Warrior protest

[Pineapple]

I wonder how long it'll take them to actually "fix" this problem?

Ask EQ that same question. Paladins in EQ are arguably more desired as a tank except in the most extreme raids that require a jillion hitpoints on the main tank.

Maybe it is some inherant way that healers, tanks, DPS classes exist within a "medieval" RPG/MMOG.

Warriors since the first day of EQ and now into WOW have been somewhat gimpy, aside from their meatshield duties. However the benefits of being a meatshield are not as visibly gratifying as casting or high DPS. They are necessary, and yet people always feel they are gimped in these games.

They should take a look at City of Heroes, which has attempted to branch out from these traps in their class designs. Tanks in CoH feel more useful than just a meatshield, and maybe it is because of the "shiny" that is their flame auras or other fancy powers. Many of the classes in CoH feel more more fun to play, simply because they are a different way of presenting the same old classes to us.

Whatever is the solution, MMOGs need to take a serious look at finding one. Warriors bitch about being outdamaged, hybrid classes bitch about not being as needed in groups (a.k.a. holy trinity). This happens time after time, in game after game.

How about giving us a new set of classes, instead of copying the same classes (and thus the same problems) from previous games.

[stray]

How about giving us a new set of classes, instead of copying the same classes (and thus the same problems) from previous games.

I think I'll side with the resident UO fanboi and ask: How about no classes at all?

[Pineapple]

I think I'll side with the resident UO fanboi and ask: How about no classes at all?

There are problems with that method too. I remember the bitching about tank mages. However a non-level profession based method has been proven to be fun, so who knows.

Whatever happens in future games, they really need to look at recurring problems such as with warriors and the "holy trinity" barrier and come up with a solution.

[Morfiend]

Also, if you haven't got tactical mastery and aren't switching stances regularly for abilities you are holding yourself back.

My point.

[Jayce]

I think I'll side with the resident UO fanboi and ask: How about no classes at all?

There are problems with that method too.

/agree.

If there are no classes, people create them, because people crave categories.  UO has its tank mages and dex monkeys, AC1 has its archmages, Og mages, extreme melees, etc.

The bad part about that is that usually someone comes up with a template that hasn't been fully explored/balanced, and it owns the world for awhile until things are nerfed.  It also tends to gimp newbies and even vets who don't have time to catass boards looking for the most recent discovery as to what's teh leetest.

[Calantus]

Also, if you haven't got tactical mastery and aren't switching stances regularly for abilities you are holding yourself back.

My point.

Ya, just repeating it because Kageru mentioned he doesn't like switching it up because of rage loss and only misses hamstring. Plus you didn't mention tactical mastery. Without it a warrior probably would be better off in one stance.

I'd also like to add that I like the way taunt works in this game. It would be utterly boring alot of the time if a warrior could just hold aggro all the time. That goes for everyone: nukers, healers, and warriors themselves.

[Paelos]

People invest that much into a game they start to get a sense of entitlement, and thus the protests. They want to change something from the inside without cancelling the sub. I don't think it's out of line to think like that. Sure you can vote with your wallet when the GAME isn't fun, but if you think one aspect is broken that's not a reason to just bail on it as a whole.

[El Gallo]

However the benefits of being a meatshield are not as visibly gratifying as casting or high DPS.

Then roll one of the many other classes that casts or has high DPS.  There are more than enough people who enjoy being in the meatshield role.  I do.  And in WoW groups, the meatshield role is, if anything, too frenetic and engaging.  It's a lot of fun.  I hate the "everyone has to be dps because only dps is fun" mindset that is so prevalent on the official boards.  I don't know if it's a diablo thing or what, but without distinct group roles the game becomes trivially easy, because effective group interaction is the only remotely challenging thing in these games.

What they need to do is make the "meatshield" role more viable in PvP, and a bit more effecient when solo.  They don't need to convert us into anothet DPS class, there are already too many of those as it is.  

