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Author Topic: Bench warrants, and how an Italian citizen got in trouble in the USA.  (Read 165730 times)
MahrinSkel
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Reply #140 on: November 04, 2010, 10:54:16 PM

If this warrant shows up on your record, I can promise that you will be denied at a port of entry on your next trip, or your visa application will be flat-out denied.
Pretty sure Italy is a visa waiver country, so it will be at point of entry.

--Dave

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Furiously
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Reply #141 on: November 05, 2010, 03:45:10 AM

That would be fun! Getting thrown into a Homeland security cell.

They might just save the taxpayers some money and throw you right back on the next flight home too with a nice "Don't EVER come back."

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #142 on: November 05, 2010, 04:38:58 AM

If this situation was reversed.  Say, an American was with someone in Italy who broke the law, despite having not personally broken the law, he fully co-operates with the police and gives his details.

Later through no fault of his own, he finds out after leaving the country that he's missed a summons to court and they have his sex wrong.

I really doubt that the advice given here would be to immediately hire an Italian lawyer to sort it out, I'd bet the US embassy/courthouse route would be explored first as he hadn't actually broken the law.
NowhereMan
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Reply #143 on: November 05, 2010, 04:48:09 AM

Only thing being he talked to Italian embassy who apparently weren't too concerned since he wasn't in the US anymore. They're job is to help Italian citizens abroad, he's no longer in any immediate danger or risk of bad stuff because he's back in Italy so I think they've got the same attitude Falconeer was expressing a little while ago of, "If you want to come back to the US later, sort it out then." If he was a UK citizen I'd say to get in touch with the Foreign Office or go to his local Citizen's Advice Bureau and find out who exactly he should be trying to talk to but I don't know enough about the Italian system to give him that direction. Also government run stuff in Italy has the reputation of pointless bureaucracy, without any immediate need to get stuff done I've no idea if they'd even take it that seriously while the Michigan legal advice thingy CmdrSlack will probably get some shit done for him quickly. At least they'll be able to give him a knowledgeable and probably accurate account of what trouble he may or may not be in, how likely he is to be able to deal with it and how best to go about it.

Also most of them wouldn't be recommending talking to an Italian lawyer because if it was an American in Italy who got into trouble they probably wouldn't be able to speak any Italian. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #144 on: November 05, 2010, 05:02:33 AM

People seem to be giving him a hard time because he hasn't decided to pay money to a US lawyer yet.  He's said he'll do that if it turns out to be needed, but there's a fair chance that once he makes them aware he has a penis, then he's in clear on the whole naked picture evidence thing.  I'm reasonably confident I could convince people I have a penis without having to hire a legal professional.
Falconeer
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Reply #145 on: November 05, 2010, 05:10:27 AM

Thank you Arthur.

Yes, as I said, I will definitely hire a lawyer when absolutely needed. But since my position has only been aggravated by a "failure to appear" which was totally beyond me, and I think I can prove that pretty easily by mail too (which is what the courthouse itself advised me to do), and I am not in immediate danger, I want to go the courthouse route first.

I am OK with some people giving me a hard time though, I wouldn't have posted on f13 if I wasn't expecting some of that. And it helps put things in perspective anyway. Everything here has been helpful and supportive in many ways so far.

Bzalthek
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Reply #146 on: November 05, 2010, 06:22:22 AM

If this situation was reversed.  Say, an American was with someone in Italy who broke the law, despite having not personally broken the law, he fully co-operates with the police and gives his details.

Later through no fault of his own, he finds out after leaving the country that he's missed a summons to court and they have his sex wrong.

I really doubt that the advice given here would be to immediately hire an Italian lawyer to sort it out, I'd bet the US embassy/courthouse route would be explored first as he hadn't actually broken the law.

That's besides the point.  The reason everyone is telling him to talk to a lawyer is because, as has been stated, the US Justice system is anything but just.  It's a corrupt fucking system.  It barely, maybe cares about Americans.  You're expecting a system to be rational when it's anything but.  Just look at the list of batshit insane people who won or almost won last election based on irrational fears and hate.  Shit got real when Jackson showed a god damn nipple plate at the superbowl.  Now we got some foreign terrist comin over, corruptin our youths, and exposing flesh in front of the childrunz!  He was probably some Al-Kaidah operative ring-leading the whole thing and would have turned that boy scout into a home-grown terristif he didn't run to the police like he did.  Fuck jail, we need to take that bastard out!

