Bank Fee Insanity

[Bunk]

I just looked at a customer's bank statement and I still can't grasp the possibility of what the bank is doing being legal.

The customer had a balance of $12 in her account.
She had a couple products from us billing out of that account.
She called us to change cards, and one of the products was missed.
We billed her $23, putting her account to -$11.

The bank then charged her $37 for the overdraft, putting her account to -$48.
The bank then proceded to charge her $8 per day, including weekends as a daily overdraft fee.   

She brought it to our attention three weeks later, and we refunded the $23 and replaced it on her new card. Her bank is now telling her that that refund does not count as a "reversal" and instead is just a refund, therefore she owes them $200+, plus a further $8 per day.

(this is why we ask customers for Credit Cards rather than debit cards - apparently Americans don't use CCs any more though)

Debit Cards - a convenient way for your bank to ream out your ass if you ever screw up.

[Samwise]

If your checking account is routinely bordering on empty, a debit card is Not For You.

[Mrbloodworth]

This happened to me before.

I over-drafted once, for like 1$. The fee for that was 30$. However, every day after that, they attempted to charge the 30$. Pushing me to -90$, the next day more, and more and more. Basically snowballing the fee every day because the fee could not be collected on, so I was charged more fees for them attempting to collect on the previous fee.

I had to settle the bill as I had no recourse. Top it all off with the insult that I could have just applied for overdraft protection (A loan system) and would have avoided all this (at 30 something% interest as its drawn as cash).

Once again, I'm sure the rich dont have this problem, so why should there be any regulations? Me and your client are lazy people who deserve what happened to us.  

If your checking account is routinely bordering on empty, a debit card is Not For You.

Debit Cards are the new hotness, because you can't charge more than you have in the bank...

Debit cards can be run as credit. If she or I had run it as debit it would have been declined. Now, also note, running it as credit, and over drawing, gives no such indication what so ever to you until your next statement.

[Lantyssa]

Debit Cards are the new hotness, because you can't charge more than you have in the bank...

Banks have gotten ridiculous with the fees.  Probably to make up for the tiny amount of credit card reform forced upon them in addition to being greedy fucks.  This is why I only use a local credit union.

[Nerf]

I could've sworn new legislation passed last year that made the whole 'spend more than is in your account' thing an opt-in system, and if you didn't opt in it just declined the charge.

I was looking over my statement a few days ago and noticed that every time I hit an ATM, i'm getting either double or triple charged, that should be a fun trip to the bank after finals.

(Withdraw $40, charge shows as atm location xx for $42.50, then theres another $2.50 fee from the same atm, and sometimes a third $2.50 fee)

[Bunk]

Debit cards can be run as credit. If she or I had run it as debit it would have been declined. Now, also note, running it as credit, and over drawing, gives no such indication what so ever to you until your next statement.

Essentially, they are running it as credit - and charging her interest on it. Effectively 26000% per year on that $11, considering what the balance would be at after a year of those $8 charges.

[Mrbloodworth]

Should be one from the ATM, then one for your bank if its not your bank ATM. But yeah  

[ghost]

A very, very good reason to use a credit card instead of a debit card is that if someone gets the number and charges shit they aren't doing it with your personal money. 

[Hawkbit]

Dress nicely and go into your local branch in person.  Ask to speak with someone regarding your account, not a teller at a window.  You want to sit down with someone to understand what happened, even if you already know what is going on.  Play dumb.  Ask for forgiveness, if they won't, ask them to meet you in the middle.  

If they can't at least do that, politely cancel your account and shift to another bank.  Mistakes happen.  Like any other business, they can't make money if they don't have you as a customer.  Just ask the person:  Is this $200 fee worth losing a lifetime of business with your organization.  

They might tell you to go fuckoff... if they do, just close it and walk out.

[Hawkbit]

(Withdraw $40, charge shows as atm location xx for $42.50, then theres another $2.50 fee from the same atm, and sometimes a third $2.50 fee)

Your bank is likely assessing a fee for your usage of an outside ATM.  So you pay $2.50 to your bank and $2.50 to thei ATM's owner. 

