WoW has no love for permanent groups

[Calantus]

Recently I've been completely amazed by Blizzard's solo-centric leveling system. We finally got a new family PC and a router so my brother and I can play WoW at the same time, and so we decided to make duo chars. I rolled a priest, he rolled a warrior, and we discovered our combo is absolutely sickening at this level. When we kill I shield my bro and he gathers 4-6 -2 to equal level mobs and proceed to own them thoroughly with him spamming thunder clap (love it when paladins say they can tank just as well as warriors... yeah, in your dreams hybrid-boy) and me healing him all the while. Oh, and we can chain-kill these mobs for 2-3 camps if we don't get adds, and our max numbers of adds was 9 all-told, or 7 with one being an elite named add. If we need to kill tougher mobs we can easily chain +2 mobs, even kill 3 at a time if we stretch and depending on special abilities and presence of casters. We can kill +2 solo named elites with little difficulty too (we can even chain-kill them if the respawn is both fast and slow enough to allow it).

A +3 mob is a big challenge. A +4 mob is almost impossible.

The problem starts with the fact that even though we have done every quest through Elwynn Forest and Westfall up to the last couple quests, the quests we have left now are either a MAJOR bitch or essentially impossible because we lack 2-3 levels we'd have if we were solo. This is a combination of essentially halving kill quest requirements for each of us, and having to split mob xp (the group bonus is shit). This would be ok if not for the second problem. I mean sure, we're lower levels, but we're 2x what we would have been solo, right? Wrong. Miss rates, resist rates (especially with wands, I mean damn, I get a 80% resist rate on +3 mobs even though my wand skill is only 2 points less than the highest it can be for my level), and damage prevention on level discrepencies mean we only get a slightly higher chance of killing a higher level mob. This will be relieved at higher levels, but our levels will also shrink more in comparison to mob level.

At the moment we gain the ability to grind much faster on equal/lesser con mobs, are able to take on higher content compared to our levels than others, and have 2/5 of a group and 2/3 of the holy trinity ready and waiting for when we need extra beef. In exchange we get to level slower than anybody else, and lose the ability to clear all-but the higher quests in zones before having to move to another zone to get some levels. I swear, if it wasn't for the fact that it is simply more fun and convenient we'd split ways to level and just group for the things we need groups for.

I know that WoW was made so that solo (and pickups for hard stuff) is a valid playstyle, but they go too far the other way and actively discourage contant grouping.

[Rasix]

The key is to just not level together every single waking moment.  You know those really easy quests? Do them on your own, especially flat out "kill x of y" quests.  The exp curve is pretty much balanced for that.   Grouping for "get x off y" aren't bad since you basically double the amount of crap you have to kill.

I've been with the same 2 people for the past 55 levels.  We group every night, but we realize that some of the content we just don't need to group for. Any tough quest, we group for.  I'd imagine that I do more than 50% of the content with them, but I still do a considerable amount on my own.  

But really, our grouping was more sporadic the first 30 levels or so.  It's been a lot more intensive lately.  Personally, I think it's a good balance, but the way the game is put together will annoy the "I MUST GROUP, GROUP OR DIE" compulsive grouper or the anti-social "this is Morrowind, fuckers" soler. You need a little of each for this game, and excluding one can hurt your overall progress.

[Lantien]

Chiming in with what Rasix said, I've found the most success generally grouping together on the "kill x defias accountants", since multiple people allow you to plow through those quests faster.  On things like fed exing, or looting x objects from a creature, do them solo.  Where groups really shine is being able to take down Elite quests at a quasi-sane level. In addition, around level 20, the warrior starts getting some really nice quests that may involve having basically a full group to successfully complete.  The ~30 quest to kill the Cyclonian comes to mind.

Also, remember that there are multiple places on the Alliance side that match the leveling criteria of Westfall.  I'd suggest going to Loch Modan, a nice little Dwarf location, or if you're able to find people that are willing to show you the way, think about going to Darkshore, the Elvish equivalent. Getting to Loch Modan is trivially easy; take the Tram from the Dwarvish part of Stormwind City to Ironforge (it's free!), and then walk out of Ironforge and go down the mountain, and then go west (I think), and then  North through the tunnels. You may or may not want to do the Newbie quests in the zone, but they honestly weren't worth my time.  

