.  

I don't remember anyone mocking you for suggesting it.  I do recall people asking about them.  I know your post 3-4 years ago is what first made me look into them for my local banking, because I didn't know anything about them at the time.

As I recall, mockery was involved, but I was so defensive over other things that were being debated at the time I may have been mixing them up.

Anyway, yes, if your personal banking is not with a Credit Union, you are providing the money for derivatives speculation by the trading desk of your bank, and getting screwed by fees to the bargain.  I'm not saying the roof will fall in tomorrow, but there's no reason *not* to move your money to a CU unless you're routinely moving hundreds of thousands of dollars around, and lots of reasons you should.

You want to get one that is covered by NCUA (the equivalent of FDIC, all Federal CU's and most state-chartered ones are) for the protection of your deposits, and there are various "shared branching" associations that are very useful.  My CU only has a dozen or so branches in the Austin area, but in almost every city there are CU's that are part of the same association, I can use their ATM's without fees, and make deposits/cash checks at their tellers, with *less* hassles and more liberal policies than with a national bank (for example, I have never had a problem getting them to verify a check and then make the funds available immediately, even for 5-figure checks drawn on out of state banks while at a "shared branch" of a different CU in a different state).

--Dave

EDIT: The reason CU's have no incentive to screw their depositors is that they are owned *by* their depositors, your deposits are an ownership stake in the cooperative and any profit has to be either lent out to members of the CU, or distributed to them as a dividend.