Can we discuss drugs?

[Trouble]

Not necessarily illicit. For my own part, I want to discuss legal pharmaceuticals. Haven't found a thread for this kind of thing.

[Nebu]

I've taught pharmacology, clinical toxicology, and medicinal chemistry for years.  I'll be happy to address questions if I'm able.  I also recommend sites like www.rxlist.com for information.

[01101010]

I have first hand experience with many types of pharmaceuticals. 

[Lantyssa]

Morphine didn't impress me.  Hydrocodone is a godsend.

Tramadol sucks.  Felt terrible on it, it caused terrible dreams, and it felt like I was dying coming off.  Even though I slept for 36 hours straight (broken by two, hour periods where I attempted to eat), I still felt like crap the entire time.

I drank Benadryl like water as a kid.  With all my childhood allergies I'm very thankful it always worked well for me and the only tolerance I developed was to it causing drowsiness.

[lac]

Morphine didn't impress me.

That's a bold statement.

[Nebu]

That's a bold statement.

If she likes hydrocodone, she likes morphine... just in a more indirect way. 

[Miguel]

Not necessarily illicit.

Alas:  I thought this thread might go to good places.

[Nebu]

I'll be happy to discuss those as well.  I have been known to teach the manufacture of controlled substances in my synthetic courses. 

[Lantyssa]

I was in the hospital recently with a 10 minute 2mg morphine button.  For whatever reason it just didn't seem as effective as my 5mg per 4 hour hydrocodone, even though they're very similar.  Morphine also made me more nauseous.

[Selby]

Morphine also made me more nauseous.

Yes.  It's horrible for that and I dislike it intensely over such horrid side effects.  My friend said I'd make a terrible junkie =P

[ghost]

Certain folks have a fairly intense nausea reaction to opiates, just as some people become horribly addicted to them.  I happen to fall in the former category myself.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Hydrocodone is wonderful, while Codeine, even just a little in cough syrup, makes me freak out.  Weird stuff.

Ritalin is pure speed for most people; but for some with ADD or ADHD it's like a tranquilizer, even to the point of putting you to sleep.  Weird stuff.

The side effects of blood pressure medications all pretty much suck.  Hypertension without blood pressure medication really sucks.  Choose wisely.

I'm allergic to every tree, grass and weed in my yard, dust and dust mites, my cat, mold & mildew, etc, etc & etc.  Allegra once a day means I can breathe without wheezing, see without my eyes being puffy red, weepy and itchy, and basically live without trying to scratch my own skin off.  Better living through chemistry!

My favorite mood-altering chemical of choice remains caffeine.

[Mandrel]

Does Ambien count?  I love the stuff.  It's been a godsend for me.  Or do we have to be having "Ambien Sex" like Tiger Woods to talk about it?

[Merusk]

I'm so boring.  I hate taking Tylenol, much less a single gram of anything y'all have mentioned.   I think the last drug I took was the antibiotics to get rid of a sinus infection 3 years ago.

Though I was on Theo-Dur Sprinkle and Dimetapp Elixir from the age of 10 to 15 (when Dimetapp still required a prescription).  Developmental asthma is a bitch.

[Arnold]

I'm so boring.

You are not boring, you are healthy.

A few years back, my parents were changing health insurance companies.  Their new rep called them to let them know they failed to fill out part of the application.  They were like, "WTF, we filled out the whole thing!"  Rep said they didn't list the meds they were taking and my parents weren't on any.

It is a sad state of affairs that were are considered to be in error when we fail to list medications we are not taking, even if we really are not taking them.

[Fordel]

I think the strongest pain-killer I've ever taken was a Tylenol 3 after I had my wisdom teeth out. I have no idea what is in a Tylenol 3, but they worked real good!  


Well, I guess the stuff they used to put me under for the actual removal of said wisdom teeth was undoubtedly stronger. Also whatever my Dentist injects into my mouth before drilling a cavity, that's probably stronger too.

