Players grass Blizzard GM up for naming violation, get bans

[Rasix]

I was 19. Killing someone and then putting flour sacks around their corpse (when ghosts were solid) was comedy gold at the time. You don't see me doing that anymore, but I'm not about to be ashamed of what I did or feel bad for having fun at the time. It was fun, it was funny, too bad Spleen doesn't have his archive up anymore.

Back on topic, stuff like cash farmers and game breaking exploits can alter the delicate balance of a game.  This becomes more magnified in a pvp environment.  It's not just a matter of annoyance at the idiot spamming his crap for sale and then throwing the gold he gets on ebay.  It's a shift in balance that could mean life or death in the battlefield.  You can't get the dagger you need because some keke la~ cash farmer has been sitting there for the past 24 hours.  

AND IT'S BLOODY ANNOYING.  Ebay cash farmers annoy me more than elves. If I could kill them on my server, I would. I would sell them out to the other side given the other chance.

[Pineapple]

but I struggle to understand how anyone could think that their fun is more important than the fun of another.  We're all responsible for our own behavior.  

This is the age of Jackass, so it only gets worse.

Not that anyone here is an actual Jackass, I refer to the show and that sort of mentality. I had my fun in UO too.

But this is why these online games have to design for this sort of thing. This is why you remove factions from being able to smack talk each other. This is why WoW's PVP blows, because it is all too easy to prey upon lowbies for sport all day and be a general asshole. It was easier in UO, I will point out.

For no other reason, then "I can". That is why they do it.

This is why the old mentality of "players policing themselves" doesnt work in an MMOG. It is an outdated thought process carried over from when online games were just MUDs, 50 people max in size and everyone knew each other very well. That age is dead to the average gamer.

[Nebu]

Back on topic, stuff like cash farmers and game breaking exploits can alter the delicate balance of a game.  This becomes more magnified in a pvp environment.  It's not just a matter of annoyance at the idiot spamming his crap for sale and then throwing the gold he gets on ebay.  It's a shift in balance that could mean life or death in the battlefield.  You can't get the dagger you need because some keke la~ cash farmer has been sitting there for the past 24 hours.  

AND IT'S BLOODY ANNOYING.  Ebay cash farmers annoy me more than elves. If I could kill them on my server, I would. I would sell them out to the other side given the other chance.

I agree completely.  The problem needs to be dealt with at the source.  What can be done?  Here are some very fundamental suggestions, many of which have been posted here and on other boards for years.

1) Make a game that is so fun and compelling that people won't want to buy their way out of parts of it.  This is by far the hardest... and seems damn near impossible with the current iteration of mmogs.  If the game were fun and engaging, people would be much less likely to want to avoid parts.  This eliminates the need for farmers to get items for cash sale to those that don't want to spend the time getting them for themselves.

2) Offer the items direct from the developer.  This is starting to be more common.  I don't like this idea, but it does have a more controlled effect on the economy and the game balance.  Particularly on a pvp server as you have described.  

3) Find a way to discourage farming: Hit it hard and hit it often.  This is difficult at best.  It requires a lot of resources and has the potential to produce instances of punishing the innocent.  Also (as we've seen in so many cases) legal action in these matters is still an ill defined area.    

4) Others.  I'm not all that creative, so I'm sure that I'm forgetting something.

Of course #1 would be the best solution.  When designers invest this kind of money in development, they are aiming at a large target market.  This demographic will encompass a great variety of playstyles and there will be many many aspects of the game that will be unfun to varying individuals.  This being the case, there will always be a demand for farmed items.  Demand begets supply.

[Paelos]

I'd say if you filter out everybody with a playtime of under 12 hours a day, that's a good start to finding your hardcore farmers and bots. Then check the locales. Do they spend 75% or more in one zone? Hmmm, are they making frequent mailings of rare items, HMMMMMM?

[Pineapple]

I'd say if you filter out everybody with a playtime of under 12 hours a day, that's a good start to finding your hardcore farmers and bots. Then check the locales. Do they spend 75% or more in one zone? Hmmm, are they making frequent mailings of rare items, HMMMMMM?

My idea for bots:

WoW already has an occasional unexpected mob wandering a wider circle in an area. This can kill a bot. Basically do more monster roaming that is difficult to make a script against. Eventually the bot dies.

So on to the bot getting ressed. You know those protection pictures when signing up to some forums? It is a pic of some squiggly random numbers / letters, maybe with a wavey line through it.

Use that at the exit to the graveyard. You want out? Type that in. As soon as the bot dies, his XP farming is over for that day.

