The kb+mouse vs controller war gets more fuel...

[Surlyboi]

Rahul Sood, founder of Voodoo PC sez MS killed a project that would allow PC gamers to play XBoxer after the PC gamers kicked the shit out of the console jockeys.

There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment. Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their "console" controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.

[Malakili]

Or they could have released a mouse/keyboard combo, sold it with halo as a pack for an extra 50 bucks, and made a fucking ton of money.

[NiX]

Rahul Sood, founder of Voodoo PC sez MS killed a project that would allow PC gamers to play XBoxer after the PC gamers kicked the shit out of the console jockeys.

There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment. Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their "console" controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.

That's an apt description of what happened to Shadowrun.

[MisterNoisy]

Didn't the PC guys kick the shit out of 360 players already in cross-platform play in Shadowrun?

[Malakili]

Didn't the PC guys kick the shit out of 360 players already in cross-platform play in Shadowrun?

I had a guy in a TF2 clan that I was in for a while who insisted on playing with a 360 controller, he didn't get picked for a lot of matches 

Thing was, he did pretty well CONSIDERING, but you don't get points for that in a competitive league.

[Nightblade]

Or they could have released a mouse/keyboard combo, sold it with halo as a pack for an extra 50 bucks, and made a fucking ton of money.

Interestingly enough, there are ways to use a mouse and keyboard with an Xbox 360; though there are complaints about mouse lag.

[sinij]

There is ZERO surprise that console controller is a shitty interface for FPS/RTS or anything but side-scroller it was designed for.

[Nightblade]

There is ZERO surprise that console controller is a shitty interface for FPS/RTS or anything but side-scroller it was designed for.

Or sports games... or 3d platformers... Or shootemups... Or racing... Or...

[Kageru]

Visited a friend whose computer was happily emulating a Xbox controller so I know solutions to this are already out there. With the advantage that you can remap and macro keys as well. Of course this requires you to have two computers (PC and Xbox) which is a bit idiotic but then, that's consoles for you.

I see both controllers have a role though. Lounging on the sofa = console controller, sitting at a desk = PC.... flailing around like a monkey = motion control? And all of them put different pressures on what sort of games you are going to be playing.

[jakonovski]

This comes as no surprise. I could also totally win a round of minigolf if I could use a pool cue, but for some people don't go around spouting that everyone should replace their putters, unlike with the pc/console dick waving contest.

[tgr]

There is ZERO surprise that console controller is a shitty interface for FPS/RTS or anything but side-scroller it was designed for.

Or sports games... or 3d platformers... Or shootemups... Or racing... Or...

Racing? With a pad? That surely won't be a very realistic racing, the only controller I would even consider for racing would be a racing wheel, and I would still whine and moan like a little bitch if it didn't have force feedback.

Having said that, I absolutely love it how shit games (my opinion, bite me) like guitar hero etc get their own custom controller, but FPS games (which used to be my favorite kind, until the consoles started ruining them with their suboptimal controllers) get ... the pad, and that's it. Any hints of keyboard/mouse or equivalent is met with "that would make it too much like a computer" and banned.

[jakonovski]

Racing? With a pad? That surely won't be a very realistic racing, the only controller I would even consider for racing would be a racing wheel, and I would still whine and moan like a little bitch if it didn't have force feedback.

Racing with a pad works just fine, and even better if it's an arcade racer. Such hatred of gamepads is just weird, especially considering tens of millions of gamers have absolutely no problems with one. Face it, a pad is a good way of controlling games for the vast majority of humanity.   

[Vision]

Or most 3rd person action games in general I would say controller. Games like Freedom Force and Gears of War can probably pull it off.
Although I'm probably the only one here who bought MGS2 when it came out for PC...lesson in frustration to say the least. At least my finger dexterity went through the roof while wondering why I was killing myself to play a game whose main character has to change his tampon every 15 minutes.

[tgr]

Racing with a pad works just fine, and even better if it's an arcade racer. Such hatred of gamepads is just weird, especially considering tens of millions of gamers have absolutely no problems with one. Face it, a pad is a good way of controlling games for the vast majority of humanity.

