The kb+mouse vs controller war gets more fuel...

[WayAbvPar]

Actually, I would argue that mental aspects of combat like situational awareness, target/threat recognition, etc might translate to some degree. The actual pointing and shooting, not so much.

[tgr]

The difference is that the purpose of a racing wheel or a guitar-shaped controller is to make the game seem more realistic, not to make you better at it.

I'm sorry, but that's pure bullshit. A racing wheel doesn't just make it seem more realistic, it also makes you a better driver to boot simply because you get so much more feedback about what the car is doing. That is, as long as you're not driving a complete shit racing game.

If you want an equal experience, put down the Xbox controller and go play your FPS games on the Wii with one of these.

If that isn't fiddly, doesn't get straining after a few hours' gaming, and has enough buttons to facilitate the common FPS actions like switching items, activating items, leaning, strafing etc etc etc, then that would be absolutely fine with me. All I ask for is a way to play FPS games that isn't inherently frustrating.

I very much doubt it isn't a complete suck-fest after a few hours, but if it had even a modicum of a chance to improve on the pad, I'd happily try it. But I'm not buying a wii for the privilege, I already feel like I have one console too many as it is, and I was given this one as a present.

[Rendakor]

Racing wheels do not give you feedback to make you better at racing games; they give you feedback so that the experience feels more authentic.

Using a controller to play an FPS isn't "inherently frustrating."  You just hate it because you're used to something else; if it was fundamentally wrong we would never have heard of Goldeneye, or Halo.

Fuck, I'm so tired of having this stupid argument.

[Kageru]

Using a controller to play and FPS isn't "inherently frustrating" because the games are doing most of the aiming for you. Was watching someone playing crackdown and explaining that doing a head shot involves allowing the game to auto-target them and then hitting "pad up" before you shoot. Meanwhile I'm just wondering where the fun is in that. Then again crackdown is a fairly silly game.

And any interface tool that gives you better precision and feedback is going to give you an in game advantage. Racing wheels versus pads in racing games and KB+M in fps though one of these is allowed and the other forbidden.

I don't really care too much though. The dominant mode for consoles is slacking on the sofa for which the pad is eminently well suited, and familiar, so even if the interface is sub-optimal it is fine as long as it is consistent. Though if there was a serious competition how they are going to prove someone isn't using a KB+M is beyond me. I thought most of the dead serious competitive FPS cultures were PC centric anyway (Counterstrike, Quake).

(Incidentally I also wouldn't really use a KB, the PC gamepads like the fang are good stuff for gaming.)

[Strazos]

A wheel is also more precise than an analog stick...hence, makes you better.

[Viin]

A wheel is also more precise than an analog stick...hence, makes you better.

personally, I prefer a blowjob while playing - controller or mouse+kb, doesn't matter - it makes me better.

[Fordel]

Does the Keyboard itself convey an advantage, or is it just the obvious mouse properties and the keyboard being a default pairing?

[Samwise]

Does the Keyboard itself convey an advantage, or is it just the obvious mouse properties and the keyboard being a default pairing?

The mouse conveys a huge advantage for the functions it can execute.  A keyboard in and of itself isn't a huge advantage over a gamepad except that you can use one (or a subset of one) far more easily than you can use half of a gamepad with one hand, and do a lot more with it to make up for the relatively small number of discrete inputs on the mouse. 

While playing TF2 I routinely use about 20 different keyboard keys (6 for movement, 5 for weapon switching, 5 for communication, plus a few more), fairly evenly distributed between five fingers of one hand.  One side of a PS3 controller has something like 16 different inputs if you count the analog stick as having 8 positions, with all but 3 of those are controlled by one digit.

[jakonovski]

If we only use the performance metric, kb+m is vastly superior for Guitar Hero too. it's so much easier to just pound asdfg instead of those horrid fret buttons.

[tgr]

Racing wheels do not give you feedback to make you better at racing games; they give you feedback so that the experience feels more authentic.

