A Theory of Fun

[schild]

So if the title was "A Theory of Game Design", and page 1 was "Hey! Make it fun!" and the rest of the book was unchanged, would that be any better?

Yes. Though I would add "Hey! Make it fun, here's what I learned from my mistakes."

I mean, Raph is justly renowned for treating game design with a scholarly discipline that few others can. He would not only be qualified to write the book he did, I dare say he'd be near the top of the list of people who were.

Agreed. But the title was chosen to sell books.

Refer back to what I said about the politics of game design. Just because YOU didn't like it? Maybe there were parts he didn't like either. And maybe this is part of his crafting a new baseline to start from. "Hey! Let's make it fun. Well, what is fun? Here's my thought."

Please, the most publically complained about MMORPG that isn't dead or on it's way is SW:G. From day 1, the forums were a rantboard.

"Hey! Let's make it fun. I've fucked up a bit in the past, I hope you learn from my mistakes!"

Ivory Towers need not apply.

[Lum]

I trust you understand that it would be wholly inappropriate for me to comment on the relative fun of a competitor's product.

That being said. Really, I recommend picking it up and reading it. There's probably a good bit you'll disagree with. There's a lot you'll think "Hey, why didn't he do this in game X?" Good books spark discussion. Raph's is no exception.

I certainly don't agree with everything he's written, but to say in a blanket statement he's unqualified to write about fun in game design is silly. That's like saying anyone who hasn't had a hand in crafting Casablanca has no business writing about scriptwriting.

[Shockeye]

I certainly don't agree with everything he's written, but to say in a blanket statement he's unqualified to write about fun in game design is silly. That's like saying anyone who hasn't had a hand in crafting Casablanca has no business writing about scriptwriting.

Fun is subjective anyways. I'm sure to many people the stuff Raph has done is fun and great and wonderful. If even one person finds something you do fun, then you're qualified to write about fun to at least that one person, yes?

[schild]

I trust you understand that it would be wholly inappropriate for me to comment on the relative fun of a competitor's product.

And I wouldn't ask you to.

That being said. Really, I recommend picking it up and reading it.

His agent sucks. This - I will harp on repeatedly.

There's probably a good bit you'll disagree with. There's a lot you'll think "Hey, why didn't he do this in game X?" Good books spark discussion. Raph's is no exception.

I certainly don't agree with everything he's written, but to say in a blanket statement he's unqualified to write about fun in game design is silly.

I like reading what he has to say. He's very entitled to talk about game design. More than most. Much more than most. But people judge by previous works. And by doing that, the title of the book should have had "fun" nowhere near it. That was a marketing trick.

[Righ]

But the title was chosen to sell books.

That's amazing! New tricks are created every day. Why didn't somebody come up with that idea in the previous 550 years?

[schild]

But the title was chosen to sell books.

That's amazing! New tricks are created every day. Why didn't somebody come up with that idea in the previous 550 years?

Awwwwww comeon man. I didn't say it was an original idea. You don't have to walk through just because the door is open.

[Righ]

You were over-exposed. It was only a matter of time before somebody laughed at your nads.

[Raph]

Agent? I have an agent?

[Raph]

OK, to be a little less flippant--a large part of what drove me to research and write the book was the feeling that I needed to go back to basics. You can read that as "I've lost track of the fun and the book was me trying to find it" if you like, though it's an oversimplification.

[WindupAtheist]

You couldn't get a Hutt faction into the game, but you managed to finish the dancing Wookie barbers?!  What the f...  ahem...  *hack cough*

Sorry.  I'll have a look at the book next time I'm in Borders, and snag if it grabs my interest.  I do hope it has colorful pictures...

[Calantus]

You couldn't get a Hutt faction into the game, but you managed to finish the dancing Wookie barbers?!  What the f...  ahem...  *hack cough*

Sorry.  I'll have a look at the book next time I'm in Borders, and snag if it grabs my interest.  I do hope it has colorful pictures...

You don't get to rag on Raph until you stop playing UO. If a game he worked on still works for you how ever many goddamn years it has been out (what is it, 8 now?), then you can't really criticize now can you?

[Arnold]

But people judge by previous works. And by doing that, the title of the book should have had "fun" nowhere near it. That was a marketing trick.

IMO, Ultima Online (in its earlier incarnation) is one of the greatest games of all time.

[Arnold]

You couldn't get a Hutt faction into the game, but you managed to finish the dancing Wookie barbers?!  What the f...  ahem...  *hack cough*

Sorry.  I'll have a look at the book next time I'm in Borders, and snag if it grabs my interest.  I do hope it has colorful pictures...

You don't get to rag on Raph until you stop playing UO. If a game he worked on still works for you how ever many goddamn years it has been out (what is it, 8 now?), then you can't really criticize now can you?

No shit.  I quit playing UO years ago, after other people managed to fuck it up, but I still consider it to be one of the greatest games of all time.  Raph could go on to create a 50 year career's worth of shitty games, and it would all be redeemed by UO.