[Trouble]

I started taking Modafinil recently. It has hailed by some as a miracle drug. Its primary effect is to make your brain not feel the feeling of "tired". It does so without feeling like a stimulant...we're not even talking meth here, it's more subtle than caffeine. For a lot of people, it helps with motivation in focus. It does so with a very low incidence of side effects and a lack of physiological addiction. It's becoming more and more the replacement for "study drugs" at colleges and whatnot. In the past Adderral and Ritalin were the big ones, but they're both stimulants that have side effects and make you feel strung out and all the good stuff that comes along with taking relatively strong stimulants. My experience with Modafinil has had me feeling more refreshed, sleeping less hours, and getting more done than I ever thought possible.

Almost makes me laugh when I think of Sci-Fi shows like BSG talking about taking "stims" that make you feel like shit when we've already developed pharmaceuticals that you can take and stay up for 40 hours straight and be at 70% of maximum capacity. Yeah, the drug is being used by militaries around the world in situations where people need to stay awake for long periods of time, or can only afford small amounts of rest.

[Trouble]

Hydrocodone is wonderful, while Codeine, even just a little in cough syrup, makes me freak out.  Weird stuff.

Codeine fucks with me hardcore and I will never touch that shit. Makes me delusion. I had some when I broke the shit out of my ankle as a kid and I laid in my bed all night thinking pinballs were bouncing around my room.

Edit: my one experience with Hydrocodone (didn't realize when I first read that one brand name is Vicodin) was after my gastric bypass surgery. Definitely a lot better. Took it, laid in bed for 20 minutes feeling fuzzy, and passed out. Might have been 3 days in the hospital not sleeping due to feeling like shit though. I also had about 8 hours of a morphine drip but I stopped that on my own volition.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Tylenol 3 is Codein + tylenol.  Hydrocodone is basically artificial codein + tylenol I think - though I could be wrong.  Weird how a lot of people react so differently to the two though.

I hate taking meds.  I just hate the effects of not taking meds even more.  Like post-surgical pain, extreme allergies up to and including anaphylactic shock, and strokes or aneurisms and death.  They all pretty much suck more than the meds do.  I have to remind myself of that every single day or I wouldn't take any anymore.

[Jimbo]

Right now, there is a big debate on pain control vs over use/misuse of prescription pain medicine.

On one side you want people to be out of pain and able to function (or at least able to function with the pain level @ a tolerable level), while another group feels that you give enough till they shut up on the pain (I have to wake patients up, do a pain check, and they tell me they are sleeping with a "10" on a 0 to 10 scale...) even if they end up on a respirator.

I hear and read case studies about how "pain is undiagnosed, untreated, and under-treated", yet then I deal with a shit ton of overdoses on prescription meds & the DEA & FDA all up in arms on how it is being misused.

I have people who break there legs, hips, and/or arms and refuse narcotics (they tend to be older people or ex-junkies), and I grimace on how they look and feel, but no amount of teaching and empathy will get them to take it.  Then you have the ones screaming and hollering for pain meds as soon as they walk in (hell sometimes in the parking lot when I go wheel them in).  I think that our pediatric population probably suffers the most lack of care in acute and chronic pain control, some doc's get it, but most don't.

A middle ground, with some better tracking would serve the patients better.  Get the patient out of pain and able to function, of course this isn't a one-stop one-pill thing, it will take a lot of visits and multiple professions.  A tracking system with EMR (oh yeah we still ain't got it yet...) would be awesome, as you could see if the patient was legit vs scamming.  We have a system in Indiana, where if you go to a pharmacy and get a prescription for II, III, IV, or V class of drug, it is logged.  It tells when it was given and how many and who/where it was prescribed.  It is great to check, as all ages and walks of life try and play us for the patsy.  The bad apple's make it rotten for the patients who need the medicine.  And I wish people wouldn't freaking drive while taking medicine that says DO NOT DRIVE WHILE TAKING THIS MEDICINE.

I was watching some channel on cable (current TV) called "the Oxycontin express" which shows how bad it can get, but then you get other doctors that are scared to give more than acetaminophen (Tylenol) to them.