[Chimpy]

The big consumer credit card law that forced things like same day of the month bill due dates and how long will it take to pay off with minimums declarations also made it so you have to opt in to allow your debit card to go through if you have NSF.

I was getting about a dozen emails/letters a week from Chase about mine. I was like "hell yeah I want it to decline if I don't have the money!" when they were warning me with all the gloom and doom that "Your purchases might not go through!".

The way debitcards work with the system is all a bunch of wackiness. There are a number of bars here owned by the same guy that will put 2 separate $25 "pre-auths" on your card when you open a tab. With debit cards it acts like a transaction that is separate from your purchase and it takes like 3 days for those 2 blocks of 25 bucks to become "available" again.

[HaemishM]

The banks can't do this crazy shit to debit card purchases anymore (or at least, they can do a lot less). Some banks were making close to 30% of their profits off of these debit card fees alone. But, the banks have already tried to market their way out of this. My bank has been deluging me with this special "rewards" program on my debit - but it only works if you DON'T use your debit as a debit (with PIN number at the point of sale) but as a credit card instead. This is fucking evilly ingenious. Credit card transactions usually take 2 or 3 days to clear the bank, and can be reordered by the bank to their benefit because unlike debits, they aren't meant to go directly out of the account. So you can keep happily charging away without being denied even though your account would be drained with the purchases you've already made.

I fucking hate banks.

[Nebu]

I got charged $8 a month for not having activity with my savings account.  Time to find a new bank.  I only got the savings account to have more services with my checking account.  I'm sure someone else will be happy to have my money.  That or I'm going to start a barter system.

Anyone want a chicken in exchange for some Steam purchases? 

[Morat20]

Bank of America owns my mortgage -- and keeps trying to give me credit cards -- and is why I'm looking to refinance.

Among other things? My escrow account when like 9 dollars negative for two weeks. I wasn't short on escrow, I actually had a surplus at the end of the year they rolled over. Yet, to avoid the absolute fucking end of the world capitalistic HORROR of my account going 9 dollars into the red before my next mortgage payment comes in...

They jacked up my escrow. Despite rolling over money this year. And it gets better -- they jacked it up nine hundred fucking dollars a year. Yeah, I shit you not. Despite starting the year with a positive balance, having no changes in property tax and insurance fees, and only going 9 dollars in the hole because they paid out my yearly insurance a few weeks early.....

I am giving BoA a minimum of a 900 dollar, interest free loan.

How else can they maintain double-digit profits?

[WayAbvPar]

Why the fuck do people use banks any more? I understand that for certain business setups a credit union doesn't work, but for personal stuff? It boggles my mind that they volunteer for repeated sandpaper condom assfuckings.

[Nebu]

Why the fuck do people use banks any more? I understand that for certain business setups a credit union doesn't work, but for personal stuff? It boggles my mind that they volunteer for repeated sandpaper condom assfuckings.

What do you suggest when you live in a town with a crooked credit union?

[Salamok]

Why the fuck do people use banks any more? I understand that for certain business setups a credit union doesn't work, but for personal stuff? It boggles my mind that they volunteer for repeated sandpaper condom assfuckings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qttxEQikeu0

[Nerf]

The banks can't do this crazy shit to debit card purchases anymore (or at least, they can do a lot less). Some banks were making close to 30% of their profits off of these debit card fees alone. But, the banks have already tried to market their way out of this. My bank has been deluging me with this special "rewards" program on my debit - but it only works if you DON'T use your debit as a debit (with PIN number at the point of sale) but as a credit card instead. This is fucking evilly ingenious. Credit card transactions usually take 2 or 3 days to clear the bank, and can be reordered by the bank to their benefit because unlike debits, they aren't meant to go directly out of the account. So you can keep happily charging away without being denied even though your account would be drained with the purchases you've already made.

I fucking hate banks.

You can get fucked even harder if you use your pin and run it as debit though - you're not allowed to dispute those charges.  So if you buy something, put in your pin, it turns out to be defective/counterfeit/etc/etc and the company tells you to fuck off, you have absolutely zero recourse if you ran it as debit instead of credit.