[sidereal]

You know those protection pictures when signing up to some forums? It is a pic of some squiggly random numbers / letters, maybe with a wavey line through it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha">Captcha.  That's a fucking gold idea.  Please call someone at Blizzard with it.

Only downside. . if you send the text down and expect the client to obfuscate it they can just pull it out of memory, so you have to send the image down whole.  Bit of a bandwidth hog.  Probably worth it.

[Nija]

People aren't using actual "bots" yet, they are just using slave labor southeast asians on Cyrix machines.

I'm not griefing lowbies, although I could do that, I guess. Griefing level 60 farmers is much, much more entertaining.

oh yeah, check out notsecret dot spleens dot net

[MrHat]

People aren't using actual "bots" yet, they are just using slave labor southeast asians on Cyrix machines.

I'm not griefing lowbies, although I could do that, I guess. Griefing level 60 farmers is much, much more entertaining.

oh yeah, check out notsecret dot spleens dot net

Where about are these spots? I would love to partake of the merriment w/ my Rogue.

[Nija]

People aren't using actual "bots" yet, they are just using slave labor southeast asians on Cyrix machines.

I'm not griefing lowbies, although I could do that, I guess. Griefing level 60 farmers is much, much more entertaining.

oh yeah, check out notsecret dot spleens dot net

Where about are these spots? I would love to partake of the merriment w/ my Rogue.

Forgive the very politically incorrect picture.

http://nija.r33t.org/wow/final/Aszhara.jpg

Another spot to check is Deadwind Pass (between duskwood and swamp of sorrows) and also, level 60 farmers like to prey on the lowly Venture Co lumbermill near the lake in Stranglethorn. Those lanters that they drop (often) will sell for like 16s.

In deadwind, they'll be going after some ogres - I forget the name of the sub-zone, but it's right on the road, can't miss it.

[jpark]

I guess I do not understand this thread - so no offense will be taken when holes in my logic may be highlighted:

Farming.  This will only break the game for non-instanced drops and the value of currency.  Rampant inflation EQ style will occur but raid drops will continue to be rare - as they are difficult for solo farmers to tackle.  I see a two teir economy - common drops will be trash - raid instanced drops will hold their value.

Ebay.  I don't have a problem if folks buy stuff off of ebay.  If you have a problem with this and want barriers against it - then put barriers against the unemployed or those that forfeit sex - so they can be online to farm at any time for any length of time.  If I can't spend 10 bucks on ebay to get my jboots - then penalize Johnny so can't just drop 12 hours into the game to get the good that real life prevents me from getting.  Equalize.

Gankers.  You guys don't talk about it much:  reputation.  Ganking in Shadowbane was easy, since by catass or macro - you could level a new character in about 2 weeks.  In a game like WoW - while leveling is easy - it is not as bad as shadowbane.  It takes time to build a character.  This is the advantage of a treadmill - investment in an avatar - makes it difficult to be an ass - since the getting help for instanced encounters will be less available.

Gankers - this is why I play a healer.  In most games my skills will be very needed - and I keep a little list of assholes.  And sooner or later *rubs hands* they fall into my political cross hairs.  Now that is fun.  Fuck quests - I enjoy revenge and retribution.

So I miss the point of the discussion here - I see no real issues so far as WoW is concerned.  What am I missing?

[Threash]

Raid and instance drops have jack all to do with the economy since not one of them is droppable though.

[Calantus]

I made a "post" on a way to stop ebaying one day and haven't bothered to post it up, but I'l summarize it here since it's relevant.

Right now, WoW is setup such that all transfer of items can be monitored by blizzard. That is, you can't just drop something on the floor and have someone pick it up. You can only use the AH, trade window, or mail system to move items between players. If blizzard had a database of all item types on the server with min-max estimates of worth they could check the balance of every transfer made in the game.

Once they establish that a trade is unbalanced then they can flag the trade as suspect. After a number of suspect trades the account is flagged as suspect and then someone goes through logs of the character activity (logs made either before or after the account is flagged suspect). That way they can see if the trades are still suspect while looking at the logs "Hi I'm Mr X from Ebay I want my sword" would be a good one, but multiple trades just happening for no reason might be another.

I'm sure there will be workarounds possible, but it would make it a pain in the ass for everyone invilved to do them, and cut alot of casual gamers out of the market.

Naturally guildies and friends would have to be immune/resistant to these checks after a certain time of being in the guild/friend list.

Anyway, what do people think? Big pain in the ass and alot of work, but I think it's the only way to do it properly if serious about it.

[Righ]

There is always the familiar police trick - Blizzard buys something on eBay themselves and "arrests" the fence during trade. Costs money, but so does dedicating any staff time to the matter.

