Germany Forces Welfare Women Into Prostitution

[SirBruce]

"A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

Bruce

[Tebonas]

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars.

They even thought about the problem beforehand, but couldn't care enough to do something against it. Now thats really lazy and just asking for problems.

[Jeff Kelly]

The linked article is wrong in so many ways that it's not even funny anymore.

To add some context to the discussion.

Germany has recently begun to make some changes to its welfare system. Germany faces an unemployment rate of about 10% (5,000,000 people unenployed) which is a huge strain on the welfare system and the state budget.

The unemployed are managed by the "Arbeitsagentur". This bureau manages the welfare budget, doles out the money and assigns new jobs to unemployed workers

Before the chages to welfare an unemployed person had the right to refuse a job if it was inappropriate, this means that  somebody with a university degree had the right to refuse a job where he would have had to work as a janitor or somethimng like that.

The logic behind this law, albeit flawed, was that if this person would have a hard time getting into his old industry if he had worked in such a lower class job for an extenden period of time.  "If you spend to much time flipping burgers no HR guy will give you another position in IT anymore"

With the recent changes you have one year of unemployment where you may look for another job and you get the full unemployment benefits. If, after that time, you still haven't found a new job then the state has the rigth to assign you to any job regardless of your qualifications.

So if you worked as an MBA and you still haven't found a job after 12 months then you will be assigned to your new position even if it means collecting trash, cleaning windows or delivering mail.

If you refuse then you will get less unemployment money and might eventually be transferred to social welfare programs where you will get less than your unemployment benefits.

Another change regards personal savings. If you have savings accounts, hold shares or you have some other kind of money than you are only eligible for welfare money if your personal savings do not exceed some limit (15.000 Euro at the moment). If you have more than that you will have to live off of this money before you can apply for welfare.

These changes led to quite an uproar.  Unions said that these changes would lead to some kind of forced labour, because refusing a job means cuts to welfare, that it will make people poor because poor old pop will have to spend all his livetimes savings before he can apply for welfare and so on.

So obviously there is quite a discussion going on at the moment with both sides fearmongering and  manipulating the public and a lot of propaganda going on for both sides of the discussion.

The linked article is such propaganda, launched by the biggest german union to discredit the welfare refom. The lawyer who was quoted in the article is working for one of the unions and of course in germany no one can be forced to work as a prostitute because it would constitute procuration which is illegal in germany.

Also the woman mentioned in the article didn't have to work as a prostitute, it was not even a brothel. It was a table dance bar which was looking for a bartender (And she wouldn't have to strip either, just pour drinks)

This was just some kind of union spin doctoring which made it to the frontpage of germans biggest tabloid and therefore got quoted by foreign media.

Since the welfare reform is one of the biggest changes to social security since the founding of Germany 1948 there is a lot of spin doctoring and propaganda going on on both sides of the fence.

I can paste some links if you want to but the respective articles are all in german I'm afraid.

Jeff

[Train Wreck]

Also the woman mentioned in the article didn't have to work as a prostitute, it was not even a brothel. It was a table dance bar which was looking for a bartender (And she wouldn't have to strip either, just pour drinks)

I can still see a woman rejecting this position for moral reasons.

[Mortriden]

Now that was informative.  Thank you.

[Calantus]

Also the woman mentioned in the article didn't have to work as a prostitute, it was not even a brothel. It was a table dance bar which was looking for a bartender (And she wouldn't have to strip either, just pour drinks)

I can still see a woman rejecting this position for moral reasons.

True, but then it moves from "they did WHAT?", to being debatable.

Personally I think this kind of reform was very long overdue as from the sounds of it the German system is just asking for abuse. Want to stay on unemployment for life? Get a degree in an oversupplied field and slack off for eternity. I also wonder if Germany has the same "baby boom" phenominem as we have where so many children were born after the war that the aged population is getting rather top-heavy and starting to put a drain on welfare funds.

[HaemishM]

Labor unions using propaganda? NAAAAAAAAAAWWWW! Say it ain't so!