Keep in mind though, if you want to go to Darkshore, the easiest way to get to the other continent is through Methenil Harbor, which involves going through a high level zone than what you're accustomed to.  It's doable, if you stick to the roads and look over a map.

It turns out Rasix, that you and I are on the same server, just on different sides.  I'll keep my eye out for you the next time I stumble into Booty Bay, although I think you have at least 10 levels on me.

Edit: Oops, nearly 20 levels.

[Calantus]

Yeah I know that splitting up and going solo for most of the content would be much faster XP-wise. We do have our solo chars that we play solo whenever we like and we'll group up just to do things we need help for. The exact point of our duo chars though is for them to be grouped always (though I solo XP'd for roughly 2.5k XP at level 14 because of me losing my starting zone quests by running to human lands from dun morogh, and priest lvl 10 quest being nothing compared to warrior lvl 10) as it is alot of fun to play them that way.

I'm just annoyed that it makes it so much harder to level this way. To my mind, one of (please note the "one of" here) the biggest reasons to play a MMOG is to play with a set group of friends. It brings something to the table that soloing + grouping for the hard stuff just doesn't do. I like soloing as much as anybody, but when I wanna get my group groove on I don't think I should be punished for it in a game based on playing with other people.

And yeah, we are ripping up the "alternate" zones for our levels when we run into quest walls in the human zones. Though we will avoid NE lands for as long as humanly possible. I once made a NE char against my better judgement and their zones just did nothing for me (same as undead... I think it might be the darkness and closed-in feeling of them).

Also, we are on a PVP server, so being together all the time will have further incentives once we hit the more balanced/neutral contested lands.

[Fargull]

Couple of observations

I group with roughly 9 people on a regular basis.  The core of which boils down to 4 or 5.

XP moves the fastes in groups starting at about 16th level when Wailing Caverns opens up.. then Blackfathom.. then Scarlet Monestary.. and so on..  Right now as a group we make far greater xp in the instance dungeons than as a group outside.  Although some areas make grouping really essential.. namely Thousand Needles and Swamp of Sorrows.. this is just looking at the PvE side.. being on a PvP server only a few high level zones preclude the benefit of being grouped.

Now.. I play Horde, so my views are tinged.  Honestly, most of your problem is probably from being on the Alliance..

[kaid]

My group has never really run into this issue. One thing to note though is we often will switch hunting areas so we can do more quests. We did the ironforge area and the stormwind area quests by alternating which we worked on a given night. Sure we technically burned through one set of quests a bit to fast for the next level up but when we worked both sets of quests the pace was just right. Plus the cash/loot rewards were better and we got to see more stuff.


The advantage of a steady group is as you get used to stuff  and how you work together you can start doing ALOT more things than any pickup or soloer can think of. Such as our recent trips to darkshire where we wound up killing a level 33 named ogre when our highest was I believe 25.  Was it hard OH YA but because we all know eachother so well we could do what we needed to do to survive without having to explain what we wanted to do before hand.


There is more than just one quest track in the land get out and find them and you will have lots more fun with a steady group than solo grinding. Also eventually when you get to the more kill  x to get y drops you will generally find that those are MUCH slower in group than solo which evens off the simple kill x missions.


kaid

[WindupAtheist]

A +3 mob is a big challenge. A +4 mob is almost impossible.

Does this mean if you're both level 20 and a level 24 foozle runs up, you're doomed?  Because my solo paladin used to be able to take on +2 and +3 mobs in pairs, and +4 mobs singly.  I quit at 30 though, so maybe it gets harder later.

[Rasix]

It depends, there's certain mobs that tend to be over or under cons.  With my shaman, I've never had any problems killing +3 mobs.  This is a little harder early on, because your gear probably sucks and you don't have a great deal of hitpoints.  You generally have less methods for dealing with this. Plus 4 is a little difficult if you don't have healing, melee and perhaps an indirect way of doing damage.  If you're a mage, you're going to get a LOT of resists from +4 mobs.  