I don't know how it is when you play racing games (or even what you call "racing games"), but when I play racing games like Grand Prix Legends, Live for Speed, Richard Burns Rally, Nascar Racing 2003 etc etc etc, FF racing wheels let me feel exactly where the limits of grip is, which again enables me to push harder than I would if I were to play with a joystick, keyboard, pad, or whatever. Hell, even switching FF off slows me down by a few tenths because I'm not getting as much information about what the car's doing when I'm on the edge.

So yes, it does indeed make me better at racing games.

Using a controller to play an FPS isn't "inherently frustrating."   You just hate it because you're used to something else; if it was fundamentally wrong we would never have heard of Goldeneye, or Halo.

Notice how I didn't specify that a controller was inherently frustrating. I'm saying the pad is inherently frustrating because it's a slow interface, being used somewhere speed and agility is more or less required. The only way I can even consider playing FPS games on consoles is if it has aids like autoaim or (in Mirror's Edge, a button to flip me around 180 degrees). I made the mistake of playing GRAW on the 360, and it was a horrid experience because it had absolutely no aids at all.

I don't really care if kids these days think of the pad as good enough, because I'm not them. I've seen how much better kb/m is for FPS/RTS/etc, and I don't really want to sit in my sofa while playing since I have a stressless I use at my desk instead. But honestly I would be more than happy to let consolers keep their pad-using ways since it's their gaming time, except for the fact the complete lack of alternatives is now causing the pad-dictated interfaces to infect games I might want to play with unnecessary and annoying mechanics.

Fuck, I'm so tired of having this stupid argument.

It's stupid because it shouldn't have had reason to exist in the first place.

[Mosesandstick]

Racing wheels generally make you 'better' because they're more realistic. They go hand in hand. They're also bloody expensive and gamepads do a good enough job that many of us can enjoy racing games without them even if we'd prefer to have a wheel. It's nice to have options.

More and more fpses are designed so that you don't need a kb+m. Obvious examples being games like the Halo series. The gamepad is good enough if you can sit down and enjoy the game you're playing. I prefer to play my FPSes on a PC, apparently a lot more people prefer the gamepad sitting comfortably on the couch. There's a bigger audience than me and I may not be happy about it but I'm sure as hell not going to bitch.

[TripleDES]

Racing? With a pad? That surely won't be a very realistic racing, the only controller I would even consider for racing would be a racing wheel, and I would still whine and moan like a little bitch if it didn't have force feedback.

Not sure if this is implied to be green or what.

But most "racing" games don't need wheels. What most people understand under that term is shit like NFS, DiRT and GRID. They play terrible with a wheel. I've tried and it fucking sucks. Now if fucking LFS development wouldn't have stalled...  

The difference is that the purpose of a racing wheel or a guitar-shaped controller is to make the game seem more realistic, not to make you better at it.

Depending on the simulation realism, it actually does make you better. Gran Turismo would probably work better with a wheel than DiRT.

[Bill]

There is no argument here, surely?

Racing games are better with a wheel, most RTS and simulation games are better with a keyboard and mouse, you might argue FPS games are too, but really it's down to implementation.

What frustrates me about input in games is the lack of innovation in some genres, specifically games with a lot of melee combat. Games like Skate and Fight Night Round 4, even FIFA - using the analogue sticks to control some actions and the result feels natural but Oblivion, Fable etc... action RPG control systems mostly suck.

But this is another topic which will go around in circles: these days I almost prefer my 360 pad for some FPS games simply because of the convenience of things like grenade, weapon switch and melee buttons. But shit, TF2 on console? Hell no.

As a side note I've found that with some tweaking DIRT2 plays great with the MS 360 wheel, NFS and GRID, not so much. Forza meanwhile...  

[Malakili]

But this is another topic which will go around in circles: these days I almost prefer my 360 pad for some FPS games simply because of the convenience of things like grenade, weapon switch and melee buttons. But shit, TF2 on console? Hell no.

Well this speaks to another thing, which is that most games play best with the input device they were designed for.  There are exceptions of course, but when Halo is designed for a controller, the translation to keyboard always feels a little awkward, even though you can still aim better.   Some other good examples of this might be something like Borderlands.

