Apple announces Java to end on OSX

[Mrbloodworth]

Many seem to think this is minor news. But if Steve Jobs is booting Java from the Mac, he's also booting Java developers, including all those coders building apps for a certain Google mobile operating system.

On Wednesday, as Apple cult leader Steve Jobs unveiled a future Mac OS incarnation dubbed "Lion" and a new Mac App Store, the company released a Java update for Mac OS X 10.6 — and the release notes revealed that the platform isn't long for Jobs' world. "As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated," the notes read.

In an obviously related move, Jobs also banned Java apps from the upcoming Mac App Store. "Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected," the store's developer guidelines say.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_kill_java_on_the_mac/

[NiX]

I think Apple is just stopping THEIR version of Java. I just see this as Apple putting the burden back on Sun/Oracle to make an OSX version.

[Murgos]

I think Apple is just stopping THEIR version of Java. I just see this as Apple putting the burden back on Sun/Oracle to make an OSX version.

Pretty much.  You can't actually stop someone else making a virtual machine that runs on your OS if you have any kind of 'real' development API available at all.

Edit:  So, wikipedia says that with OSX Apple was merely porting Sun Hotspot JVM to OSX and not maintaining their own JVM.  So, yeah, they are basically telling Sun that they need to do their own ports.

Anyway, MS stopped supporting their proprietary JVM two years ago.  Java hasn't died on Windows by any stretch though.

[tgr]

MS hasn't said "Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected" though. To me that sounds roughly like the whole anti-flash wording, to the point that apps that use Java (and rosetta, whatever that is) will be rejected from the appstore. Not that you can't use it on a mac (yet), but you can possibly not buy it from the mac store.

Which I thought was one of the "main things" Jobs has been yammering about is one of their great features. The appstore that is. vOv

[Murgos]

MS hasn't said "Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected" though.

Rejected from what?  Being sold in MSs proprietary app store?  Where is that?  I haven't seen it.  So, yeah, I would imagine that if MS was selling apps on its MS branded store they wouldn't care to support apps written in 'deprecated or optionally installed technologies' either.

Heh, the thought of MS providing support for a Unix app running on Cygwin gave me a pretty good chuckle.

[raydeen]

This is a good thing. Apple's version of Java has always lagged behind. And if you want Java 1.6, you have to be running Snow Leopard (I could be wrong about that but so far I haven't been able to get 1.6 on Leopard) which pretty much leaves anyone still using PPC's out of the loop.

[tgr]

Rejected from what?  Being sold in MSs proprietary app store?  Where is that?  I haven't seen it.  So, yeah, I would imagine that if MS was selling apps on its MS branded store they wouldn't care to support apps written in 'deprecated or optionally installed technologies' either.

Heh, the thought of MS providing support for a Unix app running on Cygwin gave me a pretty good chuckle.

I'd say that's taking it a bit far, since I'd say "relying on java" is kind of like "relying on .net 4", since .net 4 isn't a mandatory part of windows 7, and it would be silly to say "no, I won't let you sell this application in this (imaginary, since it doesn't exist, but is here to prove a point) store until windows 8 is released, because we haven't made .net 4 a mandatory part of the OS until then".

I guess one reason for this is that they assume (rightly or not, I don't care) that users are stupid and wouldn't know how to go from "hm, this program won't start because it's missing java" to "maybe I need to find and install it then".

[Murgos]

But MS does support .NET 4.  If you have a real issue with .NET 4 they will fix it.  MS can't fix something with Cygwin and for the same reason why should Apple commit to fixing issues with a Sun/Oracle product they no longer port?

[tgr]

"deprecated or optionally installed".

Anyway, whatever.

[Lantyssa]

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

[Ingmar]

But MS does support .NET 4.  If you have a real issue with .NET 4 they will fix it.  MS can't fix something with Cygwin and for the same reason why should Apple commit to fixing issues with a Sun/Oracle product they no longer port?

What part of selling an app in their store commits them to fix it? Isn't that on the app developer anyway?

[NiX]

"deprecated or optionally installed".

Anyway, whatever.

Only through the store, which is more of a CYA in terms of people buying an app without acknowledging the requirements of running that app. This way the user has to buy or download the app from the source.

Like I said before, it's Apple shifting the burden of everything Java to Sun/Oracle for releasing it and supporting it. Does anyone remember how terrible JVM was on Windows? I could never get that thing to play nice with anything.

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

A MINECRAFT IS AT STEAK!

[Mrbloodworth]

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

Yes. Wurm and Minecraft are java based. For one :p

[Murgos]

What part of selling an app in their store commits them to fix it? Isn't that on the app developer anyway?

I'm not suggesting they would be liable for supporting the app just the environment it runs in.

You have a reasonable expectation that when you buy a product it installs and runs, yes?

[Ingmar]

I don't have an expectation that Microsoft should be held particularly responsible when Fallout 3 crashes on my PC, no, nor if Java is crashing, or my ATI-provided drivers are failing, or whatever.

[Lantyssa]

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

Yes. Wurm and Minecraft are java based. For one :p

So the three people affected can get PCs and run Windows or Linux.

[Murgos]

I don't have an expectation that Microsoft should be held particularly responsible when Fallout 3 crashes on my PC, no, nor if Java is crashing, or my ATI-provided drivers are failing, or whatever.

Microsoft didn't sell you Fallout 3 or Java or an ATI Video Card.

This conversation is getting retarded.

Edit:  Maybe they did sell you Fallout 3, I don't know.  But I never said they had to fix the developers bugs, I said they have to maintain the environment it runs in and provide support for issues that affect the environment.  Which they do.

[tgr]

I guess the crux of this is that Apple probably doesn't want people whining about "I bought minecraft through the appstore, but it doesn't start up, whyyyyyyy" instead of, y'know, telling them to download java and be done with it. Instead they make developers like Notch either write minecraft in ObjC or whatever language is available on OSX, or "fragment the market" by requiring people to go to third parties to buy software.

I don't really object all that much to Apple not maintaining Java (after all, it's precisely the same way on the PC), but I am objecting a bit to the thought of rejecting f.ex Minecraft from the mac appstore just because it depends on "optionally installed" packages such as Java. Of course they can probably just download java (...unless Steve decides to outright ban Java as well, like he banned Flash) and buy Minecraft from either a third party provider, or directly from Notch himself.

[NiX]

Considering the amount of java apps out there and how likely people who do download them, on purporse or by accident, will complain if they don't work, I'd say Apple is making the better decision.

I just don't see the issue. If someone wants the java app, they can go get it. Just won't be through the App store.

[Samwise]

I eagerly await the day when you need to jailbreak an iMac before you can run a Java app on it.   

[Sky]

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

Our catalog interface runs on Java on OSX.

[Prospero]

The Mac is like Windows now. News at 11. Seriously, as a person who has to deal with Java development on the Mac, this is a very good thing. Fuck the Apple jvm.

[naum]

Java sucks.

Next post.

[Lantyssa]

Does anyone actually care about what Apple supports beyond the iPhone?

Our catalog interface runs on Java on OSX.

You've already said libraries are dying...

[Chimpy]

The irony in this to me is that Apple made a huge effort at the original 10.0 release to make Java a core API language because it was still the trendy language to code in, and there was all this grumbling about people not wanting to learn ObjC.

Ten years later, this happens.