Walking Dead

[taolurker]

[MahrinSkel]

[insert 10 pages of posts about guns]

I'm too busy being sexist to argue about guns again.

--Dave

[Rendakor]

Place bets now: Politics or The Den?

[angry.bob]

[insert 10 pages of posts about guns]

Not really. Unlike a discussion about what amounts to opinions about guns, there's plenty of numbers available to come to a clear, indisputable conclusion about which sex is better with firearms. It's men, pretty much the end of discussion.

[Surlyboi]

Frankly, I get the whole idea of protecting the womb-bearers, but in the event of a zombie apocalypse, I'd want me woman beside me shooting at shit too.

Pretty much that.

[MahrinSkel]

Frankly, I get the whole idea of protecting the womb-bearers, but in the event of a zombie apocalypse, I'd want me woman beside me shooting at shit too.

Pretty much that.

Yeah, I'm not making a blanket statement that women can't shoot, or that they can't be better shots than men (given a random selection of persons in low numbers, it is possible that the best shot will be a woman, and likely there will be men who are worse shots than one or more of the women, the chances of the first go down and the second up as the size of the group increases).  Just pushing back against the received wisdom that male/female physical performance issues are just upper body strength.  They aren't, men on average have 20-40% more lower body strength, a faster metabolism, faster reflexes, and greater precision in large-muscle motions, and that's *after* controlling for all environmental, training, and non-gendered genetic influences.

On the flip side, all other factors being equal men die younger.  In the Zombie Apocalypse, I'm going to want everyone to know how to protect themselves, and if there's a woman that's a better shot and we're short on guns or ammo, I'd rather have her shooting then Johnny Fumblefingers (for example, "Lara Croft" probably wouldn't have shot up the truck).  But I'm a product of an egalitarian upbringing and culture, where physical performance was not the make or break of who gets to call the shots.  Take away our social support system and I don't think it would take more than a generation for that to fall away.  I'm not saying it would be a good thing, it wouldn't be.  But it would be inevitable.  I think that the writers for TWD thought so too, but abandoned it after the first season because they weren't making a show about *that*, it was a distraction.

--Dave

EDIT: Since the whole topic at hand is the *lack* of sexism in TWD, I am not making value judgements about it but merely discussing the factual context, and the second paragraph is an explanation of why the discussion is germane to the series, I'm not sure what Tale's problem with it is.

EDIT2: What I'm getting at is that people being the ego-centric, status-conscious pricks they are, if someone tries to take the gun away from Johnny Fumblefingers and give it to Annie Oakley, odds are he's going to bitch up a storm and many (perhaps even most) of the others are going to back him up, even if it reduces the overall chances for survival.  We're nowhere near enlightened enough for it to go any other way, and the fact that the writers have chosen to step away from that is a bit of an "Elephant In The Room".

[Tale]

Post about The Walking Dead or GTFO. Don't just give it a token mention at the end of your post.

[apocrypha]

See, this started because I said that the shows writers responded to criticisms of sexism in early seasons.

I could also have said they responded similarly to criticisms of racism.

Go! 

[Cyrrex]

See, this started because I said that the shows writers responded to criticisms of sexism in early seasons.

I could also have said they responded similarly to criticisms of racism.

Go! 

...so in conclusion, in the event of a zombie apocalypse, all black people would be considered disposable meat shields.  It's natures own law!

(that is totally green, by the way)

I agree with Dave for the most part.  Then again, I think it depends on how far and for how long things devolve into chaos.  The longer it lasts, the more likely we are to revert to those ancient (maybe not so ancient) norms.  Also, when the bullets run out, and they eventually will, the women are going to be screwed.

[Ironwood]

The racism was blatant tho. 

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, probably.  Especially if you take Glenn in the conversation, as the clever little Asian fellow.  Odd that this is rarely brought up.  At any rate, I think they are doing better on that front now.  There are a couple pretty strong black characters that aren't being portrayed as disposable.

This doesn't mean they won't get their faces eaten off, it just means they can't do it without us giving a shit.

[Ironwood]

No, I'm not sure at all that I'll accept the Glenn character as being a racist portrayal.  Quite the opposite.


But introducing black character after black character as Red Shirts was fucking shameless.

[jgsugden]

No, I'm not sure at all that I'll accept the Glenn character as being a racist portrayal.  Quite the opposite.


But introducing black character after black character as Red Shirts was fucking shameless.

I disagree.  If the story worked best with those characters dying, and they refused to kill them off due to their race, that would be shameless.  That would be clear racism.  The deaths on the show made sense for the story and the characters were not displayed in a negative light.  That is not to say that the show has not disappointed me in this general area.  I'll give them knocks for under-representation, and give them knocks for underutilization of those characters... but not for killing off characters of a certain race. 

