I don't understand the EVE economy

[ajax34i]

ISK is created by:  missioneers, PVE ratters, the 40% portion of ship insurance.
ISK is destroyed by:  manufacturing costs, alliance fees (sov. etc), PLEX'es.

Materials and ships are created by:  industrialists - put in time, and very little in terms of manufacturing fees, and anything can be produced from a combination of ore, moon goo, and planet goo.
Materials and ships are destroyed by:  PVP'ers.

Traders create/destroy nothing and just concentrate ISK from other players into their own wallets.

Corps and Alliances drive the amount of PVP, and destroy ISK via various fees (office rentals, war costs, sov. costs, etc.)

So what I don't understand is this:  missioneers create loads of ISK and need nothing, while PVP'ers desperately need ISK in order to buy materials and ships, thus paying the industrialists.  The Industry-to-PVP chain works great and transfers materials through the economy nicely, but how the heck does the ISK get moving?  I'm not seeing any reasons for missioneers to spend any of their ISK, and I'm not seeing the PVP'ers being able to offer anything of interest to the missioneers to make them part with their money. 

How does the ISK flow, from where it enters the game to where it leaves?

[Phildo]

Deadspace gear.

Gist X-Type XL Shield Boosters, etc.

[Pezzle]

The difference between the cash leaving the game and the cash entering it is VAST.  EVE has a model with effectively unlimited ISK.

[IainC]

Missioneers don't (in general) just run missions because they enjoy the PvE in Eve. Mostly they are doing it as a means to an end - which might be LP rewards (another Isk drain), buying collections of faction ships or faction/officermodules (moving Isk around) or just grinding cash in the short term for a specific purchase such as a capital ship before heading back to a different area of the game. I ran L4s for ages because I wanted to build a stable of ships and to fatten my wallet for PvP, very few people are just running missions for the sake of it.

[Brolan]

Plus the mission runners are paying full retail while the PvPers are getting discounts or free ships from their corp/alliance.

[Fordel]

The Missioners and the PvP'ers are often the same person.


But there are totally people that just mass up ISK to taunt people with in trade windows. "Look at my jillions NONE FOR YOU!"

[IainC]

I'm sure there are people who play Eve as a single player experience using their wallet as a high-score counter. I expect that those people are in the minority however and that most people earning money have some intention of spending it.

[ajax34i]

The Missioners and the PvP'ers are often the same person.

I don't think they are.  Look at the difference in population between high-sec and low+nullsec, and then take any alliance total member count and extrapolate how many alts they'd have to have running missions in empire, to generate those kinds of dots on the map.  I don't see when they'd even have the time for missions, with all the CTA's and wars and ops happening.

[DLRiley]

The Missioners and the PvP'ers are often the same person.

I don't think they are.  Look at the difference in population between high-sec and low+nullsec, and then take any alliance total member count and extrapolate how many alts they'd have to have running missions in empire, to generate those kinds of dots on the map.  I don't see when they'd even have the time for missions, with all the CTA's and wars and ops happening.

actually i see PLENTY of time for missions with all very few instances of pvp actually happening.

[Kitsune]

Money leaves EVE when:

1. Your stuff gets blown up.
2. You buy insurance.
3. You buy skill books.
4. You buy anything else that's not player-made.
5. You pay sovereignty costs for owning a system.
6. You pay agent fees on market transactions.
7. You buy improved medical clones.
8. You convo or mail somebody who has a fee set up to contact them.
9. LP store items are purchased with ISK or item requirements.
10. Research or industry slots are rented at NPC stations.

Money gain is diminished in EVE when:

1. Stuff is processed into minerals at an inefficient refinery.
2. Stuff is built with a sub-optimal mineral efficiency.
3. NPC corporate taxes skim 11% off of mission income.

Resources leave EVE when:

1. Ammunition is expended.
2. Fuel is burned for jumps, bridges, and stations.

[MahrinSkel]

Money also leaves Eve when vanilla POS bits gets destroyed, and when the NPC fuels (non-ice products that the POS burn) are consumed.  A good Death Star, whatever the flavor of the week may be, is a billion+ isk going poof with no insurance and an extensive network of them can bill a few hundred million in non-Ice fuels a week.

--Dave

[Setanta]

The Missioners and the PvP'ers are often the same person.

I don't think they are.  Look at the difference in population between high-sec and low+nullsec, and then take any alliance total member count and extrapolate how many alts they'd have to have running missions in empire, to generate those kinds of dots on the map.  I don't see when they'd even have the time for missions, with all the CTA's and wars and ops happening.

In my case you are wrong. I have 2 PvP characters and support them with 3 industrialists (Orca +2x Hulk) and 2 mission runners. It's overkill sure but because I'm on a different TZ to many of my corp mates (and a lot of my alliance) I have the option to mission unless an op pops up. I prefer the PvP but the money that can be generated through my industrialists & runners means I can support myself in either minerals or ISK. Nowadays I tend to PvP more than PvE - the PvE is a means to an end (and I have to get back to it because I'm running broke :D ).