"Pity hurricanes aren't actually caused by gays; I would take a shot in the mouth right now if it meant wiping out these chucklefucks." ~WayAbvPar
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #147 on: November 05, 2010, 07:09:54 AM

You're right it is besides the point, I just thought it was interesting that if the roles were reversed, then it's possible that some people here wouldn't follow their own advice.  I wasn't trying to say you guys aren't special  why so serious?
KallDrexx
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Reply #148 on: November 05, 2010, 07:12:05 AM

People seem to be giving him a hard time because he hasn't decided to pay money to a US lawyer yet.  He's said he'll do that if it turns out to be needed, but there's a fair chance that once he makes them aware he has a penis, then he's in clear on the whole naked picture evidence thing.  I'm reasonably confident I could convince people I have a penis without having to hire a legal professional.

Here's the thing though.  If he decides to just take care of it when it becomes an issue, he could forget about this.  Then 20 years down the road when he decides to go to US for something he will arrive and get arrested, and it will be a real pain in the ass to deal with it then.  Lets just hope that the US trip wasn't for something important, like a job!
Morat20
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Reply #149 on: November 05, 2010, 07:12:58 AM

If this situation was reversed.  Say, an American was with someone in Italy who broke the law, despite having not personally broken the law, he fully co-operates with the police and gives his details.
He was told, early on, to contact his embarassy or the state consulate. I think someone actually gave him the number. They also advised him to get his own lawyer because he was relying on advice (passed through his non-lawyer friends) from his friends lawyer, who -- to be blunt on this -- obligations are to throw HIM under the bus to help his actual clients, if need be.

His friends lawyer is not his lawyer. His friends lawyer has no obligation to help him, and in fact might have an obligation to screw him. That's why he was told to get his own, rather than rely on his friend's.
Falconeer
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Reply #150 on: November 05, 2010, 07:17:30 AM

If he decides to just take care of it when it becomes an issue, he could forget about this.  

Uh? How could i forget this?

And Morat, I called the embassy, the police, the courthouse multiple times, and I wrote a letter to them. I AM doing all I can to take care of the thing. The only thing I didn't do yet is pay a lawyer, which, I understand, is the only thing I should do in your opinion. Noted.

KallDrexx
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Reply #151 on: November 05, 2010, 07:39:45 AM

Uh? How could i forget this?

Um, because you are human and probably won't be thinking about this at all in a few months.  It's not really that hard to realize that in 15-20 years, when you think of the US this won't immediately pop in your head when you haven't had to deal with it for 20 years.

Also what happens if you want to go to Canada or South America and your plane has a layover in the US? 
tgr
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Reply #152 on: November 05, 2010, 07:42:50 AM

You know, I would've assumed that italians would've prided themselves on being banned from a whole country for facilitating in making pictures with tits in them.

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Morat20
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Reply #153 on: November 05, 2010, 07:44:23 AM

And Morat, I called the embassy, the police, the courthouse multiple times, and I wrote a letter to them. I AM doing all I can to take care of the thing. The only thing I didn't do yet is pay a lawyer, which, I understand, is the only thing I should do in your opinion. Noted.
Hey, don't get pissy with me. I was responding to Arthur, who seemed under the impression you were just told "Get a lawyer, lolz" and nothing else, and was pointing out you were told to contact your own government first. The reason 'lawyer' kept coming up was because you were partially relying on advice your friends lawyer was supposedly given, which is a Bad Idea for a lot of reasons -- some which may or may not be obvious depending on how your country's legal system operates.

Sorry your embassy isn't helping you though, that's got to blow.

As to forgetting it: Dude, people forget they  have open warrents in other states all the time. Mostly because even if they remember  "Oh, last time I was in Mississippi, I got into that godawful bar fight and ended up in jail overnight. I wonder if not showing up to court was a good idea?" they're mostly likely to think "That was ten years ago, surely no one even remember."
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #154 on: November 05, 2010, 07:45:41 AM

I actually read the thread Morat20.
Cyrrex
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Reply #155 on: November 05, 2010, 07:52:54 AM

I enjoy the irony of all the advice espousing that he needs to hire a lawyer because our system is so unjust due to the fact that it is run by lawyers for lawyers.  Not that I necessarily I think it's bad advice, but it is kinda funny.

