Kodu - "visual programming" game dev toy

[Samwise]

Wasn't sure whether this goes in Gaming or Development.  It's some of both.



http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/

I haven't gotten around to grabbing the free beta and playing with it yet, but from what I've read so far, it's like a cross between Garry's Mod and Visual Basic, except maybe with a nicer interface.  Intended as a way for kids to be able to learn some of the concepts of programming without having to type anything.

I'm not convinced it's going to be a better first programming language than Logo, but the concept is interesting, and from all the examples on planetkodu.com it looks like it's usable enough.

[Ghambit]

This is much better than Scratch.
As for Logo, which GUI do you find works best? 

Ahhhh, the ol' Turtle.  Brings me back to my AppleIIe days - kinda refreshing.

[Samwise]

UCB Logo is the standard these days, I think.  The last time I played around with it I wasn't hugely impressed with their GUI, though; I think the simplicity of the Apple IIe version was in many ways ideal for a kid playing around with that stuff for the first time.

[Margalis]

In before this isn't better than Log-

I'm not convinced it's going to be a better first programming language than Logo..

Well never mind then.

I was using logo around age 6 or 7 maybe? (I dunno, something like that) Is learning to program without having to type really meaningful or useful? The idea of mapping a picture of an "A" button to a picture of a dude jumping seems a lot less like "learning to program" than actually typing in programs that use iterative loops and things of that nature.

[Mrbloodworth]

Seems to be more the route of "learn the logic" rather than "learn the syntax". I think its kinda neat.

[Grimwell]

I picked up the full version for my kids a while ago - at their request.

It's a neat little tool that does allow them to be creative and make interesting things, but it's also limiting. I wouldn't suggest buying this as a means of learning how to program; but taken from the "fun toy" angle it's not bad at all. It might teach them to think with programming logic, but it's not going to help a formal education enough to be considered a teaching tool.

I have my son in a flash class, and he's never compared what he's doing to Kodu. He does not see the link intuitively.

[Lantyssa]

At a glance it seems more like how to use a toolset than how to be a programmer.

[NiX]

Anyone have experience with Alice? I've heard it works pretty well for teaching kids programming and does a decent job of interesting girls in the CS major.

[Grimwell]

I gave my kids Alice as well. My daughters (Ages 6 & 8 at the time) really didn't do much with it. My son (age 10 at the time) used it for a science fair project (demonstrating a proof of the theory that games can be educational - win). It's more involved than Kodu, and a good step up from it really. The interface is nowhere near as polished, which is good in a way. Developer tools are rarely polished either. :)

[Ghambit]

People forget that kids are moreso cognitively built to learn programming than adults.  There's no real reason to baby them.
The main issue is just keeping them interested, and if you put it in a gaming syntax they usually are.  I say give em the UDK and CS4 and tell em to have at it.  (with quality video tuts)

If they're the pen-protector type than try em out on Scheme-Lisp or Logo in a classroom environment.  If they've got the juice for object-oriented stuff than throw XNA/C# at them; ideally using 3dBuzz's tuts.  (also for the UDK).

[Xilren's Twin]

I actually got this back when it was first realeased and played around with it and my kids.  They thought it was neat for about 30 minutes, but the things you could build with it were so junvenille looking and capable that they quickly lost interest.  I mean, it's so cartoony, bright and colorful it screams for nap time.  If they had made this more "baby's first FPS level designer" with the same ease of building logical elements and behaviors, but with decent "adult looking" graphics i suspect they would have gotten way more interest from kids.

[Yegolev]

I'm wondering how to interest my son in programming.  I was thinking about my own experience in school, doing simple things in BASIC on an Apple, and I realized that writing code wasn't terribly far from playing games at that time.  Outside an arcade, anyway, but even then things were UGLY and it wasn't a big leap to think I could do better.  Today, though, it is definitely a big leap for my son to think he can program something remotely resembling his favorite games.  I can only imagine how fast nap time will arrive if I put him in front of any real SDK; I can't even get him to look at my own work, some of which is relatively colorful due to syntax highlighting.

[Ghambit]

If he's the writer-type you could always try him out on something like Mudmaker or perhaps some interactive fiction (zork style) like Inform.  They're good at teaching basic programming principles w/o much need for code.  Then later, when he wonders how things actually work, he can delve deeper.

Like I said before though, if he needs perdy graphics in front of him than you'll need a good real-time GUI at least, or something like UDK (with Kismet).  And I'm still a huge proponent of kids learning Flash... they can play with the timeline 1st and then graduate to raw Actionscript, and when they get older it's easy to find a job if need-be...  and it helps with school and forming ideas.  Another trick is to get them involved in Machinima... which you can use any game for obviously, or stuff like iClone.

Like you said, the direct approach likely wont work these days.  Developers know this, which is why everyone is moving to more managed code, expansive GUIs, and layering all kinds of scripting tools on top of their code - some of them like Kodu, where you dont even have to type really.

[Grimwell]

Yegolev, you can take a horse to water...

The only thing I did to force the issue with my kids was told them that they could fix that if they knew how to program any time they haven't liked something in a game. I encouraged based off their own ideas. When I landed at SOE things changed because (as far as they understood), making games is what daddy did - so now it's more like "Be like dad." but I still don't push. I encourage the things that I hear and like and pretend the rest does not exist. :D

[Yegolev]

I probably should have mentioned that he is six.   Considering that, as well as the fact that I recently agreed to stop yelling angry things from the sidelines during soccer games/practices, I'll adopt Grimwell's sage advice.  He already asks me why things are the way they are in games, so I might be able to use that.  Won't hurt to grab Kodu, I suppose.

