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Author Topic: Paladin Help  (Read 29544 times)
Morat20
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on: October 04, 2010, 09:25:26 AM

Since I started playing WoW again, one of the little side-benefits is a growing collection of useless emblems, which I'm turning into useful BoA stuff. I realize all the 1 to 80 stuff will be replaced by 1-85 stuff in Cata, but to be honest -- I have the badges NOW and aside from a mage and a Death Knight, all my alts are in the high teens, low twenties. By the time they hit 81, I'll be able to get them 1 to 85 BoA gear if I want.

So having first outfitted my mage (who was in her 40s) and gotten her to Outland, I was doing my Paladin next -- kinda thinking I wanted to learn to tank a bit. So I have the plate chest and shoulders (the str/stamina stuff) and paired it with a Crusder-enchanted +spellpower 1h mace, figuring that's a pretty good mix, since if I want to play tank the shield seems important.

So I dig out my 19 paladin, throw the gear on, curse briefly that it's 19 and not 20 so I can't get a mount yet, and then train up a bunch of spells I mysteriously don't have. (I haven't touched the pally for so long it's probably from an old revamp. Or maybe I didn't have the money. Anyways).

And now I have a bewildering array of blessings, seals, auras, judgements, and other 'crap' that I can't figure out how to even organize, much less use effectively. I can only thank God that it's only level 19, and I'm not stuck with a level 40 or so and have even more crap I don't remember.

So any basic advice? What to use with what? What the hell a 'judgement' is and why it's related to seals?
Shrike
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Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 09:46:47 AM

Helps when you read completely. Edited to say lose the spellpower 1hander and get a nice slow damage one. You might be best farming the AH for blues early on and ignore BoA 1handers. The thrash blade BoA is good, though, if you don't want to spend gold. Until you get true tanking 1handers, run the big damage--and always in PvP. Really, weapon enchants don't really mean all that much to protection, but I'd run crusader like everything else. It boosts damage--both physical and holy--and block rating. It also heals you quite a bit at lower levels. Past 60, well, by then you should be able to figure out what's good and what isn't so good. When you can run real enchants get mongoose or accuracy, depending on what you need (I actually run lifeward, but this is on a dedicated heroic protectadin built entirely around block value--I don't trust PuG healers and with good reason).

Since you're starting out there only one imbue (shaman talking here...) worth anything and that's Seal of Command. If you don't want to go ret early on, then just run Seal of Righteousness and don't look back (at least not until you hit the ret tree--then get SoC). Auras are a bit of a judgement call, but I run ret when grinding or in PvP, and the armor one when grouped. Judgements, again, they're kinda situational, but judgement of light is my default. I'll run judgement of wisdom if low on mana. For PvP, it's all about judgement of justice. Can't have rogues running away from you after all. Essentially all a judgement does is nuke whatever has a seal on it and apply an effect. Light is a heal, wisdom is mana recovery, and justice is a snare (or root in PvE, sorta--keeps shit from running). Blessing should ALWAYS be sanctuary--when you get it. Otherwise, King's.

Your rotation is the 969 thing, but you'll find lots of stuff won't live long and you won't have that many abilities early on. Essentially, it's keep your HS (when you get it) up, and keep your target judged. Stuns and consecrate are there when needed. Mana recovery is always going to be an issue, but it goes up and down as you level. Killing groups is where it's out for efficiency. Ride around on your mount, gather stuff up, kill the hell out of it when you get knocked off or feel you're pushing your luck.

 

« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:51:36 AM by Shrike »
Ingmar
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Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 11:05:50 AM

Also don't get too used to any of that because it is changing again in a couple months. Bye bye 9 6 9.

The one big thing is, spellpower mace = healing paladins only. Tanking paladins use regular weapons now. You will really be holding yourself back if you try to use that, people will drop group as soon as they see it (hell I would drop group and usually I will give just about anyone a chance) etc. etc.

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Morat20
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Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 11:32:34 AM

Also don't get too used to any of that because it is changing again in a couple months. Bye bye 9 6 9.

The one big thing is, spellpower mace = healing paladins only. Tanking paladins use regular weapons now. You will really be holding yourself back if you try to use that, people will drop group as soon as they see it (hell I would drop group and usually I will give just about anyone a chance) etc. etc.
That's the other thing. I keep going back and forth on whether I want to tank or not. *shrug*. I can always send it to my shaman, who I am planning to make a healer.
Morfiend
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Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 11:52:07 AM

There are two semi obscure mods that I find really help on my paladin.