I think I'll side with the resident UO fanboi and ask: How about no classes at all?

Asheron's Call had fewer viable classes than Everquest did.  Skill systems lead to less character diversity, because balancing 1,000 possible skill combinations is many orders of magnitude more difficult than balancing 10 classes.

[sidereal]

PvP taunt/meatshield solution:

Maintain an aggro list for players as well.  Your highest aggro opponent is highlighted.  Attacking another player triggers a damage reduction proportional to the distance down your aggro list that player currently is.  

Too late for WoW 1, since it'd totally fuck up the PvP balance, but it'd solve a lot of problems with aggro management being a PvE-only mechanic.

[Calantus]

What they need to do is make the "meatshield" role more viable in PvP, and a bit more effecient when solo.  They don't need to convert us into anothet DPS class, there are already too many of those as it is.

They had the opportunity to do that with stances but shot them to hell by making them minor flavour changes. All they'd need is 2 stances that greatly modify damage and aggro. Want to solo, pvp, or the group already has a tank? Well you can do higher damage in this stance (not as much as dedicated DPS classes, but enough to get by) but draw little aggro. Wanna tank? Use the tanking stance and your DPS goes down as your aggro increases. You could also put all the aggro/tanking skills on aggro stance only, and vice-versa if you had a cooldown on stance changes. But oh well, opportunity lost.

[Sky]

Firstly, screw anyone who contributed to a server downtime by concentrated whining.

Secondly, if warriors suck, why play one? I started WoW with two characters, a warlock and a warrior. I ended up disliking both. I play a hunter now and I'm happy, though it wasn't my first choice, nor second.

I guess to be a real mmog player I should have stuck with my warrior and whined about how I was building my legacy and other stupid tripe like that. Instead, I just tried new classes until I found one I liked.

I even 'wasted' a couple weeks playing the first couple guys to 23/24.

Waiting five months in an MMOG is $75 and with the leveling curve, you'll probably max out even if your class is gimped.

And if you spend five months at $75 playing a character you don't enjoy playing, you deserve to lose every cent of it. I call it the "SWG Combat Revamp Rule". I'll be back when you fix it, and I won't pay for the time betwixt.

[HRose]

CANCEL YOUR FUCKING SUBSCRIPTION, ASSMONKEY.

Doesn't work.

You may cancel because you ran out of money, you don't have time to play, the graphic sucks, your computer exploded etc...

Canceling an account doesn't provide in any way a feedback.

Btw, I like my warrior and I was at the protest simply because I love that sort of stuff. I had a lot of fun before the server went down and many players on AD joined us in the tea party.

[sidereal]

Canceling an account doesn't provide in any way a feedback.

Every account cancellation form I've seen in the last 2+ years has had a feedback box.  I would be surprised if Blizzard's didn't.

I had a lot of fun before the server went down

Did the other people on the server have a lot of fun?

[stray]

Canceling an account doesn't provide in any way a feedback.

Every account cancellation form I've seen in the last 2+ years has had a feedback box.  I would be surprised if Blizzard's didn't.

They have one, but the word limit was very low, if I recall. Not enough to explain more than a generic complaint or two.

[HRose]

Did the other people on the server have a lot of fun?

Sure, what they didn't like was the lag. But the lag isn't required in a protest. It really was a gathering and I'm sorry it wasn't possible without being a bother.

So yes, we caused a (minimal) disservice. A moment in the history of the game where the servers already go down happily without the need of protests. I'm not happy that we caused lag but it wasn't also directly the purpose.

[Fabricated]

There's plenty wrong with the class and it does need attention.

I'm of the opinion that 90% of the problems with the class are due to the fact that almost every warrior in the game is too stupid to use defensive stance with a shield. I can't count the number of times some douche bag warrior has decided that he's going to 'tear shit up' and uses something like a 2h pole arm in beserker stance. Warriors need to realize what their job in groups is: To stand still and let shit hit them. They do pretty shitty dps even in the best of situations compared with pretty much any class in the game other than a pally or maybe a druid (havn't grouped with enough of these to really know). Now thats not to say they don't need some love. But they arn't even the worst class in the game.