Last night we took a level 59 elite with two of us at 55. Now, this guy was kinda a creampuff, but it seems later on +3 and +4 isn't as much as a done deal.  But, as always, it's dependent with the mob.

[WayAbvPar]

It depends, there's certain mobs that tend to be over or under cons.

OMG I ran into the Lord God King Shit of undercons last night in Razorfen Kraul - I think it was a Death's Head Adept. Conned as 28 elite, and wiped my party of a 30 rogue, a 29 warrior and a 29 druid 3 FUCKING TIMES. BY ITSELF.

The spell bomb they use is the most unbalanced piece of shit to ever grace a MMOG server. Anyone else ever run into this thing? I can't believe it got past playtesting.

[Paelos]

When fighting any casters, a warrior is a must. We get interrupts that basically make casters dead men walking. It's nice.

[Rasix]

Just wait until you do the temple in Swamp of Sorrows.  There's a level 47 or so elite Atal'ai zombie.  These have a 400 direct damage instacast disease spell that they can spam at a distance.  It's like a machine gun. That temple is all sorts of fucked up, but that mob really stands out.  Your hitpoints just drop like a rock when they lay into you.

Another favorite undercon of mine is the elite Ogre Maulers in Stranglethorne.  They hit for 250 a shot to someone in full chain and have a truckload of hitpoints.  This a 43-44 elite than can take out a pair of level 50s if they mess up.

[Soukyan]

Swamp of Sorrows

Do you meet Atreyu and Artax? WTF, Neverending Story ripoff?!

[WayAbvPar]

When fighting any casters, a warrior is a must. We get interrupts that basically make casters dead men walking. It's nice.

I am sure my buddy (the previously mentioned 29 warrior) will take great comfort in this as he runs from the Camp T graveyard AGAIN =)

Between my rogue's nearly constant stream of damage (with the occasional stun) and the warrior's stuns, there is just no way a lower level mob should take both of us out and then snack on our druid. The third time we did it both the Druid and I had Shadow Protection potion effects going and we STILL got pwned. I was so pissed off I logged off before I even retrieved my corpse.

[Calantus]

A +3 mob is a big challenge. A +4 mob is almost impossible.

Does this mean if you're both level 20 and a level 24 foozle runs up, you're doomed?  Because my solo paladin used to be able to take on +2 and +3 mobs in pairs, and +4 mobs singly.  I quit at 30 though, so maybe it gets harder later.

What cons you can take on generally get better as you get higher up. With my paladin I can take +6 mobs if I suck down a big mana pot and burn lay on hands (though certain even conn mobs give me grief). Part of it is better gear over normal items, skills that give you extra power over the number attached to you, and generally having more HP and thus being more able to control a situation. The biggest reason though is the hard-coded miss and resist rates in addition to the damage reduction. When my brother hits 1/4 hits if he is lucky, and I'd have to burn through a few heals worth of mana just to throw on SW:Pain (which I refrain from doing of course) it's just not going to happen.

I'm not so much angry as I am schocked  (though I hate how I become utterly useless for anything +4 besides healing). It just really wasn't expecting a game to punish me for regular grouping so harshly XP-wise. And I think that WoW really should be trying to cater to groups a little more and could still do so easily without stepping on the solo player.

[Paelos]

Yes you did have a warrior, he's just not high enough yet to use 2H swords and do a caster interrupt. That's a lvl 38 skill called pummel, and it rules when you are in beserker stance, which is now far and away the best group stance.

You are correct though, that's a horrible miscon.

[kaid]

In my normal if spastic group which consists of 3 hunters and a warlock any non elite mob 5 or 6 levels above us is a joke and dies brutally. Elites of 5 levels or so above us are very doable and sometimes we can take specific elites of a 6 or 7 levels above us but it is ugly and long.

The main problem for us is not damage done to us or our pets tanking its the fact once a mob gets enough levels above you the miss rate goes skyhigh. Its kind of like a bit more forgiving COH after a mob is past a certain level above you your shots simply will not land and your spells will be resisted.

