I cannot help thee with that

[El Gallo]

Nice to see WoW picking up where Abashi left off.  I especially love the GM's "oh, we know that's a bug, that's why we can't help you with it" line.

http://www.warguild.net/cms/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10039/AwesomeCustomerService.jpg

[Paelos]

I don't understand what was bugged in that issue.

[AcidCat]

Your supervisor
Give them to me
Now


Whatever they're paying those GMs, it's not enough. The amount of retardation they must deal with in a single day is staggering to consider.

[Righ]

That's not unusual, but they probably ought to send their CSRs on this course if that's the best they can manage.

[Paelos]

Is anyone else clear on what the issue was? I've missed it. I see a GM saying, we can't help you, and another guy saying you did it in Beta. Oh well if they did it in BETA it must apply to the live game, right? I don't think people understand what Beta is.

[Nebu]

My understanding is that a group was trying to raid an area and got split between two instances.  The group simply wanted to be placed together in the same instance such that they could finish the raid.  Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

I feel for these guys... their bosses hand down directives knowing they don't have to face the fire from the customer for enforcing them.  If you ever have to deal with a GM, try not to shoot the messenger.

[AcidCat]

their bosses hand down directives knowing they don't have to face the fire from the customer for enforcing them.  If you ever have to deal with a GM, try not to shoot the messenger.

Pretty much goes for any type of customer service job.

[Signe]

You people take all the fun out of petitioning GMs.

[El Gallo]

Dudes, Blizzard has an official policy not to help players who are getting fucked by a known even though they have shown that they have to ability to do so.  The guild was split into two different versions of the same instance because of a known bug, and policy is not to fix that problem because it is a known bug.  WTF?  

No, it's not the GM's fault, it's Blizzard's fault.  But if you tell your GM staff "hey, we know about this bug but if people ask you to help them, tell them 'we know all about your bug and yeah it sucks but we aren't gonna help you even though we can because...well, because we just don't wanna.  No, you can't talk to anyone higher up, but feel free to send an e-mail to lol_you_know_this_will_be_insta_deleted@blizzard.com have a nice day'" you know damn well that players are going to go off on them.  

In any event, I don't think the player in this case overracted at all.  He didn't curse or insult the guy.   He was initially completely and utterly stunned, which I would be if I was told "Its a known bug, that's why I can't help you with it."  Then he said "let your boss know that your customer service is terrible" which is just an objectively true fact of the universe.

This is worse than anything I've seen SoE do, excepting the Mystere shindig.  It, along with bugged lockout timers and obvious missing progression steps, is part of Blizzard frantically attempting to cockblock their players from completing current content until they actually finish content that Blizz claims is already in the game.  It's Vex Thal keys and Plane of Earth B all over again.

I don't think people understand what Beta is.

I think they understand quite clearly that they are beta testing right now.

[Toast]

Conspiracy theories aside, have you considered the possibility that solving an incident of this bug might be very difficult in "real time"?

What if there's no easy way to move players from one instance to another?

Nah, that's not likely. Let's just go with "Blizzard hates you, wah wah wah."

[Nebu]

Conspiracy theories aside, have you considered the possibility that solving an incident of this bug might be very difficult in "real time"?

Ever hear of a workaround? Your customer has a legitimate problem with a broken game element.  If the mechanic isn't fixable, perhaps you should consider a) offering them a compromise (i.e. allowing them to restart the encounter together in the same instance) or b) eliminating access to the problem area until such a time when the problem could be fixed.  

MMOG's being the crack addiction that they are, most houses realize that they have some latitude in dealing with such issues.  The complaint here isn't that Blizzard is evil, it's that they are aware of a problem and have done nothing to minimize their customer's exposure to a bad experience with said problem.  To make the situation worse, the apathetic GM supervisor is forcing their staff to offer customers a non-fix knowing full well that the customer will take out their frustration on the GM rather than the supervisor.

1. Report the problem and request assistance.  

2. If they can't help request an accomodation.

3. If no compromise is offered, consider your options.  

You're right though... as frustrated as you get with the GM, there's no reason to be an ass about it.

[AlteredOne]

With all the money Blizzard is raking in from this launch, their first priority should be extravagant support.  In my experience, the two biggest retention-breakers are:  horrible technical bugs, and bad/insulting support.  If I were on their management team, I would go for overkill on the support this close to launch, and scale back later if need be.  If your retention is incredible, maybe you won't need to scale back at all.

[HaemishM]

Shit, this is NOTHING like Abashi-style GM'ing. If it was, the GM would have threatened to ban the guy if he kept sending tells, and when he did send tells, the GM would have banned the guy, banned his entire guild, and then sent an unkillable dragon with death touch rampaging through six town zones for three hours.

[Alkiera]

Conspiracy theories aside, have you considered the possibility that solving an incident of this bug might be very difficult in "real time"?

What if there's no easy way to move players from one instance to another?

Nah, that's not likely. Let's just go with "Blizzard hates you, wah wah wah."

That'd be fine, except the guy notes that GM's WERE doing this for people during the beta period.  So it is possible.  Heck, the GM as much as says that he'd like to help them, but policy forbids him from doing so.  Not technology, policy.