[Stabs]

  I don't see when they'd even have the time for missions, with all the CTA's and wars and ops happening.

A CTA doesn't stop you running missions on an out of core alt. Especially if no one in your corp knows you have one. I've never seen any sign of people trying to get others to "log onto your mains" the way raid guilds in dikus do.

I'm sure there are a lot of people in high sec who don't have 0,0 pvp alts but I really don't think there are many people in 0,0 without high sec alts. The game mechanics just heavily encourage being able to operate past war decs etc. Simply moving from a high sec mission point to a null sec fleet rally point is a pain, even with jump clones.

For the vast majority of players Eve is a game where you grind cash to eventually be able to support a kick ass pvp character. There are people who never get off the industrial kick or set some other sandboxy goal but they're the minority. Everyone is the hero in their own story and in Eve it's a long rambling story that can take years to really get into the action. Plus only the winners get to live in nullsec, losers grind isk in high sec until they're ready for another go.

[Endie]

We were naming people in jabber the other day who we knew had at least a trillion isk, and came up with at least 10 or 12.  Doubtless there are a few others.  Massive amounts of isk sits in many other wallets, large amounts of it in the wallets of those who have no intention of spending it.  That's a strong deflationary pressure, and Eve has been witnessing sustained deflationary trends in many areas for several years, now.

[ajax34i]

I don't disagree that lots of ISK exists or that it doesn't leave the game much; it just didn't make sense to me how the ISK moves from creation to destruction.   I agree that PVP'ers have to have money-making alts, but I didn't imagine that most of high-sec empire is actually the alts of PVP'ers.  It doesn't make sense, not just because of the size of the dots that the map shows, but also the whining on the forums.  Taking any of the PVP'er vs. carebear forum debates, do you imagine they're people arguing with their own alts?

[squirrel]

Spare a Drake pal?

[Kovacs]

It seems the question is, "Do mission runners have anything to spend their money on?" and as the answer seems to be Deadspace gear or not really then I'm not sure that the answer has real economic implications for Eve.  Money isn't really money unless it's spent.  I'm sure you can see how any ISK that is born, lives its whole life and dies without ever leaving a single characters wallet can't really mean a whole lot economically.  And remembering that the biggest money sink in Eve is probably unsubbed chars. is there any real difference between an unsubbed character and a subbed character who doesn't spend his money?

The slightly more interesting aggregate question to me is, "Is the Eve economy in danger due to Mudflation?"  Probably not.  The Eve CPI (a weighted avg. of the price of a basket of goods measured over time, or inflation proxy) seems stable at 3%-4%.  And not to get ridiculously stupid about this or disagree with Endie but in Eve where each firm is able to actually produce money endogenously, not just income as in the real world then inlationary or deflationary pressure seems to me to be created by measuring the deltas.  That is not by measuring the accumulation of wealth but in the change in the willingness of players to spend that wealth, to put that wealth at risk as it were.  Where more willingness means inflationary pressure and vice versa.

[Murgos]

We were naming people in jabber the other day who we knew had at least a trillion isk, and came up with at least 10 or 12.  Doubtless there are a few others.  Massive amounts of isk sits in many other wallets, large amounts of it in the wallets of those who have no intention of spending it.  That's a strong deflationary pressure, and Eve has been witnessing sustained deflationary trends in many areas for several years, now.

This.  I am a big fan of the ISK/Resources sequestered away in unused accounts theory as well.  Every time a player hits cancel his accumulated wealth is no longer available as a resource.

[Phildo]

Ammo is also a small isk sink, and they occasionally get suicide ganked to the tune of 1 billion or more.

[Stabs]

Mission running while generally profitable can consume a lot of isk. I lost my CNR yesterday which cost about 700m. A lot of ships are lost to pve mobs.

Even if you don't lose the ships there's a steady drain of ammo and drones. I've been getting 2-3 random disconnects per evening over the last few days, each one is 5 drones gone.

Loyalty points are also an isk sink, most items require both isk and lp.

[Endie]

In the last 24 hours 46 PC ships were lost in Motsu alone; 80 in Uedama; 43 in Sivala; 32 in Kassigainen, and so on.  That's just from looking at a few likely candidates in one region on dotlan.  Those place them amongst the more violent systems in Eve.

[eldaec]

I suspect the biggest isk sink in eve is people not logging on to eve online, and letting tens of billions rot on their abandoned character.

[Nephelim]

I have no idea of the scale on which this occurs (although I suspect it is probably quite small in comparison to other means of moving ISK in EVE), but PLEXs play some part in shifting ISK from those who make it easily to those who have a desperate need for it. I know a couple of industrialists who happily boast about not having had to use real dollars to pay their monthly subs for quite some time.