If you are duoing most groups should handle +4 or so mobs without to much trouble.

Edit cause I screwed up hehe.

Kaid

[Sable Blaze]

Berzerker stance the best group stance? What game are you playing? It's not WoW.

Zerk stance certainly has it uses, but default grouping stance isn't one of them. You only flip into zerk stance to use certain abilities. It's default "features" aren't any of them. Pummel, intercept, whirlwind, and recklessness are the reasons you go into zerk. You sure don't stay there, though. And you sure as hell don't on mobs +4 or more to you. My own druid partner would have a cow trying to heal me under those conditions.

I could see spending a lot more time in zerk when PvP'ing. No way I'd remain in it a second longer than needed in PvE, however.

[Paelos]

With a 10% burn on damage for the crit return? If healers can't handle that they are retarded. Granted you don't do it against a +4 tanking mob, but against a caster when you are a 2H warrior? You'd be a fool not to do that.

And I also wasn't referring to the +4 situations all the time. Zerker is the best stance for a warrior who is facing a stream of equal lvl up to +2 mobs en masse. Mainly the cleave talent being top dog in those scenarios. Whirlwind if you have major adds.

[Strazos]

Zerker is the best stance for a warrior who is facing a stream of equal lvl up to +2 mobs en masse. Mainly the cleave talent being top dog in those scenarios. Whirlwind if you have major adds.

My lvl 36 war went up to full crits....and even that Zerker stance bonus didn't do a whole lot, especially with the downright GAY warrior miss rate.

BTW, cleave is for suckers, Sweeping strikes FTW.

[Dren]

If you force yourself to only group, you will have to go to all three major areas as an alliance character.  You have to hit the human, dwarf, and elf areas constantly and go through all of the content in each area.  

THAT will keep you questing 100% of the time with a good spread of green up to red quests.  If you haven't hit the Dark Elf area, you are missing a TON of quests.  You'll want to do this to gain reputation anyway.  It gains you cheaper prices for items specific to each area.

Once you run out of green or yellow quests in an area, move on to the other two.  Just keep rotating like that and you'll be fine.

[Litigator]

It depends, there's certain mobs that tend to be over or under cons.

OMG I ran into the Lord God King Shit of undercons last night in Razorfen Kraul - I think it was a Death's Head Adept. Conned as 28 elite, and wiped my party of a 30 rogue, a 29 warrior and a 29 druid 3 FUCKING TIMES. BY ITSELF.

The spell bomb they use is the most unbalanced piece of shit to ever grace a MMOG server. Anyone else ever run into this thing? I can't believe it got past playtesting.

Spell bomb detonates if you use an ability. you have to kill that monster using only your regular attack

[trias_e]

Grouping is for instances and the occasional "Randomly-run-into-someone-doing-the-same-quest-as-you" thing only.  It really is discouraged in many quests.

However, having a permanent group to do instances with is exceedingly helpful.

[WayAbvPar]

It depends, there's certain mobs that tend to be over or under cons.

OMG I ran into the Lord God King Shit of undercons last night in Razorfen Kraul - I think it was a Death's Head Adept. Conned as 28 elite, and wiped my party of a 30 rogue, a 29 warrior and a 29 druid 3 FUCKING TIMES. BY ITSELF.

The spell bomb they use is the most unbalanced piece of shit to ever grace a MMOG server. Anyone else ever run into this thing? I can't believe it got past playtesting.

Spell bomb detonates if you use an ability. you have to kill that monster using only your regular attack

Ahh ok. I figured it was something like that.  I stand by my initial statement- it is VASTLY overpowered for the level of the mob.

[Fraeg]

well look at it this way, when you and your brother hit 60, being able to say:


/4 60 priest, 60 warrior, LFM for ubrs/lbrs/stratho/scholo   

will make the endgame much easier than:

/4 lvl 60 rogue who solo ground his ass to 60 in a little over 2 months post release LFG for anything... please guys... please.... pretty please?!?!