Of course I'm biased on acute/emergent treatments and the medicines that go with it.

I hope you are feeling and doing better Lanty.  Getting sick sucks.

[Nerf]

I started taking Modafinil recently. It has hailed by some as a miracle drug. Its primary effect is to make your brain not feel the feeling of "tired". It does so without feeling like a stimulant...we're not even talking meth here, it's more subtle than caffeine. For a lot of people, it helps with motivation in focus. It does so with a very low incidence of side effects and a lack of physiological addiction. It's becoming more and more the replacement for "study drugs" at colleges and whatnot. In the past Adderral and Ritalin were the big ones, but they're both stimulants that have side effects and make you feel strung out and all the good stuff that comes along with taking relatively strong stimulants. My experience with Modafinil has had me feeling more refreshed, sleeping less hours, and getting more done than I ever thought possible.

Almost makes me laugh when I think of Sci-Fi shows like BSG talking about taking "stims" that make you feel like shit when we've already developed pharmaceuticals that you can take and stay up for 40 hours straight and be at 70% of maximum capacity. Yeah, the drug is being used by militaries around the world in situations where people need to stay awake for long periods of time, or can only afford small amounts of rest.

What kind of doc do I need to see to get some of this stuff? I have serious focus issues and I'm starting back to school in a few weeks - I'm guessing my allergist can't prescribe this stuff.

[Jimbo]

Tylenol or Acetaminophen or Paracetamol are the same drug, it "is in a class of medications called analgesics (pain relievers) and antipyretics (fever reducers). It works by changing the way the body senses pain and by cooling the body." (They need to add non-narcotic)  You can get it over the counter in damn near every country, in regular (325mg tabs) or extra strength (500mg) and the dose is 2 tabs (650mg or 1000mg) and usually can take up to 4 times a day (max dose is 4000mg a day, but if you drink, only 2000mg a day).  This drug is very effective and used in combination products, where they put acetaminophen in with another drug to make a synergistic effect creating better relief.  One of the worst drugs ever to overdose one!!!  Liver failure is fatal or if it doesn't will make you wish you had!

Codeine (INN) or methylmorphine is an opiate used for its analgesic, antitussive, and antidiarrheal properties, first made in France back in 1832.  It is usually a prescription drug, meaning you can't go and get it without a doctor's Rx, but some countries still sell it over the counter.  Dose is usually 10mg to 60mg, max is 360mg a day.  It is not as strong as morphine, as 200mg of codeine would equal 30mg of morphine, but if you need that much codeine, they put you on a different medicine.  Codeine is famous for making you nauseated, constipated, sleepy, and decreasing your sex drive.  It can give you a euphoric effect that narcotics give, hence the potential for abuse, and with misuse and abuse can lead to tolerance, hence more drug needed, which can lead to respiratory depression, which means you stop breathing and die.

Hydrocodone Hydrocodone or dihydrocodeinone is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from either of two naturally occurring opiates, codeine and thebaine. Hydrocodone is an orally active narcotic analgesic (pain reliever) and antitussive (cough suppressant).  In the US is always mixed with either acetaminophen (Vicodin-- hydrocodone & acetaminophen) or ibuprofen (Vicoprofen--hydrocodone & ibuprofen), it has many names for these combination drugs.  Some are: Vicodin, Hydrococet, Symtan, Anexsia, Damason-P, Dicodid, Hycodan (or generically Hydromet), Hycomine, Hycet, Lorcet, Lortab, Norco, Novahistex, Hydrovo, Duodin, Kolikodol, Orthoxycol, Panacet, Zydone, Mercodinone, Synkonin, Norgan, Xodol and Hydrokon.  Either way they usually are hydrocodone and acetaminophen.  The does varies, but usually 5mg hydrocodone/325mg acetaminophen, 7.5mg/750mg acetaminophen, and 10mg/500mg acetaminophen are common Vicoden strengths, no more than 8 tabs a day of the 5mg, no more than 6 of the 7.5 or 10mg's tablets, and no more than 4000mg total acetaminophen.  Same thing as codeine, except it is six time stronger than codeine (where the VI on the tabs comes from).  Once again it can screw you up, make you not able to screw, and then let you die passed out.  But most of the time you blow out your liver and end up wishing you had died.