I'll agree that you can probably drive around, maybe even get a bit of speed going, but there are huge limitations which show themselves the instant you go beyond the arcade games like NFS and their ilk. There's absolutely no way of knowing exactly how much grip you have left in your front or rear wheels with a pad, or whether you're over- or understeering, whereas a steering wheel with force feedback does tell you. Additionally, I find it much more rewarding to either pull of a good clean lap in LFS where I get close to the best laptimes out there, or if I pull off a good string of corners in a clean racing way or in a well-controlled drift, than I ever did the few times I tried whatever the NFS crowd was crowing about a few years ago, because all you had to do there was drive very fast, throw the car into the corner and tap a key once in a while to "control the slide".

But at least you can get a racing wheel for people like me who do want to use something more custom-made for the job than a pad. That option does not exist for a large chunk of today's games, most notably FPS/RTS games, and that is probably the most annoying part of the whole thing. Why couldn't they just start making it so that you could play with either pad or keyboard/mouse, and make it so the players could choose if they wanted to be the pad-playing guy on the server if it's a multiplayer game instead of just banning it alltogether?

Or most 3rd person action games in general I would say controller. Games like Freedom Force and Gears of War can probably pull it off.
Although I'm probably the only one here who bought MGS2 when it came out for PC...lesson in frustration to say the least. At least my finger dexterity went through the roof while wondering why I was killing myself to play a game whose main character has to change his tampon every 15 minutes.

Actually, I too bought MGS2 for the PC, and I don't remember anything in particular that annoyed me with that game (except the fact I rushed through the playable areas to get to the next cinematic).

As for 3rd person action games, they can work with a pad, yes. RDR and GTA for example work "fine", but for me that's mostly because they have a good autoaim system which covers over the main problem the pad has. SW:TFU doesn't work very well, but that's because the aiming system works on the basis of where your character is looking instead of where you're looking, and that's thankfully more of a fluke in the gaming world than the norm.

The problem is that this doesn't really just stay on the consoles anymore, it's infecting the PC versions as well. I tried gears of war 2 (I think it was, I forget which version it was) just to see how it was, and I was constantly annoyed with how the game decided to autosnap to some structure. I was also rather annoyed with mass effect 2 for much the same reason, because whenever I wanted to jump over an obstacle, I had to press space to "duck behind" it first, and then press space again to actually jump over it. It's jarring, it ruins the flow, and it all just feels so unnecessary because to me it's a regression from what games on the PC used to be like.

But just to get back to the article, I feel he's missing the mark slightly. I also wish they'd kept it going, but for a different reason. If they'd gone through with this, they would most likely have had to design and release a specialized controller for use with FPS/RTS games (or just allow keyboard/mouse to be used) just so the "hardcore elite" who went online to play competitively had a level playing field. I'm sure MS would be in an even better position than they are now, because people would be able to choose how leisurely they wanted their gaming experience to be. Want to play a racing game with a pad instead of a wheel? sure. Want to recline in the sofa and play an FPS game on the pad? sure, switch on the autoaim and other help aids and go nuts. Want to play hardcore? flip out the "fps controller" and go to town. I would assume this would be a pure win-win, but apparently MS feels differently.

[jakonovski]

I actually do like a wheel better than a pad for sims (ie. Forza3), so I won't bore you with any more hyperbole on that.

Why couldn't they just start making it so that you could play with either pad or keyboard/mouse, and make it so the players could choose if they wanted to be the pad-playing guy on the server if it's a multiplayer game instead of just banning it alltogether?

Because then every competitive console mp fps player would have to sit at a desk with kb+m, and that would be huge marketing fail.

Yes, that means kb+m is easier to aim with than a pad, but that doesn't mean any game is any worse or better just because of that, because no game's purpose is to aim as trivially as possible.

[tgr]

And what makes FPS games special since they have to be "protected" from us evil kb+m players, whereas racing games and guitar hero doesn't? What makes having a steering wheel while driving a racing game less serious than having a kb+m when playing an FPS? It's just an arbitrary and silly restriction which should never have been thought of.

[Malakili]

And what makes FPS games special since they have to be "protected" from us evil kb+m players, whereas racing games and guitar hero doesn't? What makes having a steering wheel while driving a racing game less serious than having a kb+m when playing an FPS? It's just an arbitrary and silly restriction which should never have been thought of.