The whole thing sounds dodgy and is absolutely hysterical. The whole "you will be forced to take this job" thing is even funnier. You won't actually be "forced" as in some cop will come along and make sure you go to your job waiting tables for prostitutes; it just means you won't get the government dole anymore. Booo-fucking-hoo.

I'm all for unemployment programs, and some forms of social welfare, because there are times when you really need it. But if you want to ignore a job offered even after you've determined there is nothing in your field available, you probably shouldn't expect to live off the government tit either.

[Tebonas]

I also wonder if Germany has the same "baby boom" phenominem as we have where so many children were born after the war that the aged population is getting rather top-heavy and starting to put a drain on welfare funds.

I thought all First World nations have that problem. Germany and Austria certainly do.

[Train Wreck]

Possibly, but they also had much higher casualties during the wars.

[Hanzii]

I can still see a woman rejecting this position for moral reasons.

Which she is still free to do - she just have to forego the higher benefit, which I find fair.

(our system is very similar)

[Train Wreck]

I can still see a woman rejecting this position for moral reasons.

Which she is still free to do - she just have to forego the higher benefit, which I find fair.

(our system is very similar)

I don't have any sympathy for her either -- not on the grounds of it being wrong to compel her to take such a job -- but that she's had a year to find one before it came to this.

[SirBruce]

No one is saying they're holding her at gunpoint to work in a strip bar.  The point is they're making her either work there, or they'll her her benefits.  If you think that's "okay", consider whether or not if it's okay for a boss to cut the salary of an woman employee who won't have sex with him.   He's not forcing her with a gun, he's not going to fire her... he's just going to cut her pay.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

And they aren't forcing her to have sex for money. As Jeff Kelly noted, they weren't forcing her to be a prostitute, as that is against the law as procuration. They just are going to pay her less benefits because she refused a job she had every right to refuse.

[SirBruce]

Too bad Jeff's articles are in German, so we can't confirm if it's true that women can't be given jobs in prostitution or face a cut in benefits.

Bruce

[Train Wreck]

How much effort did she put into finding a job for the past year, leading up to this?

[Mi_Tes]

At a year, I tend to believe it is a little too late to be picky.  And if they don't take whatever job is offered, they only have a cut in benefits (not even a complete cut of benefits).  Hell, if you can't find a job in a year, leach off someone besides the taxpayers.  

Sorry if I don't have any sympathy, I actually work.

[Jeff Kelly]

Too bad Jeff's articles are in German, so we can't confirm if it's true that women can't be given jobs in prostitution or face a cut in benefits.

Bruce

I will look it up tomorrow, maybe I can babelfish something for you.

But in hindsight technically it might someday be possible. Germany most propably will take the same stance on prostitution as the Netherlands which means that they will regard prostitution as a normal job with all the benefits and obligations of other jobs. Prostitutes would have to pay income taxes and would be eligible for social welfare. So if they actually made prostitution equal to other jobs then, according to the new welfare laws, you would lose welfare benefits if you'd refuse such a job.

Under german law there is no refusal on moral grounds. The german Bundesgerichtshof has ruled it that way. A muslim sued the employment agency because they transferred him to a job in an abbtoir where he had to slaughter pigs. He refused the job on behalf of his religion, which clearly marks pigs as unclean.

The court ruled against him clearly stating that such a refusal is not possible because it is a normal and accepted trade in germany to slaughter pigs. Stupid decision but since the Bundesgerichtshof is the highest instance in germany this ruling stands as long as the labour laws are not amended to allow the refusal.

Son while at the moment it is very clearly illegal it might in the future actually become legal to do so. Refusal would mean that there are cuts to welfare.

But this is typical german lawmaking. The necessary changes are postponed till kingdom come we get a law regulating mandatory deposits for cans and other beverage containers. Sometimes I just don't get my people.

The discussion regarding the welfare changes borderlines on hystery however with both the unions and the corporations bashing each other senseless and the tabloids heating up the fire.

Jeff

[SirBruce]

Well, it would be interesting to know just how much of a cut we are talking about here.

I totally understand how this can come about; nevertheless, it does make them look bad.

Bruce

[Shannow]

This was posted on metafilter already. One the paper that this story it comes from has its own agenda in regards to Britian and the EU and several ppl already gave the story its correct context. snore.