I was wondering why I never see other warriors switching to one-handers and shields + defensive stance when in groups. It doesn't make any sense. Unless your two-hander does absolutely insane shit, your extra damage and lack of hate generation isn't going to help. The fragile classes are going to die, and then YOU are going to die because your stupid ass has no healing or backup.

Also: Am I the only person who thinks Slam is utterly, totally worthless?

[Triforcer]

Did the other people on the server have a lot of fun?

Sure, what they didn't like was the lag. But the lag isn't required in a protest. It really was a gathering and I'm sorry it wasn't possible without being a bother.

So yes, we caused a (minimal) disservice. A moment in the history of the game where the servers already go down happily without the need of protests. I'm not happy that we caused lag but it wasn't also directly the purpose.

Wouldn't it have been easier to write an oddly worded 150,000 word essay on the problem and post it here without paragraph breaks?  It's never failed you in the past.

[HRose]

Also: Am I the only person who thinks Slam is utterly, totally worthless?

I don't have in my bars both Slam and Heroic Strike. I really don't know their sense and I'm curious if someone else uses them.

[Calantus]

Also: Am I the only person who thinks Slam is utterly, totally worthless?

This is just complete hearsay as I haven't tried it myself nor seen it done, but apparently slam does have a use. From what I hear if timed well between swings of a really slow 2-hander it adds appreciably to DPS due to either avoiding the effect of its timer, or abusing how it resets the melee timer. I'm not completely sure on the details, but some swear by it so maybe there is some use for it if you make the conditons happen.

[Pineapple]

I don't have in my bars both Slam and Heroic Strike. I really don't know their sense and I'm curious if someone else uses them.

Doesnt slam disrupt a caster during a cast?

I dont know, but sounds like it might.

[Kageru]

The intent of slam makes sense. Take a massively damaging weapon with a 3-4 second swing and, with talents, turn it into a 1 second swing. A massive upgrade in DPS. However because it has a cast bar it only really works when you're not tanking, which is of couse the only reason warriors get group invites. Likewise because you're immobile during the cast it's limited in PvP too. So while nice in theory it simply doesn't have much of a role in practice.

You don't need to switch stances to do thunder clap when you're instance tanking. Demoralizing shout costs half the rage, generates more aggro and probably mitigates a lot more damage too thanks to its duration. It also doesn't have the 4 target limitation. Both are spammable.

I do have tactical mastery, but only as a pre-requisite to anger management (30% slower rage loss out of combat). The difference between an incoming 5 pull when you have half a tank of rage, as opposed to starting off cold, is just massive. And part of that involves not blowing rage (by stance dancing) before you suddenly discover you need it.

The essence is pretty clear to me, as to others in this thread. The first is that attempting to balance PvE and PvP in a single rule-set has never worked. The second is that the rage mechanic is balanced to be a limitation (so that a warrior has modes) in PvE. It's too slow and too limiting when fighting a human opponent. And yes, mortal strike needs to be a baseline ability. Paying 31 talent points so you can finally get an ability to turn rage into damage (heroic strike is awful) is a design flaw. I believe in beta it was 11 points deep in the arms tree, a much more reasonable position.

However the pain has barely started. I fully expect battlefields to end up being a "skirmish line" as rogues  try to flank and the ranged classes duck in and out of firing range. A warrior attempting to cross that line, to engage in melee, can expect to meet such a volume of focused fire, movement inhibiting effects and crowd control that any HP or AC advantage will mean only a couple of seconds life. And his chosen target can mitigate much of a warriors threat through using the tactic called "run and dodge". Of course this doesn't show up in duels.

[Calantus]

Demo shout and thunderclap stack, spamming demo shout only resets the timer. Also, initial rage is little issue with imp charge + blood rage. But I can see your method as a valid one to take if it's your preference, so shall we call it difference of oppinion?