Seal Bar, its old, and no one updates it any more, but I think thats the version that still works. Although I doubt it will next patch. Anyway, that just puts a stance like bar for your Seals.

The one is great. Although I usually turn off everything except the buffing wheel. I just dont need a million buffs on my bars, and Pally Power is hard to adjust on the fly.
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Sjofn
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Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 11:56:36 AM

Also don't get too used to any of that because it is changing again in a couple months. Bye bye 9 6 9.

The one big thing is, spellpower mace = healing paladins only. Tanking paladins use regular weapons now. You will really be holding yourself back if you try to use that, people will drop group as soon as they see it (hell I would drop group and usually I will give just about anyone a chance) etc. etc.
That's the other thing. I keep going back and forth on whether I want to tank or not. *shrug*. I can always send it to my shaman, who I am planning to make a healer.

Protection is more fun to level with than holy either way. If you Reject tanking, you should level as ret. This may also change in Cataclysm, but as it stands right now, unless you plan on living inside instances only and doing NOTHING ELSE EVER, holy is excruciatingly boring.

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Morat20
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Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 11:59:12 AM

So, to wit:

Replace the 1handed heirloom with something else (what am I looking for, in terms of stats? +str, +stam? I guess tanking paladins don't really need much +spellpower, +int, and +mp5. But "bigger hits" (thus, slower weapon) is what I'm aiming for). Crusader or Fiery is probably an okay enchant, still.

Spec wise, should I be looking at Prot talent spec, right? Any "must have" talents? I know I'm only 19, but the paladin mechanics are a bit confusing after letting this one lie fallow so long. Also, I'm a blacksmith on that one -- don't know what's helpful there in the higher levels.

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Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 12:00:10 PM

Keep in mind, a lot of what Shrike says is going to change next patch, ether tomorrow (unlikely) or the 12th (very likely). Seals are changing, Judgements are changing, some auras are changing, and Paladins are getting combo points.
Ingmar
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Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 12:04:13 PM

I would recommend just using http://www.wowhead.com/item=48716/venerable-mass-of-mcgowan for leveling tanking stuff assuming you have the spare badges. Paladins benefit from using a slow weapon at least right now, and there isn't anything much out there as far as tanking weapons for leveling characters.

I have a personal bias towards using dps weapons for tanking though, some people will argue you pick survivability over all else at all times. (Which I would agree with most of the time, but I like to dedicate that one gear slot towards improved dps/threat. A few hundred extra dps matters no matter where in the raid it comes from.)

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ironwood
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Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 12:05:47 PM

That's what I used on my paladin.  Don't take reckoning with it.  Waste of fucking time.

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Sjofn
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Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 12:06:50 PM

Yeah, you might just want to let the paladin lie around until the patch happens and people figure the new way out.  Ohhhhh, I see.

But for the 1h weapon, str/sta would be what you'd like, although I think the thrash blade only has sta, but it's still going to be pretty good for your purposes. Although you never have Wintergrasp, right? So you probably aren't going to buy that anyway.

Babblebabblebabble.

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Soulflame
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Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 12:10:26 PM

Yeah, because I was thinking that's what I needed on my paladin.  Combo points.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Sjofn
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Reply #12 on: October 04, 2010, 12:21:07 PM

I am ALL FOR the combo points, personally.

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Dren
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Reply #13 on: October 04, 2010, 12:36:56 PM

I know nothing about the expansion changes, so all of my comments are for current.

Healing:  So many other classes do it, I stopped working on gear for healing on my pally.
Ret:  All around good spec to use for levelling and eventually dailies, etc.  Strength is what you gem then there are different schools on expertise/armor pen/ crit, but mostly just get STR.
Tank:  Extremely easy tank class.  Great for getting fast queues into dungeons to get pretty much any set of gear you want.  Gem Def until you hit 540 (uncrushable) and then stack Stam.  Realistically, once you have your 540, you can start replacing gear/weapons to boost your damage as appropriate.  Watch your hps though.  For heroics you'll probably want to be 30k or higher.

I personally have different sets ready for tanking. 
1.  All out highest avoidance, mitigation, hps, etc.  Usually start here to determine what the group make-up is.
2.  High def/hps/avoidance but with a dps weapon.   Cases where the healers is struggling, but I'm also having trouble keeping agro off that 10k dps DK.
3.  Balanced set.  540 def, 30k+ hps and all the rest towards dps.  Healing is good enough to keep me up, but higher dps helps drop MOBs faster to get through the instances quicker.

You can do that with a Ret/Prot dual talent tree because the gear can be mixed and matched.  Holy set?  Not so much.