That being said, aiming with a control stick is the most sluggish awkward feeling thing of them all for me, where as with a mouse is fast, smooth and precise, I can understand someone who never really played computer games being better with a control stick than a mouse, and I think thats where a lot of the argument comes from. "Hey, I'm better with a controller than mouse, so controllers aren't that bad" but thats poor reasoning, I'm better driving automatic than standard, but it doesn't mean than standard doesn't offer you better control if you are good at it.

[Azazel]

The first FPS games I played were on the PS1 - Medal of Honor. On the old whatever-dualshock-was-called-then controllers. I got pretty good at it. Also, Goldeneye.
During this era, I tried to play HL1 and the original AVP (I think?) on my nephew's PC, but I couldn't do it properly.

I got a Mac at some stage in the late 1990s (97?) and got Quake 1 on it. I wasn't very good, but hey.

Later I got a PC (for EverQuest!), and got into FPS on it. Was then unable to play with thumbsticks. And let's face it - with Halo apparently the best thing going, why would I care? Or maybe the first Killzone? Point still stands, though I did go out and buy those adapter things to allow M+KB to be used on both my XBox and PS2. Thing was, that it was so fucking awkward to do so in my lounge room, that the only time I used either was when I got them to make sure they worked (they did) and then due to this, having a 58cm tv, and the fact that Halo and KZ were the top of the game, I never used them again.

More recently, in the last year, I've played a few FPS games on the 360, because sometimes sitting on my arse with a controller at the big TV is just easier than hunched intently over the keyboard. Borderlands not running on my wife's PC was the final impetus/straw, so Borderlands on 360 it was, then!

Now I'm still decently good at most games on the PC, and also competent on the 360 with the controller. Win!

[Paelos]

The first time I tried to play Halo with people was at some party, and they tried to show me the controls. I tried to play for about 5 minutes, and just handed it back. I asked one of them, "How can you put up with this?" And he just blankly stared at me.   Simply put, most of them have zero freaking clue what's out there, nor do they care that there are infinitely easier ways to control fps games.

[Dtrain]

There is an adjustment period, but it's very natural for me. I set a thin book about 9x12 on a firm bed pillow next to me, that's my 'mouse pad'. Keyboard just goes in my lap, never felt the need for a table or tray or whatever. I do have a coffee table with a horizontal wood strip under it that I can rest my feet on.

Only problem is when the cat wants to sleep on the pillow. TF2 in 3D at 1080p and 65" is pretty awesome. And comfy.

I slouch down, though. My butt is basically at the edge of the sofa and I sink down into the cushions. So I get support from the elbow down.

Whoever makes a k/m controller and puts these glowing testimonials on the box is guaranteed to win the console wars!

[Bunk]

There is an adjustment period, but it's very natural for me. I set a thin book about 9x12 on a firm bed pillow next to me, that's my 'mouse pad'. Keyboard just goes in my lap, never felt the need for a table or tray or whatever. I do have a coffee table with a horizontal wood strip under it that I can rest my feet on.

Only problem is when the cat wants to sleep on the pillow. TF2 in 3D at 1080p and 65" is pretty awesome. And comfy.

I slouch down, though. My butt is basically at the edge of the sofa and I sink down into the cushions. So I get support from the elbow down.

If you can come up with a system that works ergonomically, it's totally worth it. I've tried the slouch in the couch approach and it unfortunately totally killed my back.

My current setup is a 50" projection sitting on an old desk. I sit in my reclined office chair about 5 feet away, with the mouse pad on a tvdinner table beside my chair (fully supports my whole arm), and the keyboard on my lap.

Whoever makes a k/m controller and puts these glowing testimonials on the box is guaranteed to win the console wars!

[Rendakor]

Notice how I didn't specify that a controller was inherently frustrating. I'm saying the pad is inherently frustrating because it's a slow interface, being used somewhere speed and agility is more or less required. The only way I can even consider playing FPS games on consoles is if it has aids like autoaim or (in Mirror's Edge, a button to flip me around 180 degrees). I made the mistake of playing GRAW on the 360, and it was a horrid experience because it had absolutely no aids at all.

What do you mean when you say "the pad"? Do you actually try to play FPS games using the directional buttons instead of the analog sticks? I just assumed you were shortening "paddle" and meant controller, but if you're trying to move with the d-pad of course you hate consoles. You're playing them wrong.