As for the skirmish line effect, that happens to some extent already during the Hillsbrad shuffle that constitutes the closest thing to battlegrounds WoW has right now. On the other hand, co-ordinated charges offset this by a large degree (though it seems the purpose of the charges is to get mages into IAE range, but I digress), so as long as you are with guildies/friends you wont have too much of a problem. Joining up at random will quite possibly suck though. The best hope is that the quests Blizz says they'll include provide people enough incentive not to just setup skirmish lines and stare at the enemy.

EDIT: One more thing, a 1 sec timer is CAKE to fit between most mob's attacks if you've been a caster any length of time. And caster mobs wouldn't be the slightest challenge to time. Useless when multi-tanking of course, but might still have a use as a soloist or an offtank.

[Glazius]

They should take a look at City of Heroes, which has attempted to branch out from these traps in their class designs. Tanks in CoH feel more useful than just a meatshield, and maybe it is because of the "shiny" that is their flame auras or other fancy powers.

Or maybe it's because they're more useful as a meatshield?

So I'm in the reactor and we get pincered between two mobs of Freakshow. TPW except for my flame tank.

I drop the new auto-hit area taunt, run away from the reactor, turn on Tough and Blazing Aura and just kinda stand there as about a dozen boss-class mobs pound on me with hammers and sickles. Everyone else staggers to their feet, runs out to get radiation shielding, runs back in and polishes off the bosses.

90% resistance to damage and/or a significant dodge rate means your average tank can hold up under a massive assault without breaking down.  Toss in the instant-effect defense buff and healing inspirations and you can hold the line while everybody else gets up and shakes off resurrection stun.

My experience has been that the healer/tank/mage "holy trinity" does tend to assert itself when dealing with archvillains and/or giant monsters. But when fighting everything else, the tank might need some buffs, but not the constant attention of a healer. The healer takes care of everybody _else_, because grabbing aggro off of an incoming horde is not an instant thing, and given that a lot of mobs have AoE or cone attacks, even if something's attacking the tank it can splash onto everybody else.

--GF

[HaemishM]

Brucing time.

CANCEL YOUR FUCKING SUBSCRIPTION, ASSMONKEY.

Doesn't work.

It's a much more effective message than crashing a fucking server because your mommy didn't hug you enough, you jackass.

You may cancel because you ran out of money, you don't have time to play, the graphic sucks, your computer exploded etc...

Canceling an account doesn't provide in any way a feedback.

Yes, it does. It says, "Your product is unsatisfactory. It is not worth my money or my time." There is no more effective statement than taking money out of the hands of greedy assmuncher developers who release games they KNOW are being released too early.

Btw, I like my warrior and I was at the protest simply because I love that sort of stuff. I had a lot of fun before the server went down and many players on AD joined us in the tea party.

You love griefing the fuck out of 1800 other people who pay the same amount of money as you to enjoy the game. You love causing service disruptions just because you didn't get enough developer attention to feed your inferiority complex. Got it. Just wanted to make sure we were clear.

You like being a griefer on a MASS level, with all the other attention whores.

You are not a special, unique snowflake. Your ideas about game balance DO NOT MATTER TO ANYONE BUT YOURSELF. Just like my ideas don't matter shit to anyone else. But I only inflict them on this "community," which can choose to read them or not. You decide your ideas must be inflicted upon paying customers.

You are a cockgobbler.

[Dren]

First off, I do not agree with crashing the server.  I do not agree that stopping other people's playtime is worth the attention you got.  It isn't "right."

However, I am not so sure quitting will send the correct message either.  I used to be of that camp thinking that is really the only way to make these companies think.  You have to hit them in the wallet right?

Well, that certainly does send "A" message, but I'm not sure it is focused enough.  I mean if you are really disgusted with the game, then you will quit regardless.  You probably won't be back either, no matter how many improvements are put in afterward.  Even if you do come back it will be with a totally different attitude which will limit you to a few more months before you quit again IMO.  