Cata will probably be out before you get to the gemiming and heroic bit.  I suggest just going Ret and blow through everything with strength and crit.  Level as fast as you can.  It is pretty easy mode.
Ingmar
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Reply #14 on: October 04, 2010, 12:39:34 PM

Hell right now the talk is Oct. 12 for the 4.0.1 patch to hit live, where we get all the new mechanics and crap. I would probably wait for that before I put any kind of real effort into a new character since it just means relearning everything anyway.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Dren
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Reply #15 on: October 04, 2010, 12:40:47 PM

Hell right now the talk is Oct. 12 for the 4.0.1 patch to hit live, where we get all the new mechanics and crap. I would probably wait for that before I put any kind of real effort into a new character since it just means relearning everything anyway.

 ACK!

Guess I should start seriously looking at the changes...
Morfiend
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Reply #16 on: October 04, 2010, 12:53:33 PM

Hell right now the talk is Oct. 12 for the 4.0.1 patch to hit live, where we get all the new mechanics and crap. I would probably wait for that before I put any kind of real effort into a new character since it just means relearning everything anyway.

 ACK!

Guess I should start seriously looking at the changes...

Yes, you should.
Ingmar
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Reply #17 on: October 04, 2010, 01:01:34 PM

Keep in mind that is just a rumored date but it seems pretty plausible. The last PTR patch was very minor and is labeled "Release".

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Morat20
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Reply #18 on: October 04, 2010, 01:09:19 PM

Dammit. I'm going to be busy relearning my hunter.

Oh well, at least the bulk of my gear is "obvious Hunter stuff" if not outright badge equipment. Hopefully whatever the fuck my new stat allotment needs to be under the "focus system" won't have me too badly misgeared.

I don't like the whole 'mana for hunters' system, but I like learning an entirely new system with gear that may or may not be adequate even less.
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Reply #19 on: October 04, 2010, 01:12:08 PM

Eh, the only difference is you won't need int, and if your grown up hunter has hunter set shit on, that's all going to be rejiggered to reflect that.

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Morat20
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Reply #20 on: October 04, 2010, 01:18:28 PM

Eh, the only difference is you won't need int, and if your grown up hunter has hunter set shit on, that's all going to be rejiggered to reflect that.
It's either direct Hunter set gear (Triumph or Frost badge stuff), direct hunter rewards (Ashen Verdict Ring), or stuff that is OBVIOUSLY hunter itemized -- mail with +agility, +AP, +int on it. You know, not the sort of thing Shamans are accidentally going to put on.

The only ones I'm worried about are my weapons -- they're just stat sticks for Hunters, so I've got an ICC axe (drops off the blood beast guy, I think) and Liar's Tongue. Those aren't hunter specific, but without checking more closely into the hunter changes I'm going to guess +agilily, +AP, +hit and all that will still be important stuff.
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Reply #21 on: October 04, 2010, 01:20:52 PM

Enhance shaman/hunter itemization is actually exactly the same now (and will be after the expansion as well). So, all the +int is going to come off of that gear and turn into something else (not sure what, I haven't been paying attention to the gear revamps much.)

Any 2h weapon that is AP/agi/etc is going to stay roughly the same, as those are already itemized with hunters (and sometimes feral druids) in mind. AP is going away too but will turn into agility probably on weapons like that.

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Morat20
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Reply #22 on: October 04, 2010, 01:29:58 PM

What, are enhancement shamans going to stop using mana in Cataclysm? How are they going to itemize the same if shamans are still casters?
Morfiend
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Reply #23 on: October 04, 2010, 01:47:25 PM

What, are enhancement shamans going to stop using mana in Cataclysm? How are they going to itemize the same if shamans are still casters?

I think they are receiving spellpower from attack power like Ret pallies.
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Reply #24 on: October 04, 2010, 01:57:38 PM

They're not "casters" really. They don't use caster gear now and never have (enhance spec that is). They are still going to be using mana, but their mechanics don't require them to increase the size of their mana pool at all, so +int isn't useful. Much like ret pallies that way.

EDIT:

Quote
Your melee attacks have a 40% chance to immediately restore 5% of your base mana.

Quote
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 50% of your attack power, and reduces the mana cost of your Shock spells by 60%.

Speccing enhance will get you those two primary skills which should mean that mana management and spell scaling aren't big issues, particularly when you add Shamanistic Rage into the equation.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 02:01:57 PM by Ingmar »

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #25 on: October 04, 2010, 02:14:35 PM

So is there anyone who's happy about the patch? All I've heard is how fucked everything is in it, and how unbalanced, and how hard it is to do anything useful, and so forth. There was supposed to be a magic numbers pass that would miraculously fix everything at some point, but I haven't exactly heard any sighs of relief on the forums as yet.