[Nebu]

I usually just find a credit card with a good incentive plan (miles, 1% cash back, etc.) and use it like cash paying the balance monthly.

Now someone will tell me that's a bad idea too... 

[Lantyssa]

What do you suggest when you live in a town with a crooked credit union?

Use the credit union from a few towns over.

Direct deposit, snail mail checks, and ATMs will cover you.  My credit union is sixty miles away, but I will never give them up.  I've made it twenty years like this.  I didn't even have to visit them in person when I did my latest mortgage.  All handled over the phone and online.

[Rasix]

Heh, I've never had a problem with my bank.  Ever.

That being said, I don't keep my savings there (the interest is paltry), and I don't live on slim margins.  It's just for the checking account to pay bills.   

[Prospero]

I usually just find a credit card with a good incentive plan (miles, 1% cash back, etc.) and use it like cash paying the balance monthly.

Now someone will tell me that's a bad idea too... 

It actually hurts your credit score. I do the same thing and my recent credit report came back with a ding for having a largely monthly balance, even though I pay it off completely.

[shiznitz]

I just looked at a customer's bank statement and I still can't grasp the possibility of what the bank is doing being legal.

The customer had a balance of $12 in her account.
She had a couple products from us billing out of that account.
She called us to change cards, and one of the products was missed.
We billed her $23, putting her account to -$11.

The bank then charged her $37 for the overdraft, putting her account to -$48.
The bank then proceded to charge her $8 per day, including weekends as a daily overdraft fee.   

She brought it to our attention three weeks later, and we refunded the $23 and replaced it on her new card. Her bank is now telling her that that refund does not count as a "reversal" and instead is just a refund, therefore she owes them $200+, plus a further $8 per day.

(this is why we ask customers for Credit Cards rather than debit cards - apparently Americans don't use CCs any more though)

Debit Cards - a convenient way for your bank to ream out your ass if you ever screw up.

Was the account a free checking account?  Banks jacked fees in order to profitably offer free checking.  Is it better to pay $8 a month to have a checking account with low overdraft fees or have free checking and larger overdraft fees?  People that complain about overdraft fees are morons. Don't overdraft.  How hard is it to go to an ATM and check your balance?

The new consumer finance law limits what banks can charge for things like overdrafting. That means free checking for people with less than $1,000 monthly balances are going away.  Are people going to be better off as a result?  Reloadable debit cards charge overdraft fees and reload fees and ATM fees and inactive fees and annual fees and....you get the drift.

[HaemishM]

When banks are intentionally reordering the way charges hit the bank to ENSURE that you go overdraft on the maximum amount of transactions so that they can charge multiple overdraft fees instead of the 1 or 2 you might have had without their reordering, that's not a fair transaction, that's legalized fucking robbery. When banks market your debit card as being totally not something that can overdraft because "hey, it won't let you charge that thing if you don't have the money in your account" which is blatantly un-fucking-true, that's legalized fucking robbery. The only moronic behavior on the part of the consumer is believing that a bank is actually treating you honestly and fairly.

[LK]

I learned never to have close to a zero balance on my bank account and to always keep a nice buffer, because I've stumbled enough with the way the system works to get as much money out of me as possible. I still choke at the extra $5 I pay now to get money from another bank's ATM in addition to the fees the provider charges.

I think the bank is right to deter people abusing their system with fees, but there are things that go in the extreme other direction.

I also can't tell if the bank has been clear about what will happen with certain actions and people ignore that then complain when they rack it up. I am definitely willing to believe they would engage in obfuscation versus their clients to get as much money as they can out of them.

[Xuri]

Banking in North America is like, 40 years behind banking elsewhere in the world. And by "elsewhere in the world" I mean, of course, Norway. :P Nearly 4 months in Montreal now, and I still struggle to understand why exactly the banks here are allowed to operate as they do, and why people put up with it.

[Chimpy]

Because the U.S. government does not regulate shit with regards to the financial sector anymore, and what they do regulate is only to help the big guy take more from the little guy?

That being said, I was leery of Chase buying BankOne but I have actually been pretty happy with them overall. Of course, there is a Chase ATM in every Walgreens (6 of them in town) and there are 3 Chase branches in town with ATMs so I don't really use non-bank ATMs so I don't get the fees.