Also, most people will never have a warrant on them their entire lives.  Getting one isn't something you are going to forget, unless you are used to getting them all the time.  Some of you are being outright silly.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Falconeer
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Reply #156 on: November 05, 2010, 08:13:41 AM

And Morat, I called the embassy, the police, the courthouse multiple times, and I wrote a letter to them. I AM doing all I can to take care of the thing. The only thing I didn't do yet is pay a lawyer, which, I understand, is the only thing I should do in your opinion. Noted.
Hey, don't get pissy with me.

Apologies. I was absolutely not pissed, sorry if it came out like that. (EDIT: Ha! Maybe that's a cultural problem, and the best argument in favor of me needing an American lawyer: I wonder how what I wrote to the court will come out to them...) As I said, and I mean it, I am appreciating every single contribution to this thread.

About forgetting, that's just not possible. In Italy warrants are such a HUGE deal for anyone who isn't a politician or businessperson that I couldn't forget this in a million years, and my criminal record has been crystal clear for 36 years so far. There's nothing like "warrants in other states all the time". That sounds between hilarious and tragic to me.
By the way, about being admitted to the US in the future: the courthouse clerk on the phone said something about the fact that the arrest warrant to my name is only valid in a 22 miles radius from Ann Arbor. Does it make any sense?

Anyway, I am off to Paris today. I hope we won't have a layover in the US  awesome, for real and that boyscouts will leave me alone this time!

« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:44:10 AM by Falconeer »

Lantyssa
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Reply #157 on: November 05, 2010, 08:48:24 AM

People seem to be giving him a hard time because he hasn't decided to pay money to a US lawyer yet.  He's said he'll do that if it turns out to be needed, but there's a fair chance that once he makes them aware he has a penis, then he's in clear on the whole naked picture evidence thing.  I'm reasonably confident I could convince people I have a penis without having to hire a legal professional.
We're going to need notarized pictures.

I'm joking.  Really.  No pics, even fake ones, please.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Morat20
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Reply #158 on: November 05, 2010, 10:58:47 AM

Apologies. I was absolutely not pissed, sorry if it came out like that. (EDIT: Ha! Maybe that's a cultural problem, and the best argument in favor of me needing an American lawyer: I wonder how what I wrote to the court will come out to them...) As I said, and I mean it, I am appreciating every single contribution to this thread.

About forgetting, that's just not possible. In Italy warrants are such a HUGE deal for anyone who isn't a politician or businessperson that I couldn't forget this in a million years, and my criminal record has been crystal clear for 36 years so far. There's nothing like "warrants in other states all the time". That sounds between hilarious and tragic to me.
You guys probably have a more graduated system for warrants and the like. We really don't. If they want you in court, they tell you to show up. If you don't, they issue a warrant. Heck, don't pay a traffic ticket, they'll issue one. It's basically the courts way of saying "We need to talk to you" or "you owe us money" or "you have some business here".

I'm sure there's some method to how they enforce them. For traffic tickets, you generally just get a notice in the mail -- and if you're pulled over for anything, the cops will likely haul you down to jail and make you post bail, which I would imagine would get you to show up to court next time. For more serious crimes, they'll come to your house or workplace.

By the "only valid in the 22 mile radius" thing, that's basically saying the warrant has such a low priority that pretty much only the local cops will query that database -- they didn't pass it on to the state or federal law enforcement.

10 years ago, that would have been ignorable as long as you stayed out of the Ann Arbor area. THESE days, with no-fly lists and the FBI and TSA and everyone else hoovering up every database they can find, well -- you're running a real risk that you'll be changing flights on layover in New York, and your name come up with "Active Warrant in Michigan", and find your vacation plans abruptly over.
Chenghiz
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Reply #159 on: November 05, 2010, 11:45:36 AM

I used to work for a county deputy prosecutor and she got warrants issued for her arrest several times, accidentally.
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Reply #160 on: November 05, 2010, 02:57:41 PM

Reasons why a lawyer would be useful

1. Many give free consultations. These free consultations can often provide you with a wealth of information that will help you make an informed decision.
2. Communicating directly with the courthouse can bite you in the ass. If you inadvertently make an admission, or if you somehow prove up the guilt of someone who has lawyered up, you can expose yourself to serious hassle.
3. Saying that the system was created "by lawyers, for lawyers" is cute and all, but not the truth. It also doesn't vitiate the benefits of having an attorney at very least tell you if you need an attorney.