I think there is a big difference between coming into a game fresh with a "Hey let's see what's in this game" as compared to a "What have you done for me lately" attitude.  Once the first feeling has gone, you just don't ever get it back with the same game.

I think we all know this deep down and try to hold onto that feeling for as long as we can.  Thus, we try to improve the game by putting in suggestions or brainstorming ideas with other gamers, etc.  We do this until we just can't stand it anymore and up and quit.

Now, once we do quit along with several others, the suits take a look at the numbers and try to figure out what is happening.  From that point, they make big decisions like staffing of development vs. art vs. bug fixes vs. marketing push vs. .....you get the idea.  

Basically, the minor little content or gameplay issues get buried at that point.  You don't really care anymore and the suits don't either.  They just want to get some money back.  For some games that has been, "keep things as they are and just raise the price" ( a la UO.)  For others, this has been, "completely change the direction of the grouping system and make it more solo'able" (a la EQ2.)

Little issues like Rage production from a warrior to make them a viable solo'er or group component just get lost in the wash.

My advice is to just keep using the forums and other communication options.  Eventually they will fix your issue.  It just won't ever be on your timetable.

[Sky]

There is no more effective statement than taking money out of the hands of greedy assmuncher developers who release games they KNOW are being released too early.

You don't really care anymore and the suits don't either. They just want to get some money back.

Heh.

[HaemishM]

Official forums are a worthless wasteland of stupidity that sucks developer resources, developer bandwidth and developer money and will NEVER produce anything worthwhile. They are full of self-important, attention-whoring little twats like Hrose who all think their ideas are better than anything else the developers can come up with. They provide an easy means to gathering more self-important twats together to do things like this stupid protest, which ends up costing the developers MORE money.

Developer-community feedback is best accomplished by the developers hand-picking people out of the beta community and other prominent players, listening to their feedback, and then disregarding the stuff that makes no sense. You do that away from the frothing masses. Giving the frothing masses a voice just makes them overestimate their importance.

The importance of the frothing masses? $14.95/month. The masses are entirely too easily led. And as I always say, in the abscence of true leadership, the masses will follow whoever has the loudest voice.

[Paelos]

Developer-community feedback is best accomplished by the developers hand-picking people out of the beta community and other prominent players, listening to their feedback, and then disregarding the stuff that makes no sense. You do that away from the frothing masses. Giving the frothing masses a voice just makes them overestimate their importance.

Isn't this sort of giving in to the might of the uberguilds? If not, what are your standards for selecting "prominent" players. I would think the players best known in the game would be the biggest catasses burning through the stuff the fastest. That doesn't really represent how the casual player thinks the game could change. Nor does it really represent how the class corrections either.

[HaemishM]

I hate the uberguilds with a passion. But they DO know class balance issues. They DO know how shit works. And they are rabid enough to catass the fuck out of your game through multiple characters, no matter how boring the grind.

They shouldn't be your only resource. But you will NOT find casual gamers on the official forums either. Most stats I've heard about forum use is that about 1% of all players of any MMOG will post on a message board about the game. Which means the casual player isn't being heard AT ALL. They float in and out of games without ever giving their opinions. Chances are, you could pick 20 random people who don't post on the game's boards and get all the casual player input you'd ever need.

You have to design for the casual player from the get-go if you give a shit about them. Trying to retrofit casual player interests into a game is just as bad as trying to shoehorn open PVP into areas where people actively camp for experience.

[Rasix]

Just an aside, somewhat topical..

I grouped with a warrior that throughout BRD used only his massive axe.  I'm not sure he was switching stances or anything, but he kept aggro pretty decently.  However, the mobs tore through him quicker than if I was main tanking.  Having 5 mobs hit you all at once while you wack away without an additional nearly 2000 armor just seems assinine.