Just sayin'.

And Haemish, I don't think abashi was ever a GM.  And frankly, if it takes that for a company to end up where SOE is now, which, forums-wise, is second to CoH.  The dev tracker there lists lots of sane posts daily by the CSRs, and even actual devs posting questions and clarifications regarding posts of bugged quests from the big content patch they did a couple weeks ago.

Of course, the more you do, the more players expectations go up...  

Alkiera

[HaemishM]

Abashi wasn't a GM that I know of. I'm just saying that comparing this GM's evil quotient to Abashi was way off.

[Rasix]

I'm sure GMs in beta had a lot more powers than what they do now.  GMs that did that in beta were probably closely tied to the developers that wanted to witness people taking on these harder raid instances. You're comparing two different situations.  One situation where they desperately needed data points and one where they have your credit card. Once you're out of beta, special favors that could help testing are replaced with cold hard policy.

Should there be an expectation of better service in this situation? Sho 'nuff! The guy seemed ill equiped to handle the situation and probably should have some sort of stock reply on a cue card for this and just refuse further conversation.  Most of your bargain basement CSRs aren't bright enough to go toe to toe with a pissed off ub0r.

[Calantus]

It's worse than simply being split between instances. You are split between instances... then each split is locked into a group for the instance such that you cannot simply leave the instance and try again for about a week or so unless you wanna try with 1/2 a raid.. What this means is that if a raiding guild(s) get a raid together and get a split, that's your endgame on hold for about a week.

About the policy, it is the right one for the problem they have created for themselves. From what I have heard (rumor and supposition though it is) there is only 1 GM per server, per shift. If this GM had to teleport players everytime they decided to say "fuck the bug, lets roll the dice and waste a GM's time to fix us after" (plus all the "you do it for that/them, why not for this/us?") then the GM response time would be even more crap than it is now.

Of course the REAL solutions would fall into one of 3 reasonable alternatives: 1) get more GM's so they have time to deal with this shit 2) get it fixed like right now 3) lock the instance until you can fix it. If the above 3 aren't possible then the option they have now is fair and good. Of course, you'd have difficulty convincing me 1 and 3 are not possible, so yeah...

And this was not a bad GM response at all. Infact, I would say it was a FANTASTIC GM response. He talked the issue through fully, he talked with his collegues in an attempt to find a more acceptable solution, he empathised with the player, he was very patient, and he even asked if he had any other problems before he left. It's the policy that's wrong, not the GM. Not at all.

[HaemishM]

This reminds me of the bug that used to hit the Plane of Fear every once in a while. After a patch or a server reset, the zone wouldn't repop, and you'd have to get a GM to manually repop the zone for you. And they would too. That latsted for 2-3 years at least.

[Rasix]

This reminds me of the bug that used to hit the Plane of Fear every once in a while. After a patch or a server reset, the zone wouldn't repop, and you'd have to get a GM to manually repop the zone for you. And they would too. That latsted for 2-3 years at least.

I had a lot of different and varying GM experiences during my time playing EQ.  They were either extremely helpful and would go out of their way to make sure your play experience wasn't ruined.  Hell, we had a GM kill 2 mobs in the Plane of Growth to allow us to CR and leave. However, they could also invoke the "I cannot help thee", "I will not reimburse you for that", or "I don't feel like checking the logs right now".  It was a wildly inconsistent experience.

[Calantus]

That's why a unified policy is a good thing. Even if it is a shitty policy.

[El Gallo]

The intermediate solution is to get rid of the lockout timers on instances unless you beat the instance, which is what Tigole swore up and down they would do before release.  

I really think that this is part of an intentional cockblocking strategy to keep power gamers away from the fact that they are just about finished with all the content that actually exists.

EDIT: Tigole to the rescue http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=1039976&p=1&tmp=1#post1039976
so this should be fixed one of the three patches they will put out over the next year.

[HaemishM]

EDIT: Tigole to the rescue http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=1039976&p=1&tmp=1#post1039976
so this should be fixed one of the three patches they will put out over the next year.

Holy fuck, that's a crapload of pretty big bugs, especially when you consider how important raids are to the endgame of MMOG's of this type.

[schild]

This whole endgame problem amazes me. Didn't Onyxia work in beta? it occurs to me that this has everything to do with Shadowbane.

[Nija]

This whole endgame problem amazes me. Didn't Onyxia work in beta? it occurs to me that this has everything to do with Shadowbane.

She "worked" - if worked= beat the shit out of people. That whole 'hatchlings got messed up due to some other change' thing is funny though. Reminds me of OSI fixing the snoop bug and then magic missle did 90 dmg. wtg.

[Margalis]

Eh...this is turning out like every other MMORPG release. Been there, done that.

Content that was promised not delivered, delivered way late, or in poor fashion...surprising!

[sidereal]

Eh...this is turning out like every other MMORPG release. Been there, done that.

Content that was promised not delivered, delivered way late, or in poor fashion...surprising!