Once again, many lawyers will give you advice for free. If I had a) a Michigan law license and b) any experience in Michigan courts, I'd give you advice for free via PM. However, I have none of those things. This is why I provided you a link to a group that provides legal aid services (read as extremely cheap or free) that is located in the greater Ann Arbor area.

But yeah, seeing how things play out is ALWAYS a good idea when dealing with a time-sensitive field like the law. I'm sure that in all of my years of practicing, I've never, ever seen anyone who waited too long get fucked when early action (or even simply talking to a lawyer for an hour) could have solved the situation with minimal hassle, cost and drama. Absolutely never have I seen that happen. The first thing you learn in law school is that you should always advise people to behave like an ostrich. That way, you can bone them for increased fees when you have to pull off a Hail Mary to get their problem solved.

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Reply #161 on: November 05, 2010, 03:08:41 PM

Get a lawyer, you silly asshole.
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Reply #162 on: November 16, 2010, 02:35:21 PM

Thread reopened because somebody got a lawyer.
Lantyssa
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Reply #163 on: November 16, 2010, 03:05:39 PM

Good.  Hope it gets sorted quickly now.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #164 on: November 16, 2010, 03:43:16 PM

Good.  Hope it gets sorted quickly now.

Killjoy.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #165 on: November 16, 2010, 04:14:51 PM

Sorry, all my caring is now used up being so excited for Kate and Wills. My I wonder if their wedding will be as much of a fairytale as his parents'?

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Morat20
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Reply #166 on: November 16, 2010, 04:54:17 PM

Sorry, all my caring is now used up being so excited for Kate and Wills. My I wonder if their wedding will be as much of a fairytale as his parents'?
My caring has moved to the TSA. I'm rethinking a vacation, since I don't fancy the new security procedures.
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Reply #167 on: November 16, 2010, 06:11:12 PM

Today, I received a Warrant Notice at my house here in Roma. The address is still a bit crooked but it somehow worked. I am charged with Indecent Exposure, and then a bond of 1000$ has been set for Failure to Appear.

So, lawyer. She asked for a 750 U$D (reasonable?) check before she can do anything at all (and basically before letting me ask any more questions). She listened to my story but what she told me is that what she is gonna do is ask court for a new hearing so I can show up. Which is what I was trying to do myself through the mails and the calls to the courthouse.

Lawyer told me that no matter what, I have to show up. Once I finally meet the prosecutor/Judge, she says that two things can happen:

a) Judge decides that my involvement is minimal and basically discharges me. She says it would help if my friends already went to judgement and eventually testified that I was not "exposing" anything. Might be wise to set my date AFTER their cases are closed.
b) Judge decides even if wasn't doing anything, I am still part of the "plot", since I knew what was going on, I knew it was illegal and I didn't stop it, nor left. If that is the case, they could decide on a trial, which would be held two months later, at best.

If scenario b) happens, I am gonna stop caring, conscious of what it will imply, since there is no way in hell I would be able to fly to the US to show up again 2 months later, for money and family reasons. Going the first time and paying for the lawyer is gonna cripple my finances enough, put my job in danger for taking too many off days and leave my teenager messy son alone long enough. I simply can't afford a second trip. If it goes that way... I wasted lots of money and I am still a criminal, banned forever and who knows what else, basically for... not walking away when boobs appeared.

Lantyssa
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Reply #168 on: November 16, 2010, 07:15:59 PM

I don't know if the price is reasonable.  I paid about $1500, but my lawyer had to spend a lot of time tracking down my fingerprints with DPS, three times, and the day of court were there for five hours.  Also the cost of lunch at Burger King after it was over, but I offered since we were both starving and she had offered me a ride home.

There's got to be some way you can plea without having to worry about the expenses of returning to the States.  That's messed up.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #169 on: November 16, 2010, 07:27:30 PM

The retainer you pay up front isn't necessarily the amount you'll owe her after all is said and done.  My understanding is that if she ends up spending less than that amount on you (in terms of her billable time plus court fees plus whatever) you'll get a refund, and obviously if she ends up spending more then you'll get another bill.