[Samwise]

The same applies to analog sticks.  Look at the time it takes to turn in a complete circle in a console FPS using the analog stick (absent nice shortcuts like in Mirror's Edge).  Now compare to the same action on a PC with a mouse.  Now consider that turning around and shooting at something behind you is something that you'll usually want to do as quickly as possible.  It's not quite as bad if you just need to turn a little bit, but that mouse is always going to be faster because it matches the movement of your hand instantaneously, rather than having you point in a direction and wait for it to get where you want it to go.  That's what he means by "slow".

[Rendakor]

If you play on max sensitivity it actually turns pretty damn fast in most modern shooters (MW2 specifically comes to mind).

[NowhereMan]

As far as I can tell the pad has the advantage over kb/m that it is much easier to comfortably play while sitting on the sofa, aside from that it's pretty much worse in every way and requires games to be designed to get around the deficiencies. I can kind of see the argument that if you were to have kb/m for consoles it would mean anyone with a gamepad would get destroyed in on-line play, thus resulting in everyone who cared getting the kb/m and probably ending up having to get some sort of desk which would kill the casual 'pick up and play' factor. Frankly I think they could just release it as a set with some sort of sofa support thing and use some slimmed down keyboard/pad thing. I don't like playing with pads and it pretty much kills any console FPS for me, which is doubly annoying because the mechanics are normally set up for pads now so they don't play as well on a PC and even the ports aren't that great.

fakeedit: The problem with it turning really fast is that it becomes really difficult to get very precise with the movement, mouse control quickly becomes quite natural but if the analogue stick is set to some massive sensitivity a slight touch can find you turning 30* when you just wanted to edge to the left a little. Admittedly auto-aiming does a bit to correct this but I don't want auto-aiming in my game when I could just use a mouse to do things far more naturally.

[tgr]

What do you mean when you say "the pad"? Do you actually try to play FPS games using the directional buttons instead of the analog sticks? I just assumed you were shortening "paddle" and meant controller, but if you're trying to move with the d-pad of course you hate consoles. You're playing them wrong.

Um. Please give me at least some credit. Of course I mean "the controller", or as some call it, "the gamepad". Aka "the pad". Just because I don't like your controller doesn't mean I'm stupid.

If you play on max sensitivity it actually turns pretty damn fast in most modern shooters (MW2 specifically comes to mind).

This may be so, but it's still not nearly as accurate as I am with a mouse.

And you're still missing my main point. So be it.

[Rendakor]

The reason that they don't support kb+m for console games is simply that you guys who prefer it are a minority. Otherwise, PC sales would be beating console sales and catering to your crowd would be smart, financially. However since PC gamers are only a small portion of FPS players, there's no financial incentive for the devs to support kb+m. It'd piss off their loyal base because they'd suddenly be getting roflstomped, while not bringing in a significant number of new sales.

I sympathize with the fact that even the PC games are feeling the impact, but again this is because the PC version is an afterthought or a port due to low sales.


Fakeedit: tgr, I was giving you credit. Then you said "Notice how I didn't specify that a controller was inherently frustrating. I'm saying the pad is inherently frustrating" which made me think that we weren't talking about the same thing.

[Malakili]

If you play on max sensitivity it actually turns pretty damn fast in most modern shooters (MW2 specifically comes to mind).

Its the way the mechanic works that is different though.  The mouse (assuming you are not using mouse smoothing, and I literally know no one who prefers it) has a constant sensitivity.  With a stick how fast you aim depends on how far you push the stick, its just terrible inconsistent.

[Morat20]

If you play on max sensitivity it actually turns pretty damn fast in most modern shooters (MW2 specifically comes to mind).

Its the way the mechanic works that is different though.  The mouse (assuming you are not using mouse smoothing, and I literally know no one who prefers it) has a constant sensitivity.  With a stick how fast you aim depends on how far you push the stick, its just terrible inconsistent.

L4D2 does a 360 quite fast. Of course, it maps a 180 to the left shoulder button. A rather useful choice, given the way the game plays. (You're likely to get hammered from behind, all the goddamn time).

