So, I'm buying my first house

[shiznitz]

I do not agree at all with the proposition that anybody can DIY plumbing issues that don't require two people. Here's why, speaking from experience: if you're going to find out that there are nasty surprises hidden in the infrastructure of your house, it's going to be plumbing or it's going to be electrical, most of the time. (Sure, there's the occasional dead body rotting behind the drywall or what have you.)

DIY manuals on plumbing help you do something 'normal' but if you take apart the faucet to fix the washers because there's a drip and you find out that the parts inside the faucet are all super-cheapo plastic crap from twenty years ago and that's why there's a leak, because they broke, you're going to be hunting for a complete replacement while the sink/bathtub/shower is completely disabled and then you're maybe going to find that there's an incompatibility between your planned replacement and the non-standard piping set-up, and...you get the idea. Plumbing and wiring so far strike me as the domain where you can yank on a thread and find out that you've unravelled the whole sweater.

OTOH, they are also the domain where the worst predatory businesses lurk waiting to demolish your bank account and those guys WILL exploit you to the limit if they sense for a moment that you're clueless about the issues you've called them to fix. Like folks said, if you find a good plumber or electrician, never let them go and never tell your friends about them and make sure to send them something nice at Christmas.

Yeah, that goes beyond what I meant. But when I watched a plumber try and re-attach a faucet that he removed for 15 minutes, I realized that common sense and easily accessible directions go a long way.  Toilets also look intimidating, but are really simple to fix.

[Johny Cee]

Make sure that if you do escrow, you take into account all taxes and insurance costs.  (PS, do Escrow.)  My first place didn't take out taxes the first year, so for my second I had to pay double the estimated taxes.  A $600 a month jump hurts when you've had a year to settle in to not having it.

If you don't do escrow, (Why are you not doing escrow?), make sure you set aside the necessary amount for tax and insurance time.  Do not touch it until paying these items.

The taxes and insurance are factored into the monthly mortgage payments.

You might want to talk to an accountant as you may have a gift tax issue there (there are ways to structure it and account for it to avoid it, but 30k is over the yearly limit on tax-free gifts).

Hmm...I didn't think of that. I'm not real sure how this all works to be honest since it's my first house and I'd never heard of a gift of equity before now.

Edit: Ok. Some brief research makes it look like things will be fine. It is over her yearly limit, however, there is a $1 million lifetime limit that would absorb the extra. To my knowledge this is the first time she's given any kind of gift like this so it's no big deal. This house is pretty much her only asset besides her car since she lives with my grandmother. Now, she will inherit my grandmother's house and I'm sure at some point it'll pass from her to either my daughter or I but even then it will be well below that lifetime limit if I'm understanding things correctly.

Your aunt will still need to do a gift tax return, even if no tax is payable.  It formalizes and provides a paper trail for the transfer of basis (in case you need to sell before you hit the homeowners exemption, or in case you end up renting out the place), and the bank should be looking for a gift tax return for their records if you're calling the gift your downpayment.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p950/ar02.html#en_US_publink100099451

[pohsyb]

I bought a new house last year, and we've done it all:

First refinished the floors, ripped off the walls (and tore out the rotted bathroom floors), re-did the plumbing, electrical, windows, added Heating/AC, insulation and drywall.  This was all before we moved in, so we had to stay with the in-laws for a while.  We hired someong for part of the plumbing (I was not a fast plumber) and to do the Heater/AC since is the conflagration of mechanical, electrical and gas.

Next we did the same treatment for the kitchen/dining room, this was worse though because we were living there.

The Outside was our next project

The Backyard was a dirt wasteland.

Now I'm waiting on cabinets to be delivered to finish the kitchen, which was the nicest part of the house when we moved in, but is now the crappiest.  So if you need some DIY advice, I now have experience.

[sinij]

You are nuts, you could have retired on money you spent doing all that. Now you going to be mortgage-slave for the next 30 years without a way out, or worse have to sell in 5 years for less than renovation costs because of job move.

[pohsyb]

Honestly, I don't think we've spent that much, we are under $30k on renovations. 

Doing it yourself saves a ton of money.  Quick example, I installed the sprinkler system in the back yard with no help and it took one or two weekends and less than $300 in parts.  I know a landscaper and his quote was $2500. 

I see this as a net-win because when we were looking for houses the turn-key variety sold for about 50k more than we bought our dilapidated wreck.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Yeah, looks like there was a lot of improvements done to the house to fix some serious abuse and lack of upgrades over the years (did someone actually punch a hole in the master bedroom door?).  Lot of work but from the pics the house looks really nice.  Did you just get lucky with the wood floors being in good shape or did you have to fix them as well?

[Quinton]

Very nice remodel!  I thought about doing that, but with work being pretty insane, I opted for a pre-remodeled place that was ready to move in.  I sort of regret it (would have saved some money and had a bit more control over the final look of things), but realistically I did not have the time to either do it myself or supervise contractors.