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Merusk
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Reply #170 on: November 16, 2010, 08:01:43 PM

If scenario b) happens, I am gonna stop caring, conscious of what it will imply, since there is no way in hell I would be able to fly to the US to show up again 2 months later, for money and family reasons. Going the first time and paying for the lawyer is gonna cripple my finances enough, put my job in danger for taking too many off days and leave my teenager messy son alone long enough. I simply can't afford a second trip. If it goes that way... I wasted lots of money and I am still a criminal, banned forever and who knows what else, basically for... not walking away when boobs appeared.

Don't worry, the state will make sure you meet that appointment, Mr. Italian flight risk.  I'm sure they even have a nice cot for you to wait on. awesome, for real

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Reply #171 on: November 16, 2010, 09:58:54 PM

I don't know if the price is reasonable.  I paid about $1500, but my lawyer had to spend a lot of time tracking down my fingerprints with DPS, three times, and the day of court were there for five hours.  Also the cost of lunch at Burger King after it was over, but I offered since we were both starving and she had offered me a ride home.
Wait, you got arrested for exposing yourself too? awesome, for real
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Reply #172 on: November 16, 2010, 10:21:21 PM

I've been reticent to get into this, but I don't think you should ever be in a position to go to trial in this thing and it seems like the lawyer should be able to get this thing settled with the DA in advance of your appearance.  Just try to get a plea in abeyance to some lowered BS charge like disorderly conduct.  You basically plead guilty, pay a small fine and then your record is expunged after a while if you don't do anything else to get in trouble.  You should send the lawyer the retainer and then discus this possibility as it would mean a one-trip solution without any risk of the judge not just letting you off the hook (in my experience municipal judges basically never do this).

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

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Reply #173 on: November 16, 2010, 10:46:37 PM

Ab has spoken!

Now get to it you crazy idiot.

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Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #174 on: November 16, 2010, 10:48:08 PM

Um, lawyers go to court in place of their clients all the time.  I've known people that got a speeding ticket in another state resolved without ever seeing the courthouse OR the lawyer who got them off much lighter than they probably would have had they gone themselves.  Especially when their client is unable to attend due to being like, out of the country or something.  I don't know how it works, (I Am Not A Lawyer) but she should be able to talk to the prosecutor and iron things out, at least up to the point of the trial where you really really would have to show up or forget about coming to the US ever again.  You need someone in their face pointing out over and over that a) they screwed up with the summons and b) they got nothing on you and c) you are going to fight them with every possible legal tactic available, and hold their feet to the fire pouncing on any mistake THEY make so they better either drop it or be prepared to bring their top game because you wont let them steamroll you (like you have so far).  Phone calls and letters and faxes just don't cut it.  Face. To. Face.

That your government isn't going to bat for you is sad.  It happens to us sometimes too, and pisses me off to no end when I hear about it.  If it was me in trouble with the law in Italy you can bet your ass I'd have me a lawyer, and I'd have my Congressman breathing down the Consulate's neck to make sure I had the best support from them possible.  I saw what the Italian legal system did to Amanda Knox after totally botching their evidence collection!   ACK!

But seriously, your lawyer knows your story and is asking for money. It's time to determine what exactly she plans to do for you before you pay her.  Not all lawyers are worthy of their fees, and there are more lawyers looking for work these days than there is paying work to be done so you can keep going down the list till you find someone willing to actually fight for you.

Shit though, a warrant!  I wonder if your picture is gracing the wall of the Ann Arbor main Post Office now?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

As far as deal with it now or later, well, the sooner the better.  You already waited waaaay too long, but better now than next month/year/whatever!  Getting the lawyer on retainer doesn't mean you have to pay her for all the time between now and whenever it's resolved, just for the time she spends covering your ass between now and whenever it's resolved.  And that will be much less the faster she gets on the case and the less time that warrant has to percolate through the system, and the less water passes under the bridge and other people's story gets established as fact in the courts of law without your version being heard!  That warrant may only be visible within 22 miles of AA now, but what about next year when they integrate their system with the state system (or whatever) which may already be integrated with a national system? 

Although your case may be doomed from the start what with your pervy accomplices being such idiots as to confess to the cops right there in the woods!


Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
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