Also applies to: plumbers, electricians, mechanics, authors, and prom dates.  It's really a problem with people.

[Calantus]

This whole endgame problem amazes me. Didn't Onyxia work in beta? it occurs to me that this has everything to do with Shadowbane.

Yes and no. She "worked" because they rolled back the lockout timers to 6 hours. Which they only did for the "kill a raid boss" competitions.

[Soukyan]

All this over bad customer service? You know what I do when I get bad customer service? I take my business elsewhere. Someday gamers will grow up and learn to let their money do the talking... and walking as necessary. It's a might powerful tool.

[Jayce]

All this over bad customer service? You know what I do when I get bad customer service? I take my business elsewhere. Someday gamers will grow up and learn to let their money do the talking... and walking as necessary. It's a might powerful tool.

At a convenience store, where you've invested maybe 5 minutes, sure.

An MMOG is more like a vocational school, where they've provided the context for you to build up a legacy.  Quitting to make a point is doable, but definitely more painful given the investment you've put in so far.

[Calantus]

Games make it difficult by their very nature as well. With many other things you can just leave and bring your business to somoene else without losing too much. With games you can't really do that because they are all different to an extent. If you like WoW but don't like the CS that Blizzard has provided you can't just play WoW with a different company. If you don't like the CS you either play and put up with it, move to an inferior alternative for you (because if it was better you'd be playing it instead), or just not play at all. Those aren't anything like going to over a few blocks to shop at another supermarket, or getting your car serviced somewhere else.

[Soukyan]

All this over bad customer service? You know what I do when I get bad customer service? I take my business elsewhere. Someday gamers will grow up and learn to let their money do the talking... and walking as necessary. It's a might powerful tool.

At a convenience store, where you've invested maybe 5 minutes, sure.

An MMOG is more like a vocational school, where they've provided the context for you to build up a legacy.  Quitting to make a point is doable, but definitely more painful given the investment you've put in so far.

It's not painful. It's a fucking game. If it's painful, then that would be the realization that you wasted days upon days of your life for absolutely nothing. And that's exactly what it is... nothing. It's a virtual avatar, data really, that will be gone when the servers go dark someday. Investment of time can be painful if you end up feeling that you've invested it poorly. That's why people don't quit. If they keep playing, they don't ever have to address the reality of a wasted life. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Soukyan]

Games make it difficult by their very nature as well. With many other things you can just leave and bring your business to somoene else without losing too much. With games you can't really do that because they are all different to an extent. If you like WoW but don't like the CS that Blizzard has provided you can't just play WoW with a different company. If you don't like the CS you either play and put up with it, move to an inferior alternative for you (because if it was better you'd be playing it instead), or just not play at all. Those aren't anything like going to over a few blocks to shop at another supermarket, or getting your car serviced somewhere else.

There are multitudes of games and other leisure activities available in the world today. I find it hard to believe that WoW is so good that you can't find something just as entertaining to do with your spare time. Step back and look at the big picture. There's a whole world out beyond the confines of the MMOG and online gaming genres. ;)

[Toast]

I find it hard to believe that WoW is so good that you can't find something just as entertaining to do with your spare time.

If find it hard to believe you could be so patronizing on a gaming message board. People other than you actually do make choices about whether playing a game is a fun way to spend time or not.

World of Warcraft is video game and a "hobby". A great number of people derive real enjoyment from playing it. Just because these players don't run and cancel subscriptions over some random guy's sob customer service story doesn't make them mindless, addicted victims.

At my favorite restaurant, I've gotten bad service every once in a while. What if I want to go back there because I love the food or the ambiance?

[Soukyan]

I find it hard to believe that WoW is so good that you can't find something just as entertaining to do with your spare time.

If find it hard to believe you could be so patronizing on a gaming message board. People other than you actually do make choices about whether playing a game is a fun way to spend time or not.

World of Warcraft is video game and a "hobby". A great number of people derive real enjoyment from playing it. Just because these players don't run and cancel subscriptions over some random guy's sob customer service story doesn't make them mindless, addicted victims.

At my favorite restaurant, I've gotten bad service every once in a while. What if I want to go back there because I love the food or the ambiance?

I meant that guy should cancel. Instead of sobbing about it, if it really bothers him that much.

As to the restaurant thing, I can agree with you. If I get bad service once in a while, I can still go. And I probably would because, well, it's my favorite restaurant and there are more reasons for that than just service. But people have a threshold and once that is reached, why would you continue to go? Would you stand outside and complain to other people coming to eat about how bad your experience was? Would you whine and moan and groan and make a spectacle of yourself? Perhaps, you would, but I would take my money and business somewhere else. To each their own.

Lastly, apologies if I came across as patronizing. I was just trying to share some experience of my own. It's more than just gaming, it's a community. ;)

[Toast]

Sorry about the harsh tone of the earlier message.

I just think that people get a little hysterical about customer service. And on message boards like this, you see:

"If there was evidence of bad customer service, you should immediately quit a game or else you are contributing to the downfall of MMORPGs"

I view it like i look at financial numbers:  Gross Fun - Aggravation from Servers/Support/Other = Net Fun .