Tylenol products (acetaminophen & another drug), Tylenol is also sold as a class of stronger pain relievers containing codeine, known as co-codamols: Tylenol 1 contains 325 mg acetaminophen and 8 mg codeine; Tylenol 2 contains 300 mg/15 mg, Tylenol 3 (300 mg/30 mg),Tylenol 4 (300 mg/60 mg, and Tylenol 5 (300 mg/90 mg). In Canada, Tylenol 1, 2 and 3 all include 15 mg caffeine, in addition to the above ingredients; furthermore, Tylenol 1 is sold in Canada without a prescription, while all forms of Tylenol with codeine require a prescription in the US.  "T#3" tends to be the most common for adults in the US since it has the effective dosage available of codeine and acetaminophen.

I can't stress again how bad Tylenol can be if you take to much, the pain that the patient and family can experience is insane and is probably the worst way to die.

[schild]

Modafinil is amazing.

[apocrypha]

I spent a long time on co-codamol (30mg codeine/500mg acetaminophen) for my back and you do indeed build up a resistance to the codeine effects fairly quickly. First 3 months or so I had problems with constipation. Wasn't sure about the sex drive since I wasn't physically capable of sex anyway.

Interestingly, in the UK, supermarkets now restrict you to buying 1 packet of painkillers containing paracetamol (acetaminophen) at a time - usually 16 x 500mg tablets. I've read that since this policy was implemented paracetamol overdoses have decreased significantly here. It's been a pain in the arse for me since the supermarket we use is slack with their product coding and their checkouts consider ALL painkillers to fall under this umbrella, hence I've been unable to purchase a packet of ibuprofen and a packet of paracetamol at the same time and have had to queue for 10-15 mins at the pharmacy counter every time. In the end I just got my GP to prescribe me enormous boxes of paracetamol & ibuprofen, much easier. Had to convince them I wasn't a potential suicide risk but given the assortment of other drugs they were already prescribing me (valium, cocodamol, tramadol) that wasn't difficult.

Totally agree with you Lant, tramadol is a horrible drug. I only had to use it for a short time when I was really bad and it was very effective, but vile side effects. Same with morphine, although I only had that in hospital, not nice at all. All in all I am very glad that we have such a good range of painkillers available to us these days but I'm also quite glad to be needing far less powerful ones, and far less frequently than I have had to use in recent years.

Now, if we wanna have some kind of discussion about recreational drugs then I'll join in that one too... had probably far too much experience of them too 

[Fordel]

In Canada, Tylenol 1, 2 and 3 all include 15 mg caffeine

Why is that! Just to counter some of the sleepyness?





When it comes to medicine, I just do what my Doctor says. If my Doctor prescribes me X number of antibiotics to take and says "take all of these as prescribed, even if you start to feel better before then" then I will.


If it's something like "take these for pain as you feel the need" then I usually try to tough it out first, but I'm also not afraid of following the dosage given to me as available either. 

[apocrypha]

If my Doctor prescribes me X number of antibiotics to take and says "take all of these as prescribed, even if you start to feel better before then" then I will.

If more people actually did this (i.e. complete their courses of antibiotics even if they get better before the end) then we'd have far fewer problems with drug-resistant bacteria!

[Minvaren]

I have bad teeth - combination of genetics and being sick a lot as a kid.  Therefore I've had a LOT of dental work done over the years.

Tylenol (OTC) got me through most of it, to the shock of the dentists doing the work.  When that didn't work, darvocet for a day or two did the trick.  However, I took a prescription for hydrocodone once just to see what the big deal was about it.  I noticed that I was giggly and loopy when taking it, but the pain was still hanging around - I just didn't notice it as much.  Also the stomach issues as some others have mentioned.