Fair competition.  FPS more than any other game save RTS really require players to be on similar equipment or else its just not going to be fun for one of the groups (or both, beating up on a bunch of people fumbling around with a controller isn't exactly pulse pounding shooter action).  Combine this with the fact that FPS is a much more inherently competition oriented genre compared to something like racing, and you have a pretty decent reason.

Of course, I don't even own a console except for Wii for more or less precisely this reason.  Controllers are better for some games, don't get me wrong, but the kinds of games i like the best are *Generally* better on the PC to begin with.

[jakonovski]

Malakili said it for me. A competition is pointless without a level playing ground. Or level enough anyway, since there's the obvious issue of horsepower in the pc gaming world.

[rrazcueta]

Or they could have released a mouse/keyboard combo, sold it with halo as a pack for an extra 50 bucks, and made a fucking ton of money.

Good mice and keyboards cost more than 50.

[Sky]

Because then every competitive console mp fps player would have to sit at a desk with kb+m, and that would be huge marketing fail.

Shit, someone should've told me that in 2003!

[Samwise]

Or they could have released a mouse/keyboard combo, sold it with halo as a pack for an extra 50 bucks, and made a fucking ton of money.

Good mice and keyboards cost more than 50.

I guarantee you that you do not need a "good" mouse and keyboard if your competition is using a gamepad.   

[Rasix]

Because then every competitive console mp fps player would have to sit at a desk with kb+m, and that would be huge marketing fail.

Shit, someone should've told me that in 2003!

Who said you were competitive?  

OH!

edit: Wait a minute, he said "competitive console mp FPS player".  WHAAAA?    And if you want to go "bizzaro world Sky", it's pretty trivial nowadays to have your console at your desk.  I had my PS3 sitting on my desk for a few months due to noise issues with the new baby.

[Sky]

Well, that was BF1942, heh. I admit I'm rusty mcsuck at fps online these days. The only real sacrifice is the wired vs wireless mouse, if that even makes a difference anymore (and I guess you could string a USB extension to the sofa).

And did you just Dice Clay me? 

[WayAbvPar]

This comes as no surprise. I could also totally win a round of minigolf if I could use a pool cue, but for some people don't go around spouting that everyone should replace their putters, unlike with the pc/console dick waving contest.

[Segoris]

Or they could have released a mouse/keyboard combo, sold it with halo as a pack for an extra 50 bucks, and made a fucking ton of money.

Good mice and keyboards cost more than 50.

No, they don't, but who said they had to be good mice/keyboards to add $50 to the price? Selling $10 kb/m combo for $50 only adds to that "fucking ton of money" Malakili spoke of. Especially if you then market a $20 kb/m combo as "elite" or "pro" and sell it for $75 with the feature of background lit keys and a flashy logo on it.

[tgr]

Malakili said it for me. A competition is pointless without a level playing ground. Or level enough anyway, since there's the obvious issue of horsepower in the pc gaming world.

Except initially, the reason why consoles shouldn't have kb/m was "it would make it too much like a computer" and "it's not casual enough". Competitive play doesn't sound very casual to me. Besides, what's the problem with making servers which ban kb/m so that those who want to be "competitive" on a pad, can do so with others who want to be "competitive" on a pad, while those who want to use kb/m, can?

I'll tolerate using a pad in a singleplayer game (well, as long as the autoaim is sensible and not designed all retarded like as it was in SW:TFU), since I can do things at my own pace, but there is absolutely no way in hell I'll ever play an FPS/RTS/racing/etc game competitively, with a pad. For one because I'd get curbstomped, and secondly because I'd feel like I was trying to run through jelly.

Hell, it wouldn't even have to be a normal keyboard. Something like this or this would probably be fine.

Edit:

Fair competition.  FPS more than any other game save RTS really require players to be on similar equipment or else its just not going to be fun for one of the groups (or both, beating up on a bunch of people fumbling around with a controller isn't exactly pulse pounding shooter action).  Combine this with the fact that FPS is a much more inherently competition oriented genre compared to something like racing, and you have a pretty decent reason.

Btw, no. Pit a guy with a steeringwheel with forcefeedback in live for speed (no, not need for speed) against a guy with a gamepad, and the guy with a steeringwheel will eat the pad-player for lunch. And in a good racing game, competition is probably just as fierce as it is in most FPS games.