[blindy]

IMO, Ultima Online (in its earlier incarnation) is one of the greatest games of all time.

I'm thinking that one of the greatest games of all time wouldn't have been beset by horrendous server lag, game crippling bugs, and general all-around instability.  IMO, Super Metroid is one of the greatest games of all time, but if it had locked up and I had to reset my SNES everytime I had played it, then I probably wouldn't feel that way.  But maybe that's just me.

[Pineapple]

OK, to be a little less flippant--a large part of what drove me to research and write the book was the feeling that I needed to go back to basics. You can read that as "I've lost track of the fun and the book was me trying to find it" if you like, though it's an oversimplification.

Well on that note, I applaud you for that. Now I await to see how this can be applied to the next game SOE puts out. You are in an influential position, so lets see the fun put back in future games and the mind numbing grind taken out.

I dont want crafting grinds. I dont want XP grinds. I dont want to grind on stuff that really has nothing to do with being a Jedi or a Hero or an EpicMeister. By grind, I mean agonizing repetition that is such that it makes me focus on that instead of enjoying the game.

WoW certainly has grinds. But they are so well covered that they do not distract from the fun at all. I do not have to macro anything AFK. I do not feel that I am working on a totally unrelated skillset just to reach a goal. I do not feel ANY need to XP grind. I do not have to make a bazillion widgets to reach the next crafting level.

Even Katamari Damacy has a grind you could say, but it's all in the presentation.

[Pineapple]

No shit.  I quit playing UO years ago, after other people managed to fuck it up, but I still consider it to be one of the greatest games of all time.  Raph could go on to create a 50 year career's worth of shitty games, and it would all be redeemed by UO.

UO was great. However it didnt start out as great as it became. Remember archers? Remember the first energy bolts? Ever had your house in UO completely looted because someone ran in the door behind you? For a time, that would happen.

And lets give credit to the many other unmentioned people that worked on UO and contributed greatly to it. Raph didnt make the game himself.

[Azaroth]

However it didnt start out as great as it became. Remember archers? Remember the first energy bolts? Ever had your house in UO completely looted because someone ran in the door behind you? For a time, that would happen.

Some of that is referred to as fun by certain people, some of that is attributed simply to not having the experience to, obviously, fine tune good features right off the bat.

Those situations were rectified in an appropriate manner, and then everything was screwed up after he left.

[HRose]

Well on that note, I applaud you for that. Now I await to see how this can be applied to the next game SOE puts out.

You want to see Yet Another MMORPG from Sony? No, really?

[Yegolev]

UO was great. However it didnt start out as great as it became. Remember archers? Remember the first energy bolts? Ever had your house in UO completely looted because someone ran in the door behind you? For a time, that would happen.

I remember being ganked repeatedly and having any sort of fun sucked out of the game by grammatically-challenged assholes in bone armor.  I never made it long enough to buy a house and the scars of that griefing remain today.  Especially since I was so excited about the concept of such a game, not just the game itself, and got it as a Christmas present.  It's like a kid getting that toy truck he has always wanted and within a week the neighborhood kids set it on fire and shit on the ashes.

[Jeff Kelly]

UO was great. However it didnt start out as great as it became. Remember archers? Remember the first energy bolts? Ever had your house in UO completely looted because someone ran in the door behind you? For a time, that would happen.

/rant

Well when I logged into UO for the first time (One Month after release because I had to import it from the US) about five minutes after arriving in britain my character had been robbed completely of all possessions , everyone was talking in some kind of unintelligible dewdspeak while vendors were spamming the screen with their announcements. For a moment I thought that I had accidentally travelled to rome instead.

During the first month of play I had been grief killed many times over had died many times over while hunting rabbits or squirrels all the while losing my precious possessions to grief killers, corpse campers and thiefs. And I still got killed fairly often while hunting rabbits and squirrels.

Communication was still impossible because my skills in leet-speak hadn't improved significantly. Then there was lag, lag and even more lag and every time I would log in there were another two megabytes worth of patches waiting to be downloaded while I was on a 28.8 kBit/s line which was billed by the minute.

Yeah, great times indeed.

I actually played UO for four months because three friends of mine also played but then I  decided WTF and spent my time doing something worthwhile.

Jeff

[Pineapple]

You want to see Yet Another MMORPG from Sony? No, really?

I didnt say I would buy it. :)
I just want to see if all this "getting back to the basics" actually materializes. Show me proof. Show me a fun game.

[Dark Vengeance]

I actually played UO for four months because three friends of mine also played but then I decided WTF and spent my time doing something worthwhile.

And other people who played it longer, and figured out how to achieve some success enjoyed the game, and continued to do so for much longer.

My God, man, it's 7 years later and people are still bitching about "OMG I GOT GANKED BY DEWDS IN UO, IT SUCKED". Nevermind that they made change after change trying to appease the folks who didn't like non-consentual PvP, enough so that eventually chased away even the players who were able to adapt and thrive in that environment.