[Jayce]

This is why WoW's PVP blows, because it is all too easy to prey upon lowbies for sport all day and be a general asshole.

I would like to note, only on PvP servers.  And there, you (and me) are asking for it.  Some people like the danger of possibly being ganked.  Others don't.  Que sera sera, c'est la vie, and viva la revolucion.

1) Make a game that is so fun and compelling that people won't want to buy their way out of parts of it.

I really can't see that the market for WoW items and gold is that much.  I'm the very definition of casual, and I'm level 27 with enough gold to buy what I want.  You really have to be the type that opens Christmas presents on Dec 1 to want to buy your way through this game.

I'm sure the market will be there, but much reduced compared to grinds like DAOC, EQ1/2, Lineage, etc.  I think we will see a reduction as the farmers realize that WoW is too actually fun to be that lucrative a market.  Especially if Blizzard turns the screw some also.

[Nebu]

I really can't see that the market for WoW items and gold is that much.  I'm the very definition of casual, and I'm level 27 with enough gold to buy what I want.  You really have to be the type that opens Christmas presents on Dec 1 to want to buy your way through this game.

I'm sure the market will be there, but much reduced compared to grinds like DAOC, EQ1/2, Lineage, etc.  I think we will see a reduction as the farmers realize that WoW is too actually fun to be that lucrative a market.  Especially if Blizzard turns the screw some also.

If Blizzard successfully implements the battlegrounds for PvP as they have promised, it will be then that the market will show the greatest growth.  Battlegrounds will provide a competitive reason to drive the endgame and thus create a market for those that want to enjoy the endgame without the grind to get there.

Considering the number of PvP enthusiasts that left DAoC to play WoW, you can expect that level 60, coveted template items, and min/maxxer gear will soon generate a market.  I'll also bet that you start seeing more sites that will PL toons to 60 for people as well as EBAY auctions for level 60 characters.  

I tested the game. While I'll agree that Blizzard has done well to provide fun in an mmog, the treadmill to the endgame is still quite noticable.

[Sky]

the treadmill to the endgame is still quite noticable

I guess some people will always see it that way. With WoW, it's too bad, because it's a great ride to the endgame. I'd hate to have missed it trying to PL up or buying a maxed out character. Different strokes, I guess.

[chinslim]

I tested the game. While I'll agree that Blizzard has done well to provide fun in an mmog, the treadmill to the endgame is still quite noticable.

Exactly what endgame are you treadmilling to?

Not having an endgame to race to is actually relaxing.  I'm having a good time with the quests and dungeons, and the occasional pvp 'throwdowns' that happen on pvp servers.

[Nebu]

Exactly what endgame are you treadmilling to?

Disclaimer: We all like what we like.  If you find my views differing with yours, it may be because we have a different definition of "fun".  Don't be alarmed, this is a perfectly healthy thing.  

In answer to your question: None.  After my beta experience there wasn't a reason to buy the game.  So I didn't.  I've whacked foozles and run FedEX quests in every mmog that I can think of.  While Blizzard has succeeded in making a game that sucks less than its predecessors, it's still the same horse and pony show I've done before.  

Now, on the slim chance that I were to come back to play WoW,  it would be for their implementation of a PvP system.  The proposed Battlegrounds looks intriguing and may be worthy of extracting some cash from me.  Of course, the fun in this system will likely be a part of the endgame requiring significant foozle whacking to reach level 60.  Since it's the game at 60 that I wish to play for my "fun", the stuff along the way appears as a treadmill to me.  

I hope this covers it.

[shiznitz]

Huh? You arent the same Nebu as the guy/Blizzard employee in the Kali Campton outrage?

[Jayce]

Huh? You arent the same Nebu as the guy/Blizzard employee in the Kali Campton outrage?

lol?

[shiznitz]

Clearly...

[Signe]

Poor Nebu.  :(

[Nebu]

You know... I started using this handle about 11 years ago when I was an area designer for a semi-obscure mud.  I always knew one day that it would slap me in the face.

That day is today.

[Signe]

My typing fingers are crying harder than they have ever cried before.

[Threash]

Wow, thanks for that picture i went there tonight with my lvl 50 rogue and damn is that a nice leveling spot.  Shit load of level 50-52 mobs with what appeared to me to be less than normal AC and HPs, i was tearing through them at an alarming rate and i was sharing the spawn with around 10 other people.  Good loot was extremely rare, two greens in a couple hours, but their regular loot sold pretty well not to mention they are all skinnable so i left with 130 thick leathers and about 30 rugged ones.