Now, if we wanna have some kind of discussion about recreational drugs then I'll join in that one too... had probably far too much experience of them too 

Seconded...  And maybe we can get Nebu to make the class some samples.   

[Merusk]

Right now, there is a big debate on pain control vs over use/misuse of prescription pain medicine
<pain stuff>

I think a pain discussion might make an interesting thread all its own.  Folks' brains interpret the signals differently, combined with previous exposure history leading to so many varied responses.

[Mattemeo]

Thanks to a lifelong renal problem, I can't take aspirin, which is an annoyance to get around, and paracetamol on its own does nothing for me; I pretty much have to keep a small stock of ibuprofen and cocodemol (paracetamol and codeine phosphate hemihydrate blend). Cocodemol is wonderful stuff and I'm eternally grateful it's still available over the counter in the UK, but even that struggles with serious tooth pain and migraines.
On the other hand, I did get ridiculously high recently when a friend rolled a cheeky joint for me (I don't smoke cigarettes and or get much of a sniff of cannabis these days, so it's a rare treat) and we shared it till my lungs couldn't take any more. It wasn't even particularly strong stuff but combined with the 20mg codeine courtesy of the 2 cocodemol I'd forgotten I'd taken half an hour beforehand, it put me on my ass.

[Mattemeo]

I'm allergic to every tree, grass and weed in my yard, dust and dust mites, my cat, mold & mildew, etc, etc & etc.  Allegra once a day means I can breathe without wheezing, see without my eyes being puffy red, weepy and itchy, and basically live without trying to scratch my own skin off.  Better living through chemistry!

I'm going to have to look up on Allegra to see if/where it's available in the UK. I suffer pretty much every allergy you've listed (tri-seasonal hayfever is fun!) and take Loratadine between late April and early October to combat the worst of it but the sideeffects can pile up, I haven't slept much in the last week and I've been in a mild state of anxiety for months now. I need an (non-drowsy) alternative and Allegra looks like it might be a winner, if I can get hold of it.

[Minvaren]

Are you taking the straight or decongestant version of Loratadine?  Anything with pseudoephedrine in it will contribute to insomnia/anxiety, plus makes you jump through hoops trying to actually purchase it in the US.

And the hoops are set up so you cannot actually purchase a 15-pack of 24-hour Claritin-D every 15 days...   So it's either skip one day per week, or rotate between stores to accomodate the "limt..."     Almost makes one feel like a criminal to have allergies.

[SnakeCharmer]

Chlor-Trimeton has worked wonders for some of my nasal allergy stuff.  Takes a couple days to really start feeling the effects, but for 3 bucks a bottle, I'm not complaining.

[Mattemeo]

Are you taking the straight or decongestant version of Loratadine?  Anything with pseudoephedrine in it will contribute to insomnia/anxiety, plus makes you jump through hoops trying to actually purchase it in the US.

And the hoops are set up so you cannot actually purchase a 15-pack of 24-hour Claritin-D every 15 days...   So it's either skip one day per week, or rotate between stores to accomodate the "limt..."     Almost makes one feel like a criminal to have allergies.

Haha, wow. That's... not terribly useful. How odd. Anyway, no, the loratadine I take doesn't have psuedoephedrine in it as far as I can tell, though it does have lactose monohydrate in it, which isn't helpful since I'm lactose intollerant. But mild stomach upsets aside, I'd rather have a clear head and breathe easily than worry too much about that.

[Jimbo]

Singulair Montelukast is a pretty good allergy drug, which is a "leukotriene receptor antagonist (LTRA) used for the maintenance treatment of asthma and to relieve symptoms of seasonal allergies."  It is Rx only in the US, works pretty good on controlling seasonal allergies for both my son & I.  We used a combination of Singulair and Nasonex.  It worked wonders, we had been in New Mexico in the desert and I had lost my build up to the trees, grasses, wetness, and crap that the Midwest (Indiana) can throw @ us, so both of us would get miserable around fall and spring.  We don't have to use it much anymore, but if your body has trouble adapting to its environment it can be a godsend.