[Merusk]

You are nuts, you could have retired on money you spent doing all that. Now you going to be mortgage-slave for the next 30 years without a way out, or worse have to sell in 5 years for less than renovation costs because of job move.

Not everyone hops around the country willy-nilly. Perhaps you with your go-go 'move every year to avoid the mobs with pitchforks" lifestyle forgot this.

Plus, as he said, it's cheap when you do it yourself.  What else do you think a married guy is going to do with his weekends, play videogames for 48 hours? 

[pohsyb]

Yeah, looks like there was a lot of improvements done to the house to fix some serious abuse and lack of upgrades over the years (did someone actually punch a hole in the master bedroom door?).  Lot of work but from the pics the house looks really nice.  Did you just get lucky with the wood floors being in good shape or did you have to fix them as well?

I think the master bedroom door was kicked in.  There were other random holes punched in some of the walls too.  I only know that when I first met the neighbor she said something like, "Oh thank god, someone normal".

The original floors were pretty bad, they had laid pergo over the wood floors, then let their cat pee all over it, so it expanded and warped into an unholy mess (lots of the drywall we ripped out was pee-soaked as well...who the hell lets their cat pee all over the place!?).  The wood underneath the pergo was water stained and warped in some areas, but we were still able to sand through it.  We stained it dark to conceal the many imperfections.

[Samwise]

The original floors were pretty bad, they had laid pergo over the wood floors, then let their cat pee all over it, so it expanded and warped into an unholy mess (lots of the drywall we ripped out was pee-soaked as well...who the hell lets their cat pee all over the place!?).  The wood underneath the pergo was water stained and warped in some areas, but we were still able to sand through it.  We stained it dark to conceal the many imperfections.

I have a similar story, but replace "pergo" with "carpet" and "cat" with "dog".  And "water stained and warped" with "pee stained and missing in some places".  And "we" with "professionals".

[Nebu]

I bought a new house last year, and we've done it all:

First refinished the floors, ripped off the walls (and tore out the rotted bathroom floors), re-did the plumbing, electrical, windows, added Heating/AC, insulation and drywall.  This was all before we moved in, so we had to stay with the in-laws for a while.  We hired someong for part of the plumbing (I was not a fast plumber) and to do the Heater/AC since is the conflagration of mechanical, electrical and gas.

Next we did the same treatment for the kitchen/dining room, this was worse though because we were living there.

The Outside was our next project

The Backyard was a dirt wasteland.

Now I'm waiting on cabinets to be delivered to finish the kitchen, which was the nicest part of the house when we moved in, but is now the crappiest.  So if you need some DIY advice, I now have experience.

You are amazing. 

I have a strong urge to take on projects such as these but have a fear of starting.  I haven't much experience in doing home renovations and don't want to be the kind that has to be rescued by a contractor. 

Any advice (feel free to chime in Sky).

[Nerf]

Most of it really isn't that complex Nebu, and it's hard to fuck up a light remodel.  All the paint+drywall+etc stuff is cake, one of those short weekend workshops at home depot would teach you everything you need to know and more.

Electricity is simpler than medicine, so I can't imagine you having issues there, and plumbing stuff just involves a blowtorch and soldering the fittings together, it only gets complicated when you have to start ripping out walls (do plumbing/electrical first).

Laminate floors just snap together, all you need is a saw, a hammer, and the little tapping blocks that they come with.

Painting with the airless spray gun is reaaaaly fast, just tape off *EVERYTHING*. Twice.  Even with all of the added prep time it will still come out faster.

Popcorn ceiling is the devil, use a little pump sprayer that you would use for lawn stuff filled with water to wet it down first, and then get a long handled scraper to scrape it clean.  The sprayer will help keep the dust down, otherwise it gets absolutely everywhere.

[pohsyb]

Any advice.

Don't let not knowing how to do something stop you.  I had pretty much no prior experience in any of this, I just figured it out as I went with common sense and the internet. 

Also, there is nothing wrong with being rescued by a contractor:
I started doing the whole house re-plumb myself, but I wasn't very quick.  I was not confident, so I was constantly capping my work to test for leaks.  I figured the rate I was going it would cost too much time so I hired some guys to finish it (which they did in one day).  Even though my plumbing skills didn't totally work out, I still think it was the right choice.  The contractors roughed everything in, but I was able to take care of the final fixtures.  I ended up re-routing both shower-heads and moving one of the sink inlets.  I also had to sweat a few joints to add the sprinklers.  I think the experience alone was worth it.

Nerf is totally right, most of these things sound scary but end up being pretty easy (though I don't know how Nerf is able find the motivation to do that on a rental.)