[WayAbvPar]

The first time I tried to play Halo with people was at some party, and they tried to show me the controls. I tried to play for about 5 minutes, and just handed it back. I asked one of them, "How can you put up with this?" And he just blankly stared at me.   Simply put, most of them have zero freaking clue what's out there, nor do they care that there are infinitely easier ways to control fps games.

I had a similar experience. My wife bought me an Xbox for my birthday when Halo was just becoming a phenomenon. I had a few friends over for drinks, and they bought me controllers and Halo for my birthday. I had been playing FPS for years, and was really excited to try Halo out, since it had heard so much about it, and my buddy played it constantly. I played for maybe 30 minutes, then told them it was completely unplayable due to the horrific controls. Never played it again. Tried again when GTA IV came out...it was fine for the single player game, but for MP it was just absolutely frustrating.

People prefer consoles because of the low price for entry, the social gaming aspects (being able to play with friends in the same room is a lot of fun), and the ability to play while lounging around. They do not prefer consoles because they have a better system for controls (FPS). If you truly believe that is the reason, you are delusional.

[jakonovski]

As someone who regularly teaches computer basics to people of wildly varying backgrounds, I find it rather laughable that because you weren't able to get comfortable with a new controller device in a single sitting, it has to be crap. People who have never used a mouse often have trouble even clicking on icons accurately, never mind double clicking. Does that invalidate kb+m?


 

[Musashi]

It's crap because it's crap.  He could have sat there for ten years mastering it, but he knew better.

[WayAbvPar]

As someone who regularly teaches computer basics to people of wildly varying backgrounds, I find it rather laughable that because you weren't able to get comfortable with a new controller device in a single sitting, it has to be crap. People who have never used a mouse often have trouble even clicking on icons accurately, never mind double clicking. Does that invalidate kb+m?
 

Does your family have a controller factory or something? Jesus. Read my post again. I had played many FPSs in the past with a suitable control system. I knew using an X-Box controller was utterly substandard compared to what I have used in the past, and further realized that I would derive no enjoyment from the game fighting the controls while knowing there is a much better way to it.

Last word of my previous post pretty much sums you up.

[Malakili]

Does that invalidate kb+m?


 

It would if there were an easier, already established and widely used different method that was significantly more efficient.

[Paelos]

As someone who regularly teaches computer basics to people of wildly varying backgrounds, I find it rather laughable that because you weren't able to get comfortable with a new controller device in a single sitting, it has to be crap. People who have never used a mouse often have trouble even clicking on icons accurately, never mind double clicking. Does that invalidate kb+m?

I played Goldeneye until my fingers practically bled because I didn't drink in high school. Me and the boys would get together at somebody's house and play that game all night, every weekend. I had no problem with the controller then, and I was good at it. That is until I started playing FPS on the computer. At that point, I'd done my time on the gamepad, so when HALO came out, I was like, "Wow, let's take a glorious step backwards to the olden days!"

Could I have become fine at the game? Certainly, but why bother? It's like mowing the lawn with a push mower all your childhood days without knowing they made riding ones.

[Segoris]

The last controller that was good for fps on consoles was the nes zapper.

I played Goldeneye until my fingers practically bled because I didn't drink in high school. Me and the boys would get together at somebody's house and play that game all night, every weekend. I had no problem with the controller then, and I was good at it. That is until I started playing FPS on the computer. At that point, I'd done my time on the gamepad, so when HALO came out, I was like, "Wow, let's take a glorious step backwards to the olden days!"

This is me, except I played Goldeneye and used it as a drinking game. That and Wrestlemania Royal Rumble. 30 drinks in a 2-3 min match is fun.

[Samwise]

The last controller that was good for fps on consoles was the nes zapper.

Lightguns are fine for rail shooters, but they still suck for FPSes because they don't solve the turning problem.  You end up needing TWO controllers then that don't naturally sync with one another.

[Segoris]

Agreed, I just keep thinking about the nes zapper, powerglove, and R.O.B. during this whole conversation though and had to post one. That happened to fit the retardation that is this conversation the best.