[Ingmar]

The WaMu-Chase transition kind of sucked for us, since WaMu never charged fees for using other people's ATMs at all.

[Selby]

Heh, I've never had a problem with my bank.  Ever.

I dumped Nations Bank\Bank of America and Wells Fargo over the shit they tried to pull with me.  I managed to switch to USAA and it's been the best thing that ever happened to me regarding banking.  Finding a good bank is difficult indeed.

[Merusk]

Don't use banks, use credit unions.   There's no profit motive AND they're covered by something like the FDIC for the same amounts.  If you have more than $250k in liquid assets.. why? What are you buying?

The reordering of transactions AND the "we'll let that $23 charge go through even though you have $11" are both supposed to have stopped with the bank reform bill.  However, if I recall that all isn't fully implemented until April 2011.  I can't find anything on it, but my google-fu is very weak tonight.

People that complain about overdraft fees are morons. Don't overdraft.  How hard is it to go to an ATM and check your balance?

Most people do.. that's where they get fucked.  Checking your ATM balance and going "Oh, I've got $50 still" is the easiest way of getting fucked there is.  I know, I lived through it in college and then my wife did the same damn thing.  It's not a true account if some merchant hasn't put the charge through yet.  Watch your bank account and you'll see some charges show up 3-4 days or even a week later.

The only way to keep an accurate account is to.. account for every transaction you do.  Be it a ledger, an excel spreadsheet or quicken.. don't do that shit in your head.  Yet many, many people do and then they get fucked because Burger King didn't put your $10 lunch transaction through until 2 days later, so you really only had $40, but charged $44.  Whoops, now you owe the bank $35 (or more).  Oh wait, here's a $3 POS transaction, too.  If you're lucky that's ONLY $35 more dollars, but if your bank is like 5/3 it's $70 because it's the 2nd overdraft in a 15 day period. Plus that $5/ day overdraft fee for them floating you a loan.    So that $47 you thought you spent is really somewhere near or over $100.

[SnakeCharmer]

Here's how you avoid getting fucked by the bank and save money in the process:

Carry cash.
Do not use automated payment plans.

At the beginning of the week, get out a set amount.  It's fine to bank online (as long as your utility companies, credit cards, etc don't charge you fees for banking online otherwise just write a paper check and mail the sumbitch the old fashioned way).  But automatic payment plans increase your chance for overdrafting your account.  Pay it when you know you have the money in your account.  

The key here is the psychological factor.  With a debit (or credit) card, you have no real concept of just how much money you're spending.  But if you're physically handing over money - actually seeing the twenties, fifties and hundreds leaving your hand - you're able to better process just how much you're spending.  You get a sense of buyers remorse before even leaving the story.  The banks prey on that.

Above all else, find a local (regional) type bank or a credit union and use them.  Make a point to go in one of the branches quite often and get known (as well as to get to know the manager, head teller, etc).  They are more likely to give you a break if you screw up if they know you and feel like they're your friend than just a customer (again, the psychological aspect comes into play).

[Abagadro]

I usually just find a credit card with a good incentive plan (miles, 1% cash back, etc.) and use it like cash paying the balance monthly.

That's what I do. I have auto-payment on pretty much everything to my card and don't use cash much. Once a month I pay it online out of my checking account. I snag hundreds of dollars a year using the credit card. I've thought about switching to an airline miles cards but the math hasn't worked out yet considering how often I travel (the upgrades would tip the balance but I don't fly enough).

[Selby]

...don't do that shit in your head.

I agree for people like my ex who can't keep track of things.  Me?  I personally mentally note everything I spend money on and have yet to overdraft in years.  Always have surpluses and never run dangerously close.  It really takes the right mindset to do that though and very few I find can.

[Samwise]

I just keep a cushion in my bank account that's in excess of anything I might conceivably spend money on.  As long as the cushion is staying constant or growing I don't worry too much about tracking what I spend, other than reviewing the statement at the end of the month to make sure there aren't any suspicious charges.

[Surlyboi]

If you have more than $250k in liquid assets.. why? What are you buying?