Nasonex (Mometasone Nasal Inhalation) is a "nasal inhalation is used for the treatment and prevention of nasal symptoms of seasonal and year-round allergies, including runny nose, sneezing, and itchy nose. Mometasone nasal inhalation is in a class of medications called topical steroids. It works by reducing inflammation (swelling) in the nasal passages."

Allegra & Claritin are both a form of antihistamines, which help reduce the swelling by inhibiting actions of histamine via histamine receptors.  They are supposed to not make you drowsy, but looking @ Claritin and how it is closely structurally related to tricyclic antidepressants, makes you wonder why it doesn't cause more problems.  Allegra is supposed to be less drowsy than 1st generation antihistamines by not crossing the blood-brain barrier as easy as they do.  Claritin -D has pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) which is a wonderful nasal/sinus decongestant, but that same pill can be used as a stimulant or wakefulness-promoting agent.  Thus the side effect can be sleepiness, nervousness, excitability, dizziness and anxiety.  That could be the cause of not feeling well while taking that medicine.

Sudafed or Pseudoephedrine (PSE) is a sympathomimetic drug of the phenethylamine and amphetamine chemical classes. It is used as a nasal/sinus decongestant and stimulant, or as a wakefulness-promoting agent.  Problem is that the little fuckers came up with Methamphetamine from it, and they way the "cook it" is freaking insane!

Making Home Made METH or Methamphetamine
  Lithium-Ammonia Reduction

The Lithium-Ammonia Reduction is a method derived from a reaction called “The Birch Reduction“. This method involves the use of Anhydrous Ammonia, a particularly nasty chemical, mixed with lithium. Various solvents and sodium hydroxide are used in this method. Commonly referred to as “The nazi method”, in reference to the german soldiers that reportedly manufactured it for their own use during WWII, when military supplies were not forthcoming. “One pot method”, or “Shake and bake” methods are derivatives of the original formula, using ammonium nitrate in place of anhydrous ammonia. This method produces a crystal with less impurities than syntheses utilizing red phosphorus, as well as being higher yeilding.

Hydroiodic Acid/Red Phosphorus Method

The Hydroiodic Acid/Red Phosphorus Method (and derivatives) is often referred to as “the matchbook method”, in reference to matchbooks being the source of red phosphorus in this reaction. This reaction utilizes sodium hydroxide (lye), iodine, and red phosphorus to produce methamphetamine.
And if you ever have been to a drug lab bust or clean up, you wonder how they don't blow themselves up more often.  Some states have a registration of how much sudafed you buy, some don't, or the manufactures changed the make up of it (which doesn't work as well on the type I've had).  Some Law Enforcement officials are advocating making it Rx only, which sucks but I see why they are doing it (cookers are getting around it by going to stores that don't check or sending out multiple people to buy sudafed).  This drug is insanely euphoric, and can last a long time (one hit last hours not minutes), and cheap to make, thus causing many to fall into the addiction cycle and destroy themselves.

I must state that since Indiana went to drivers license scanning for all purchases (and it being sold in only certain stores), it has cut down the amount of meth lab production considerably.  We used to have people blowing themselves up weekly, now it is 1 or 2 a year.  The Meth is still there, as now they grow pot and trade it for "Mexican Red" Meth.

[Arnold]

I have bad teeth - combination of genetics and being sick a lot as a kid.

Chances are, your bad teeth are not to blame on genetics.  Would you like me to give you another reason to hate your parents?  http://westonaprice.org/home-mainmenu-1.html.

Weston Price was a dentist who wrote a book called "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" which illustrates the difference in physical structure of those who were raised on a traditional, unprocessed diet, versus those who were raised on a western diet that is high in sugar and processed food.

tldr if you have a horse face or a fish face or fucked up teeth, you can blame the diet your parents fed you.

Edit: oh yeah I forgot about rat faces too.