What amazed me the most back in those days were people who would go out alone to bunny bash, get PKed, and then just re-equip and do the same thing again....and then complain about having the same result.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Bunk]

First time I was ganked in UO after having finally aquired some usable equipment and gold - I pulled a full-blown hairy conniption. Stomping around the room, face bright red, this close to throwing the keyboard through the window...

Then I got over it, learned the ins and outs of the game, and had a great time playing UO for another two years.

[Raph]

Since you're all discussing the book without having read it, I thought you might like to see some of the things people who actually read it have said:

http://walloworld.com/index.php?p=267

http://www.gamedev.net/features/reviews/productreview.asp?productid=513

http://mfeldstein.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/book_recommendation_a_theory_of_fun_for_game_design/

http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/01/25/a-theory-of-fun-reviewed/

[plummerx]

Since you're all discussing the book without having read it, I thought you might like to see some of the things people who actually read it have said:

http://walloworld.com/index.php?p=267

http://www.gamedev.net/features/reviews/productreview.asp?productid=513

http://mfeldstein.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/book_recommendation_a_theory_of_fun_for_game_design/

http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/01/25/a-theory-of-fun-reviewed/

Actual first hand experience with anything seem of little value here.
I suggest stop asking for silly things like reason and logic, and simply heat up your rhetoric.
"You R teh suck" will be placed upon you any time now.

[schild]

PlummerX is just upset that we don't want to talk about WWIIOL. He's also dangerously close to being hit with women's deoderant.

[plummerx]

PlummerX is just upset that we don't want to talk about WWIIOL. He's also dangerously close to being hit with women's deoderant.

I don't want to talk about it either. You brought it up.
You R now teh suck for having mentioned it.
Take a Midol.

[HaemishM]

Actual first hand experience with anything seem of little value here.
I suggest stop asking for silly things like reason and logic, and simply heat up your rhetoric.
"You R teh suck" will be placed upon you any time now.

You know, there are at least 4 or 5 other places on the Interweb that you could vent your spleen about the game that shall not be mentioned. If you think our discussions are more rhetoric than is worthwhile, I suggest you bugger the fuck off and go somewhere else.

Start Here.

[plummerx]

Actual first hand experience with anything seem of little value here.
I suggest stop asking for silly things like reason and logic, and simply heat up your rhetoric.
"You R teh suck" will be placed upon you any time now.

You know, there are at least 4 or 5 other places on the Interweb that you could vent your spleen about the game that shall not be mentioned. If you think our discussions are more rhetoric than is worthwhile, I suggest you bugger the fuck off and go somewhere else.

Start Here.

For fuck's sake, you guy's keep bringing it up.

I  was focusing on the guy's book, which many seem fully qualified to comment on without ever having read. It was a view on the quality of the commentary lately, and NOTHING more.

I think the reactionary lable you apply to me is better applied to yourselves.
Start Here

[SirBruce]

Are you accusing the reviewers of not actually having read the book?  Or are accusing a poster here of not actually having read the book?  If so, who are you accusing?

Bruce

[plummerx]

Well, I could accuse you of being a jerk, but that's already  been established.


EDIT *** The above is a technical response to an attempt at "SirBruceing" the thread***

[Shockeye]

Well, I could accuse you of being a jerk, but that's already  been established.


EDIT *** The above is a technical response to an attempt at "SirBruceing" the thread***

One day timeout for being a repeated jackass.

[Raph]

I think he meant me accusing. But maybe I am wrong,

In any case, I wasn't accusing with any sort of acrimony--it seemed evident from several of the posts debating whether it was worth reading in the first place. Just a statement of fact.

Please do go read it though ;)

[Jain Zar]

UO was great. However it didnt start out as great as it became. Remember archers? Remember the first energy bolts? Ever had your house in UO completely looted because someone ran in the door behind you? For a time, that would happen.

I remember being ganked repeatedly and having any sort of fun sucked out of the game by grammatically-challenged assholes in bone armor.  I never made it long enough to buy a house and the scars of that griefing remain today.  Especially since I was so excited about the concept of such a game, not just the game itself, and got it as a Christmas present.  It's like a kid getting that toy truck he has always wanted and within a week the neighborhood kids set it on fire and shit on the ashes.

My sentiments exactly.  UO, just like SWG looks bloody BRILLIANT on paper.  In reality they sucked.  HARD.  Reminds me of Games Workshop games.  Well meaning gentlemen that are clearly intelligent made them.  But with a naievity that sees the game fall apart when other people actually start playing it.

[Calantus]

Reminds me of Games Workshop games.  Well meaning gentlemen that are clearly intelligent made them.  But with a naievity that sees the game fall apart when other people actually start playing it.

Please explain. Not having a dig at you, I just want to know where you think it failed. Personally the only things I didn't like about the games were with gaming communities in general, and the cost. Plus them ditching necromunda and everyone dropping it as a result. Damn that game was fun (and the new EPIC, the old one was complicated sure, but it was a great way to piss away an entire day with massive battles).