[Sky]

If you don't mind making mistakes and learning as you go, diy is awesome. I kind of have an odd history being a gypsy all those years doing odd jobs. Plus my step-father was an electrician so I picked up a few skills there. And I helped friends build roofs, did road construction, painted houses, etc. But really I had very little direct experience in home renovation and jumped in with both feet after buying the house. Most stuff is pretty straightforward and there aren't many things I'd call in a contractor for at this point - advanced plumbing or electrical is about it. For me, general contractors are more about saving time or doing a really shitty job (drywalling the ceiling).

I started here, this book will make you a good drywaller. My walls look better than the contractor's.


http://www.amazon.com/Drywall-Professional-Techniques-Great-Results/dp/1561589551

Main thing is to learn your limits and understand that opening walls will lead to new issues. Plan ahead to get as much done while you have the walls open as you can. Fix any problem you find while it's open. My rule of thumb with construction is to budget it the best you can, and double that. Don't be surprised if it triples. If it quadruples, then get worried/mad. That goes for time and money. Don't skimp on materials or rush. Read and research like a mofo.

[Polysorbate80]

Electricity is simpler than medicine, so I can't imagine you having issues there, and plumbing stuff just involves a blowtorch and soldering the fittings together, it only gets complicated when you have to start ripping out walls (do plumbing/electrical first).

Electricity in older homes:  short of turning off all power to the house, no matter which breakers you throw, somehow there will still manage to be an outlet, switch, fixture, etc that remains hot.  That fixture will inevitably be the one you wind up working on.

Also, make sure your plumbing is vented properly.  I've seen a lot of older homes where it isn't.

[Merusk]

I started doing the whole house re-plumb myself, but I wasn't very quick.  I was not confident, so I was constantly capping my work to test for leaks.  I figured the rate I was going it would cost too much time so I hired some guys to finish it (which they did in one day).  Even though my plumbing skills didn't totally work out, I still think it was the right choice.  The contractors roughed everything in, but I was able to take care of the final fixtures.  I ended up re-routing both shower-heads and moving one of the sink inlets.  I also had to sweat a few joints to add the sprinklers.  I think the experience alone was worth it.

Next time use Pex[/pex] tubing.  Wonderful stuff and no need for soldering, funny joints or expensive copper.  Plus it makes setting-up a manifold system so you can shut-off just one room or set of fixtures instead of the whole house really easy.

[Nebu]

Thank you everyone for the tips and the time.  I bought a bigger house that needs work but is in a wonderful location.  With my house being the worst in a very nice neighborhood, I figure that I have a lot of up-side if I can get the house into shape.  I learned to rebuild cars by just tearing them apart.  Perhaps this is just the same experience on a larger scale.  

[taolurker]

Congrats on the house Nebu, and others... Maybe the new title should be the DIY house thread, but I was more paying attention to the advice about the actual buying of the house (lenders, mortgages, credit ratings, interest rates, points) than the repair. I have to admit the rental comedy thread and this one, with reduced prices in my area had me thinking of ways to do home ownership myself.

PS.. a fun new direction this thread could now take would be if it was like the WoW Real ID thread, and someone magically posted where Nebu's new house was.. (!!!?!)

 

[Quinton]

Thank you everyone for the tips and the time.  I bought a bigger house that needs work but is in a wonderful location.  With my house being the worst in a very nice neighborhood, I figure that I have a lot of up-side if I can get the house into shape.  I learned to rebuild cars by just tearing them apart.  Perhaps this is just the same experience on a larger scale.  

On the plus side, your house does not need to handle motion at 60+mph on the highway.

On the minus side, if you remove enough structural material the roof can fall on you.

[KallDrexx]

On the plus side, your house does not need to handle motion at 60+mph on the highway.

Unless you are in Florida :D

[HorRIFTic]

Congratulations!  You are a braver man than I!

I have thought numerous times about buying a house.  Everytime I do I start thinking about the potential repair problems, the general upkeep and the other problems that can come with home ownership and I talk myself out of it. 

I think I am to the point where, unless I magically strike it rich, I will live in apartments or rented homes all my life.  I am just scared that I will own a home and something catastrophic will happen and I will be living paychech to paycheck, as usual, and be screwed.

Still, congratulations again!

[Samwise]

I think I am to the point where, unless I magically strike it rich, I will live in apartments or rented homes all my life.

That's not true at all -- once you're too old to keep working to pay rent, and Social Security has gone tits up, you'll be living in a cardboard box on the street.  (Assuming you live in the United States of Freedonia.)

[Abagadro]

I've found that most repair stuff isn't rocket-science, but two things generally will separate what you are doing from pros:

1) The time it takes. If your time is worth a lot, then a pro is usually the way to go as it will take you three times longer (at least until you've done something a few times).