[Meester]

Personally Im in favour of any mmo that turns in-game currency into an object. Imagine isk as an item or can be turned into gold that you have to transport in order to buy things. Imagine the cry of the carebear ^-^.

There should be more ways to go into debt in eve and more economic warfare. NPC corp characters should be affected by economic warfare.

[Amarr HM]

I once made about ten billion suicide ganking, then blew it all on T2 ships, Slave implants and cheap wimmin.

[LK]

I once made about ten billion suicide ganking, then blew it all on T2 ships, Slave implants and cheap wimmin.

You forgot ale to go with your whores.

[Stabs]

Personally Im in favour of any mmo that turns in-game currency into an object. Imagine isk as an item or can be turned into gold that you have to transport in order to buy things. Imagine the cry of the carebear ^-^.

There should be more ways to go into debt in eve and more economic warfare. NPC corp characters should be affected by economic warfare.

Interesting.

I'm not sure how you would justify lugging gold about as the main form of trading in a sci fi MMO. Then again, looking at the current state of banks it's not unimaginable that we may arrive at a future without them. You could explore the reasons people use physical cash (anonymity, convenience, habit) and design game mechanics around cash and banking with different advantages for each system. But that may mean you have to implement things that aren't fun as game mechanics (for example the banks being closed so you are unable to spend your money all weekend).

I can't think of a game where money is as important as it is in Eve where you can lose it all. I remember dropping all my gold in Diablo 2 but gold really didn't mean much there. I think it might be very gameable, for instance you could make a "bank" alt in a safe spot and trade all your money to the alt who only logs on to act as a virtual cashpoint.

Debt I think doesn't work as a design mechanic. What's to stop me rolling a character, maxxing my debt, doing something high risk then re-rolling if I don't hit the jackpot? Or more simply, rolling alts, posting all they can borrow to my main then deleting them and rolling new ones.

[Goumindong]

Certainly there are mechanisms that you could implement. Mainly though it would have to be very rigid to make up for the lack of a legal system.

I.E.

1) only players of X time in game can take loans.

2) If funds are available at the time of repayment they will automatically happen

3) If funds are not available at the time of repayment then ONLY the principal will be returned automatically to the lender and the Lendee will go into negative money

4) A history of all contracts needs to be recorded

Should prevent the worst of the abuses

The real problem with EVE's contracts is that personal contract history is not public and that you can't actually loan money using it(thus having some sort of enforcement mechanism for collateral)

[Phildo]

Imagine isk as an item or can be turned into gold that you have to transport in order to buy things. Imagine the cry of the carebear ^-^.

This is called the Drone Regions, and the people who live there have unreasonably large supercap fleets.

[Meester]

Supercaps need adjusting period. There goes the carrier & dreadnaught market. Im in favour of getting rid of alts too. They should never have been added. Praying to the gods that Incarna gets rid of alts (some hope I know).

In-game currency as an item would work better if no new currency was constantly being added. For example every new player has a certain amount of currency that comes with them and they can only get more currency from other players starting currency.

[Phildo]

What do you mean by getting rid of alts?  You mean that each account can support three characters?

[Pezzle]

Die Alts Die Caps Die CCP encouraging metagaming.  

None of that will happen so the more interesting changes like harsh restrictions on jump clones  or serious 0.0 upgrades will never see the light of day.  The space of EVE is not grand any longer.  What a pity.

[Endie]

CCP would be dumb to allow each account to train more than one character at a time: if would gut their existing account subscription base.  That won't happen.

If you mean to try and address alts by removing the need for them then (a) that would make it less of an MMO, reducing bonds between non-alt accounts, too and (b) see the above answer on the account base.  It would also be impractical: you can use cyno beacons instead of cyno alts already, but do so without scouting on an alt and you will die, sooner or later.  You can jump your BS back from last night's disastrous op solo and unscouted if you like, but I hope you have your lucky white heather with you.  If you allow people to be logged in multiple times from the same account then you're just dividing the cost of your product by three (and encouraging people to share accounts simultaneously).

I'm not even addressing the degree of rigour with which CCP would track down and punish people who viciously and shamelessly insist on giving them more money by getting around some putative "no alts" rule.  I'm sure that they'd be right onto that.

[Meester]

What do you mean by getting rid of alts?  You mean that each account can support three characters?

That too, although I have no idea how they would get rid of alts. I myself have used up the character slots, but I would happily sacrifice them. It would make spying harder for example but it would change the nature of spying. Spies would have to be more careful and perhaps there would be more effort to turn the worm [for example Harrgoth Agamar] as well as perhaps decreasing the gap between rich folks who can afford more alts and RMT from poor people and stubborn folks like myself who refuse to buy virtual items (with real money). Down with the bourgeoisie and other similiar commie statements.

[Goumindong]

In-game currency as an item would work better if no new currency was constantly being added. For example every new player has a certain amount of currency that comes with them and they can only get more currency from other players starting currency.

that is retarded.