[Rasix]

And did you just Dice Clay me? 

I read the "OH!" in a Quagmire voice.  Although I suppose Quagmire wouldn't use it in this context.

[Morat20]

You know what I can't do with a keyboard and mouse? Sit on my fucking couch and play.

Oh, I suppose I could get some sort of lapdesk, rack up some nice wrist-aching hours, and manage that way. But it's not comfortable. Kb+mouse = ideal for desk. (Fuck, I get pissy about laptops because trying to angle things right so you have a comfortable surface to type, and because I hate those fucking pads and always want to plug in a mouse....).

KB+mouse? Sucks for dude wanting to lean back in his recliner, or lounge on his couch, or anything like that.

So, that's sort of a problem. Mouse is a far better aiming device for a FPS, no doubt about it. It's also never really going to be a good console controller, because kb and mouse is a big hefty fucking handful to juggle, as opposed to something you can just sit there with.

I refuse to play with controllers that have to run wires -- like some sort of fucking caveman -- to the console. I'm certainly not going to juggle a keyboard. I'll just go over to my PC if I want to play that.

[WayAbvPar]

Which is exactly what I do. I use my console mostly for sports/action games where analog controls really help, and use my PC for shooters for pretty much everything else. I really would enjoy playing against some console players someday...might get my K/D ratio out of the toilet!

[Morat20]

Which is exactly what I do. I use my console mostly for sports/action games where analog controls really help, and use my PC for shooters for pretty much everything else. I really would enjoy playing against some console players someday...might get my K/D ratio out of the toilet!

It helps that I truly, absolutely, positively, SUCK at any form of shooter. Ever.

Hence, I have no need to really play them on a PC, hence I don't have to keep my PC updated, hence I just muddle along with the controller with the game set on easy. Except Halo games, because my two friends will play through once on normal, then again on heroic, for reasons that escape me. (Except, of course, for achievement whoring. I understand that). Then again, other than Halo and now the L4D games, there's not a lot of decent FPS's that can play 3 people in campaign mode, are available on the console we all have (360), and also -- games we all have. :)

We're doing L4D2 now, and one day may even turn the difficulty up. However, I suck at FPS, one of my friends is even worse than me (although lucky the other is fairly skilled), so doing L4D2 with only one computer aim-bot is surprisingly difficult. :)

[Sky]

KB+mouse? Sucks for dude wanting to lean back in his recliner, or lounge on his couch, or anything like that.

7 years of doing just that, I have to say you're wrong. There is an adjustment period, but it's very natural for me. I set a thin book about 9x12 on a firm bed pillow next to me, that's my 'mouse pad'. Keyboard just goes in my lap, never felt the need for a table or tray or whatever. I do have a coffee table with a horizontal wood strip under it that I can rest my feet on.

Only problem is when the cat wants to sleep on the pillow. TF2 in 3D at 1080p and 65" is pretty awesome. And comfy.

[Ingmar]

No elbow support = unpossible, for me. I'd need some way to raise the mouse up much higher than what you describe too. Once all that gets involved I lose all the comfort factor of sitting on the sofa in the first place.

[Sky]

I slouch down, though. My butt is basically at the edge of the sofa and I sink down into the cushions. So I get support from the elbow down.

[Rendakor]

And what makes FPS games special since they have to be "protected" from us evil kb+m players, whereas racing games and guitar hero doesn't? What makes having a steering wheel while driving a racing game less serious than having a kb+m when playing an FPS? It's just an arbitrary and silly restriction which should never have been thought of.

The difference is that the purpose of a racing wheel or a guitar-shaped controller is to make the game seem more realistic, not to make you better at it. If you want an equal experience, put down the Xbox controller and go play your FPS games on the Wii with one of these.

[Malakili]

And what makes FPS games special since they have to be "protected" from us evil kb+m players, whereas racing games and guitar hero doesn't? What makes having a steering wheel while driving a racing game less serious than having a kb+m when playing an FPS? It's just an arbitrary and silly restriction which should never have been thought of.

The difference is that the purpose of a racing wheel or a guitar-shaped controller is to make the game seem more realistic, not to make you better at it. If you want an equal experience, put down the Xbox controller and go play your FPS games on the Wii with one of these.

Wait, you mean all my FPS skills won't translate to the shooting range?