2) Tools. They have really cool tools. Lots and lots of tools that you don't have.  If you are going to be doing it a lot and for a while, you can go ahead in invest in them, but also look at renting tools by the day as they can get expensive and eat up whatever money you are saving by doing it yourself.

[brellium]

Congratulations!  I hope that you enjoy the experience and make the place somewhere you're happy to come home to.

Also Every home repair/improvement costs twice what you think it will and will take twice as long when you do it yourself.

I once told a friend: "Doing your own home improvements is an admission that your time has no value."

Conversely: "Contractors are people who you pay to do the job wrong."

[MahrinSkel]

The first thing you should ask yourself before you do any home improvement yourself is "How much would it cost to fix if I fuck this up?"  Painting a room: A few more buckets of paint will cover just about any mistake.  Laying a tile or wooden floor: Eventually you're going to wind up with something you can walk on.  Minor plumbing (fixture changes, new sinks): You may do minor damage to the cabinets, floors, or other permanent features of the home.  Major plumbing (new water or sewage lines, major fixtures like bathtubs or water heaters): You can do major, perhaps irreparable damage to the structure.  Structural changes (including new roofing): Are you fucking nuts, or just trying to kill everyone?

--Dave

[Cheddar]

I draw the line at plumbing.  Another good way to save money is become friends with contactors!  Due to my position and no compete clause I cannot do IT work for money; but I CAN trade my skills for stuff in return.

I have had top notch plumbing done by fixing a dudes laptop.  Ditto electricity.  Had to replace my entire AC unit recently; not only got discount on labor but dude installed some top of the line Star Trek thermostat (didn't even ask for it) free of charge.

This is especially awesome if you have skills with small computers.   

[Salamok]

Congratulations!  I hope that you enjoy the experience and make the place somewhere you're happy to come home to.

Also Every home repair/improvement costs twice what you think it will and will take twice as long when you do it yourself.

I once told a friend: "Doing your own home improvements is an admission that your time has no value."

Conversely: "Contractors are people who you pay to do the job wrong."

It is really tough to find quality people willing to do small jobs.  I am currently residing a large portion of my house as a summer long DIY project, the quotes I have had were all in the $10k+ range, my total DIY bill will be under $4k and i'm even throwing in new windows (that were not in the 10k quote).  

Both of the contractors I have had bid this thing just wanted to go over the top of the rotting siding that is already there.  So basically $10k to put expensive lipstick on my half rotted ant infested problem, so far I have had to replace about 8 studs that were too rotted out to hold a nail.  This is back breaking labor to do by yourself and if I could find someone to do a job to my standards for under $10k it would probably be worth every penny.

Never buying another non-masonry sided house without taking a real good look (and maybe a few pokes with an icepick) at the siding.  I'll probably get the $4k I'm putting into this project back but I doubt it will add much more value than that, most buyers probably wont even notice it much beyond the new paint job.

edit - In my experience I can't afford the pros that are able to do the quality I want, the type of pros I can afford are the ones who can get the job done fast.  While the fast part is great for limiting the construction period inconvenience factor, having to live with a result you could have done better yourself (albeit in 10 times the construction time) isn't all that satisfying.

[Salamok]

oh yeah and fuck shitty drywall guys, tell them up front if you can see seams they can just skip getting paid and GTFO.  Being able to do your own drywall, tape & float is a great skill to have as a homeowner and while it can be messy it isn't really that hard.

[Merusk]

$10k to reside? Where the fuck did you find those guys, scammers-r-us? 

[Sky]

oh yeah and fuck shitty drywall guys, tell them up front if you can see seams they can just skip getting paid and GTFO.  Being able to do your own drywall, tape & float is a great skill to have as a homeowner and while it can be messy it isn't really that hard.

I ~love~ drywalling. Get some good music on and get in a groove. The only thing I dislike is waiting between coats of joint compound. My small contractor is pretty good, but he hates drywalling at my house because he knows I'm good at it. He did the ceiling in my living room and he broke out some new tricks he stole from a guy in NH and taught me since I'm not going into the drywalling business any time soon. I've mentioned this book before, but it bears repeating. If you own a house and don't already drywall as well as a contractor, get this book. I also dig the Black & Decker plumbing and electrical books for easy reference. I can't find them on amazon, they have basic and advanced books but also sell a combo version for both subjects that I recommend. Those three books cover most basic things you'll do around the house.

House across the street is going to put up new siding, their house is also masonry with stucco (like mine). Guinea pigs! We'll probably go vinyl, but I'd really like to do a stacked stone facade, or a half facade.

[Salamok]

$10k to reside? Where the fuck did you find those guys, scammers-r-us? 

Price of the siding on my house has almost doubled in the last year (t-111).  I considered switching to prepainted hardy but that shit is insanely expensive. Also my 10k quote included a full paint job. 

[Ironwood]

It ought to include a full blowjob.