-nat

[WayAbvPar]

It depends, there's certain mobs that tend to be over or under cons.

OMG I ran into the Lord God King Shit of undercons last night in Razorfen Kraul - I think it was a Death's Head Adept. Conned as 28 elite, and wiped my party of a 30 rogue, a 29 warrior and a 29 druid 3 FUCKING TIMES. BY ITSELF.

The spell bomb they use is the most unbalanced piece of shit to ever grace a MMOG server. Anyone else ever run into this thing? I can't believe it got past playtesting.

Spell bomb detonates if you use an ability. you have to kill that monster using only your regular attack

Thanks for this bit of advice, btw. Gave Razorfen another try last night and didn't die once (even got spell bombed a couple of times and just hacked the bastard to bits without specials- then danced on his entrails). Our druid ate it a couple of times (his own damned fault), but the warrior and I survived. Of course, I leveled 3 times since our last trip, so my survivability went up a shade.  Still no drops for my poor rogue, but the money was decent.

[Train Wreck]

Yes you did have a warrior, he's just not high enough yet to use 2H swords and do a caster interrupt. That's a lvl 38 skill called pummel, and it rules when you are in beserker stance, which is now far and away the best group stance.

Can't you just Bash them with a shield at lvl 12?

That's what its description leads me to believe, though I haven't tried it yet (stupid money problems).

[Strazos]

Yes you did have a warrior, he's just not high enough yet to use 2H swords and do a caster interrupt. That's a lvl 38 skill called pummel, and it rules when you are in beserker stance, which is now far and away the best group stance.

Can't you just Bash them with a shield at lvl 12?

That's what its description leads me to believe, though I haven't tried it yet (stupid money problems).

Switching weapons like that is kinda inconvienent, especially when there's slight lag when swapping weapons. Lack of Cosmos' extra bars multiplies the difficulty of weapon swaps. Also, shield bash cannot be used while in beserker stance, which is the problem pummel alleviates.

[Calantus]

I'm starting to notice a growing problem with the warrior/priest duo. Against tough bosses and elites that a paladin our level could grind down fairly easily, we struggle. The problem is one of aggro. I have to save most of my mana for healing, so I can't just dump my mana on the mob, which means my addition to DPS is fairly minor (pain + staff hits), and the warrior has to keep using aggro skills like revenge and sunder so his damage is around the same as that of a paladin. So overall we don't do that much more damage than a paladin would. Even still we have aggro problems because his normal hits just aren't reliable to both generate enough rage to use aggro skills, and generate aggro on their own. Often I have to tank for short amounts of time, or fade out, or my bro has to taunt/mocking blow. It's really a struggle to juggle all that aggro and the fights last so damn long it switches all the time. A paladin just keeps his seal up and heals as necessary. It's really irritating knowing that if one of us was a paladin, the other person could just sit around or dance and it would still be easier than how it is now for certain mobs.

Still wouldn't change the duo because it's insane in alot of ways, especially in making groups, just all the little annoyances of the duo get me down whenever I think about them.

Oh, and here's a gem. You only get group XP bonuses when you have 3 or more people in your group. It boggles the mind.

[Sky]

Oh, and here's a gem. You only get group XP bonuses when you have 3 or more people in your group. It boggles the mind.

With SOE thinking solo=duo, and this tidbit, I really wonder just how pervasive dual-boxing is. Is this solo=duo nonsense coming from a perception that dual-boxing is very widespread? Is it?

I see it now and again in WoW, nowhere near as much as I did in EQ, and apparently it's rampant in DAoC (buffbots).

Is dual-boxing screwing 'normal' solo players?

[Train Wreck]

Switching weapons like that is kinda inconvienent, especially when there's slight lag when swapping weapons. Lack of Cosmos' extra bars multiplies the difficulty of weapon swaps. Also, shield bash cannot be used while in beserker stance, which is the problem pummel alleviates.

I don't know about switching weapons.  My level is too low to have berzerker stance.

The bad thing about Shield Bash is that it only lasts for 6 seconds, but takes 12 seconds to refresh itself.  I guess it will have to do until I get something better, though.