[Tarami]

I was thinking something like http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/products/default.aspx might be a reasonable starting level.

[Yegolev]

daddy like


Lego has come a long way since I was a boy.  I'll have to grab this.

[Ghambit]

Hey, just 'cause he's 6 doesnt mean he cant program (I messed with Apples in pre-first).  Language is language and the younger you are the better you are at learning them.  The biggest issue is attention span and touch-typing.  Young kids have small fingers.

If you go the Mindstorm route, you're basically doing Logo-Lisp stuff... and we're back to the beginning of this thread      I had no success with my little 9 yr. old brother though.  He's not into robots.  Good luck... commence brainwashing.  Perhaps make a soccer-robot using Mindstorm?

[Murgos]

I was thinking something like http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/products/default.aspx might be a reasonable starting level.

I was reading the thread and was all, dude he should totally check out mindstorms and then you stole my thunder and I was all like 

[Samwise]

Hey, just 'cause he's 6 doesnt mean he cant program (I messed with Apples in pre-first).  Language is language and the younger you are the better you are at learning them.  The biggest issue is attention span and touch-typing.  Young kids have small fingers.

Word.  The cool thing about Logo is that at its simplest it's an Etch-a-Sketch, except you type numbers instead of twisting knobs.  At first it just feels like a toy.  Then once he's comfortable with the basics, show him how a simple recursive function turns his Etch-a-Sketch into a Spirograph, and he'll be hooked.   

[Yegolev]

I downloaded UCBLogo, now I have to learn to use it.  This is bound to push out some critical work knowledge.

Will be getting the Mindstorms.

[Samwise]

If you want to get a really quick idea of how Logo works, check out this Javascript implementation:  http://www.calormen.com/Logo/

It's not a fully functional version of Logo, I think (some of the nuances of function definitions don't work right), but try pasting this in there for a fun little demo:

Code:

cs

to tree :depth
   if :depth < 1 [ stop ]
   fd :depth lt 45
   tree (:depth * 4 / 7 ) rt 90
   tree (:depth * 4 / 7 ) lt 45
   bk :depth
end

to spiral :size
   if  :size > 30 [stop]
   tree :size fd :size rt 15       
   spiral :size *1.02   
end

spiral 1

[Yegolev]

Pasted that into UCB since I have it idling.  Definitely helped me to break into the mindset, thanks.

Kodu, not sure if I like it a lot.  Will try it out more but so far it seems pretty anemic.

[Samwise]

I finally installed the Kodu beta last night and wasn't all that impressed by the UI.  I found dragging their silly tiles around much more cumbersome than just being able to type the fucking commands in would be.  A lot of interesting ideas, especially with how streamlined the "language" seems to be, but the execution as a whole is wanting IMO.

[Yegolev]

Works better on the 360, if only because you don't wish you could use your keyboard to just type things in.  That said, I need to get the boy more interested in WORDS.

[Tarami]

Get with the times grandpa, it's QWORDS nowadays.

[Samwise]

Works better on the 360, if only because you don't wish you could use your keyboard to just type things in.

Yeah, it was pretty obviously designed to be used with a controller.  My first exercise in the language was trying to convert one of their examples to work with the arrow keys instead of a thumbstick so I could play with it.  I accidentally deleted one of the rules while trying to add a new one, couldn't figure out how to get it back, and decided that if I was doing this at five years old I'd already be in tears by this point.

[Grimwell]

Works better on the 360, if only because you don't wish you could use your keyboard to just type things in.

Yeah, it was pretty obviously designed to be used with a controller.  My first exercise in the language was trying to convert one of their examples to work with the arrow keys instead of a thumbstick so I could play with it.  I accidentally deleted one of the rules while trying to add a new one, couldn't figure out how to get it back, and decided that if I was doing this at five years old I'd already be in tears by this point.

You are wrong. The five year old would have deleted the rule on purpose and made a looping program that runs the little Kodu guy off the edge of the map and to his death. After five minutes of giggling at this he'd create a mountain as high as the game allows, raise the water levels, and put a motorcycle under the avatar, who's still running to the edge of the watery world and falling to his death.

...but I have kids what would I know? 

[Yegolev]

I'm bringing this back because of recent developments.  My son has decided he wants to make games, and more specifically he has an idea for a game that is called Fruit vs Vegetables.  He tells me all about it in the car on the way to school, in the way that only a seven-year-old can, and I tell him that I can help him make a game but he is going to have to do all the work and learn how to program.

The summary is that I redownloaded Kodu (or sometimes Dooku, it is called) and we spent between one and two hours try to get some Kodu to do what he wanted.  It is definitely oversimplified, and even he sees that, but it is so far a great vehicle for teaching basic concepts such as the fact a computer does what you tell it to instead of what you want it to do, as well as the iterative process.  I'm priming him for typing, but for now this is working fine.

On the business side, he tells me this morning that he is going to have to pay one of his classmates since he is going to contribute some art.   Also he wants to learn Swedish so that he can ask the guy who made Angry Birds if my son can make Angry Birds 2.  Boggle!

[Mrbloodworth]

Try torque 2d for his project instead.

[Yegolev]

[Mrbloodworth]

 

[Yegolev]

I'm in a crap mood today.  Once we've run the course with Kodu, which should not be long, we will move to something else.  Also the boy will need his own computer.

[Hawkbit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iruelDUBDQs&feature=player_embedded

Realized later that I did't put in a description, so I'm a fixin'.  14 yr old kid develops very popular iPhone app, 2million downloads.  Free app, but imagine if he had charged.  Working on another game, next one will be pay.

[Yegolev]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iruelDUBDQs&feature=player_embedded