So far this whole thing just looks like "We thought talent trees were getting too long, so we decided to break the game! Whee! Class balance was probably better than at any previous point, but fuck it we're starting over!"

Paladins sound like a complete mess. They don't know what the hell to do with the class, they never have, and they probably never will. I'll give it a shot when the patch comes out, but if I don't like it I'm skipping Cata and just letting the account expire. They've done nothing to grab my attention with this one. All I know about the 81-85 content is that there's some underwater zone at some point, and something something Twilight something Deathwing. (Rawr, Deathwing! I'm so badass! Please care about me and what's going on now that Arthas is dead and the WC3 story is finally over!) Nothing I'm chomping at the bit to get into.

Also, I'm just waiting for the shoe to drop on the next batch of Real ID facebook bullshit. You know it's coming.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 02:16:09 PM by WindupAtheist »

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Ingmar
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Reply #26 on: October 04, 2010, 02:16:27 PM

Most of it is 'someone moved my cheese' rage. There are real balance problems to be sure, but they'll get fixed, Blizzard has a pretty solid history in that regard imo.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sjofn
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Reply #27 on: October 04, 2010, 02:17:46 PM

Also, the next shoe to drop on Real ID was being allowed to opt out of it without doing parental control bullshit.

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Simond
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Reply #28 on: October 04, 2010, 02:45:36 PM

Also, I'm just waiting for the shoe to drop on the next batch of Real ID facebook bullshit. You know it's coming.
Yeah, that already happened earlier this week.




You can now opt out completely.

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Ingmar
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Reply #29 on: October 04, 2010, 02:49:04 PM

Or just opt out of your name showing in friends of friends, or just opt out of the Facebook bit (or both).

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Merusk
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Reply #30 on: October 04, 2010, 03:14:26 PM

Most of it is 'someone moved my cheese' rage. There are real balance problems to be sure, but they'll get fixed, Blizzard has a pretty solid history in that regard imo.

Hey, I actually get that reference!  Good book.

Anyway, yeah a lot of it is just "Omg I have to relearn my whole class AGAIN" rage.  I don't think any class is remaining untouched as far as having to relearn major portions of their shit.  Hunters, DKs, & Pallies all got big overhauls on their resources which mean nearly everything you've learned about playing your class to this point is gone.

Pally rage is understandable because it's the, what, 6th time and they're significantly different AGAIN.  From what I played around with on test it's all quality of life improvements, though. Consolidated seals and blessings, a new resource to manage to remove some of the randomness and provide more button pushing.   Really, you don't even have to wait for Cata to check it out, just create a test realm copy and check it out there.

The suck part of this all is something Sjofn mentioned earlier.  The talent and skill revamp means you don't get a goodie every level anymore.  Talents are spread out to every few levels and skills are still every other early on, eventually going away because ranks have been removed.  It means you eventually DO run into a grind of nothing but leveling for long periods with no rewards.  They've gone backwards here and it's something that might bite them in the ass long-term as hordes of new goblins and worgen discover there's no cookies in their skinner dispenser anymore.

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Rendakor
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Reply #31 on: October 04, 2010, 03:25:12 PM

I'm not really psyched for the changes as a DK; it feels like another huge nerf. On top of that, the cries of difficulty holding aggro has me really worried. I want the patch to hit because I want to see HOW bad it'll be.

Regarding my other classes, I haven't found any for whom the patch feels "cool". Mut Rogues and Destro Locks have been generally left alone; Prot Pallies don't look substantially worse; Arcane Mages seem to have some new mana management mechanic. Balance Druids are getting a new Eclipse mechanic that at least feels interesting (or, felt interesting when my Goblin Shaman had it in WAR).

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Reply #32 on: October 04, 2010, 03:32:15 PM

The elemental shaman changes are nice, from my puttering around with them on the PTR.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #33 on: October 04, 2010, 07:14:24 PM

What the fuck are they doing to Pallies this time? Jesus Christ.



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Reply #34 on: October 04, 2010, 08:25:12 PM

Probably not much use as advice or anything, but I've just been powerlevelling my 62 Pally up through the 60s and to 71 or 72 now with my wife's mage destroying everything in his path, and occasionally dropping kings, a heal, and spamming some cons and crusader strike for fun. I figure after 2 years off, and similarly to what I said about my hunter in another thread, the need to relearn the class, just to need to relearn it again a couple weeks later just made mindless powerlevelling my main choice of things to do with my pallydin.

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