Death is equal opportunity in the apocalypse.  It just isn't on a quota system.

[Ironwood]

A wondrous man of straw appears.

[Cyrrex]

Heh.

Racism is probably the wrong word regarding Glenn.  A bit of stereotyping, perhaps.

Anyway, whatever, I don't care.  I just want good, believable characters and I don't give a shit what they look like.

[shiznitz]

Yes, let us please not equate stereotyping with racism.  They are not completely separate but they are also not the same thing.

[Yegolev]

The women I know all say that men can't run a house, so it might be less about fighting and more about getting us out of the camp so we stop making fart jokes and shaking the babies.

[Ironwood]

I don't even see Glenn as a stereotype either.  I think I'm seeing a different Glenn than you chaps.  Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

[Yegolev]

Possibly they mean Season 1 Glenn.  He's matured a lot.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, but when we met him he was like 9 or something.

 

[Yegolev]

He was also good at math.

[Evildrider]

Even though he is Asian, he was still a better driver than Lori.

[Cheddar]

Even though he is Asian, he was still a better driver than Lori.

except he left the blinker on for miles!

[angry.bob]

Remember that before the apocalypse Glenn was a slacker who delivered pizzas for a living. That's most decidedly not an Asian stereotype.

[Surlyboi]

I disagree.  If the story worked best with those characters dying, and they refused to kill them off due to their race, that would be shameless.  That would be clear racism.

What in the everliving fuck are you talking about?

[Cyrrex]

I disagree.  If the story worked best with those characters dying, and they refused to kill them off due to their race, that would be shameless.  That would be clear racism.

What in the everliving fuck are you talking about?

Lighten up...some of his best friends once knew a black dude!

[Surlyboi]

Well, that makes it ok then.

[taolurker]

Also:

[Ironwood]

Oh God, that dog.

[jgsugden]

I disagree.  If the story worked best with those characters dying, and they refused to kill them off due to their race, that would be shameless.  That would be clear racism.

What in the everliving fuck are you talking about?

Making a decision based upon race, and not upon how it factors into the story -  Why do I need to explain how that is racism?  It is cookie cutter racism.  Saying, "We can't kill the only black person on the show" is as racist as saying, "We can't portay the green person as intelligent."  The story should dictate how the characters are treated, not the color of an actor's skin.

[MahrinSkel]

I disagree.  If the story worked best with those characters dying, and they refused to kill them off due to their race, that would be shameless.  That would be clear racism.

What in the everliving fuck are you talking about?

Making a decision based upon race, and not upon how it factors into the story -  Why do I need to explain how that is racism?  It is cookie cutter racism.  Saying, "We can't kill the only black person on the show" is as racist as saying, "We can't portay the green person as intelligent."  The story should dictate how the characters are treated, not the color of an actor's skin.

This series kills kids.  On camera.  I don't think they'd shy away from killing the black guy just because he was black.

--Dave

EDIT: I think part of the deal with T-Dog and "Other Black Guy" was that OBG was literally just a placeholder for T-Dog, who was fired for non-plot driven reasons.

[jgsugden]

...EDIT: I think part of the deal with T-Dog and "Other Black Guy" was that OBG was literally just a placeholder for T-Dog, who was fired for non-plot driven reasons.

I thought the death of T-Dog was story driven.  I have not heard anything otherwise. 

[MahrinSkel]

...EDIT: I think part of the deal with T-Dog and "Other Black Guy" was that OBG was literally just a placeholder for T-Dog, who was fired for non-plot driven reasons.

I thought the death of T-Dog was story driven.  I have not heard anything otherwise. 

There was a lot of talk about the fear the actors had over taking sides in the arguments between Darabont and the network, and how "anybody can get killed".  T-Dog was the death that was least integral to the overall plot around that time.  Where Dale and Shane you could see it coming for a long time and was a major plot point, T-Dog was more just "*bam*, he's dead Jim", and then OBG was there mostly just standing around in scenes until he was killed.

--Dave

[jgsugden]

I believe I read articles where they discussed the reasons for killing T-dog.  2 reasons stickin my memory: They wanted to cut down the 'inner circle' so that you removed Rick's support structure and made it harder for him to 'walk away' from the fight, and it was intended to make the audience feel the 'death quota' had been filled so that the Lori death would be more of a surprise.

[shiznitz]

I always viewed Lori's death as inevitable after Shane died.  The show just seemed to be moving in that tragic path.  I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen Carl die last season, but now he has developed into a much more interesting character on his own and less of a Rick appendage..