Twice near the end, we wiped. One I had an ankh and saved use losing all of our progress.  We wiped again probably 10 pulls later to the same type of group.  The priest was off by just a second on healing his ass which was being torn to shreds.  Once the warrior goes, a the remaining shaman, hunter, priest and druid don't stand a chance of holding up.  

I'm not really liking so far how the end game instances are holding up.  Throwing 5+ elites at a group everytime just seems assholish.  I don't want every fight to be a five minute ordeal that's on a razor's edge of wiping.  I want something you don't need an optimal group of 5 for.  So far that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

I didn't want to tell the guy how to play his class, but I'm not sure people are understanding that what worked for 55 levels isn't really going to fly for the last 5.

[HRose]

They shouldn't be your only resource. But you will NOT find casual gamers on the official forums either. Most stats I've heard about forum use is that about 1% of all players of any MMOG will post on a message board about the game.

And hand-picking players to hear is what? 0.001 of all player?

A private-only invite-only board is what 0.01?

The fact that on a forum you can only read from a small sample of the whole community doesn't mean that this sample isn't representative.

Also, it will ALWAYS be more representative than a place that is directly selected or piloted 'surveys'.

[HaemishM]

Actually, the forum being representative or not means jack and shit, since it will be filled with such a whining, bilious stream of verbal diarreha that nothing interesting or useful will ever get any attention.

You don't make a goddamn MMOG to be some automagical perfectly democratic socialist dream that pleases everyone. You make one to make fucking money. Good gameplay is job #2 to the job #1 of making a profit. Adding three bazillion whiny cooks into the development kitchen does nothing but ensure you'll be spinning your circles endlessly on the whine of the week without ever adding something NEW to the game.

[Fargull]

Hmm..

I am kinda scratching my head over the whole warrior issues thing.  I really don't have an issue with my warrior, who just turned 45th level a few days ago.  I am on a PvP server and for the most part am predominantly spec'd in defence... 28 pts worth.  I have went up the arms tree and have gotten up the ability to swap stances with 15 rage.. which is all I need currently.  I will admit that the class is a challenge and some I have some issues with PvP, though most of that just revolves around the rock/paper/sicsors aspect and even then the group I am with has worked out some interesting tactics to compensate.

Different situations call for different weapon selections, combinations, and such.  For any instance run (unless as a group we are hitting an instance 4+ levels below us), I will only use sword and board.  I have zero issues soloing.  I have no issue taking two 43's at the same time.  If I can pick and choose the elite mob, I can take one equal level with just a healing potion to fall back on in case I get some bad misses.

I never played the main tank roll before and learning to control aggro was and can still be a challenge sometimes (mainly caused by other players getting cocky now instead of any miss-shot on my part), I in no way feel that I am underpowered.

As for the comment at the line issue for PvP, I agree.  To be honest though, that will always be the case if you have melee and ranged damage dealers.  What I would like to see, and would fix this issue as a standout would be to allow warriors to Auto-shoot the way hunters do, have it break on move (which is not the case for hunters), but at least provide the option to auto shoot for warriors instead of constant button mashing.

Webster, 45th Troll warrior, Spinebreaker

[Rasix]

I'm loggin on to Spinebreaker and petitioning your name.  Dictionaries are offensive to me.

[HRose]

You don't make a goddamn MMOG to be some automagical perfectly democratic socialist dream that pleases everyone. You make one to make fucking money. Good gameplay is job #2 to the job #1 of making a profit. Adding three bazillion whiny cooks into the development kitchen does nothing but ensure you'll be spinning your circles endlessly on the whine of the week without ever adding something NEW to the game.

For sure I do not believe in democracy. It the fastest way to trivialize and stupidify everything, like what is happening for the television.

But my idea is about what I'd do myself. If I was a developer I wouldn't close myself in a room working on my own ideas full time. Instead I'd try to continue being passionate, discuss my opinions, throw tests at the players to see as they react, consider the critics and all the rest.

At the end this doesn't mean that the game is run by democracy, it just means that I believe that 'my' work would be good only if I'm able to draw from the vitality of the community.