7th Circuit Court of Appeals Upholds A Ban on D&D In Prisons

[CmdrSlack]

Seriously.

The court agreed with the decision of prison administrators, who determined that playing D&D could lead to gang-like behavior and escape fantasies. This stuff doesn't get much sillier.

Here's the NYT article.

Here's the opinion.

While the court may get the constitutional standard right here, I think this is friggin ridiculous.

[Samwise]

[Slyfeind]

I was talking to some coworkers about this. I think the gut instinct among gamers is to go "OMG another witch hunt!" But for one thing, it sounds like the court was at least familiar with the game. Also, one of the purposes of roleplaying, and most games for that matter, is to exercise those thoughts that we don't have a chance to in real life. And if I was running a D&D game in prison, you can bet the campaign would involve some sort of jail break at some point.

So I did some searching for other games used for nefarious ends in prison. For the most part, not much. Chess is another likely culprit in my opinion, but it seems to have a calming effect on prisoners.

So far, I'm tempted to depend this on the security level of the prison. If they have TV and playing cards, they might as well have D&D too. Higher levels of security though...they're in fucking prison. Why should they have lots of fun games to play?

[Samwise]

The stupid thing about banning RPGs (I assume the ban was on all RPGs, not just D&D specifically) is that there are plenty of "storyteller" RPG systems that don't need books and dice, and I'd think would be much more likely to lead to "nefarious ends"; D&D is more likely to be a positive influence in that it's full of structure and rules and most of the game books emphasize "heroic" roleplaying.  So what do you do, ban prisoners from talking to each other?

[Grimwell]

I get the feeling this thread is destined for politics...

In my opinion, if the prisoners have time to play games we are doing prison wrong.

I'm serious.

[Samwise]

I get the feeling this thread is destined for politics...

In my opinion, if the prisoners have time to play games we are doing prison wrong.

I'm serious.

It's not at all impressive when you make a prediction like that if you immediately follow it with a statement calculated to make your prediction come true.

[Ingmar]

That's 3 times in the same thread Samwise has beaten me to saying something I was going to say (or link).  

[Slyfeind]

I'm just saying that using the blanket "It's a fantasy game so is therefore safe and good clean fun for everyone!" is not always a good idea. I have a severely schizophrenic cousin that I would never play D&D with. I'm not saying that D&D causes suicide. But I wouldn't take that chance, because she's my cousin and I want her to not be dead. I also wouldn't watch horror movies with her. I don't know for a fact that it could trigger a psychotic episode, but again, that's not a chance I want to take.

Edit: was "it could cause a psychotic episode." I didn't want to get called on semantics. :P

[Grimwell]

I get the feeling this thread is destined for politics...

In my opinion, if the prisoners have time to play games we are doing prison wrong.

I'm serious.

It's not at all impressive when you make a prediction like that if you immediately follow it with a statement calculated to make your prediction come true.

Yes, but I'm not dressed to impress today.

I just had that thought, "Hrm, this won't last." as I was going in to deliver my personal response to it. The "I'm serious." was to try to make it clear that I wasn't looking to be clever.

I think prisons should be more about having people digging holes all day, and other bouts of pointless labor. They don't need to be abused, but prisoners don't need idle time.

[Selby]

I think prisons should be more about having people digging holes all day, and other bouts of pointless labor. They don't need to be abused, but prisoners don't need idle time.

A friend of mine was a prison guard.  He hated budget cuts and all of the "take things away from prisoners!" campaigns, because since they couldn't make the prisoners work, they sat in their cells all day or sat around all day.  When the prisoners have lots of idle time on their hands, they start fucking with the guards.  With TV, weights, and cards, he said they were at least occupied and didn't really screw with the guards too much.

[taolurker]

I'd actually prefer they have other things to do besides life weights, because then you end up with criminal mountains, and this was something that is both good and bad (keep them fit, but make them more dangerous).

[Grimwell]

A friend of mine was a prison guard.  He hated budget cuts and all of the "take things away from prisoners!" campaigns, because since they couldn't make the prisoners work, they sat in their cells all day or sat around all day.  When the prisoners have lots of idle time on their hands, they start fucking with the guards.  With TV, weights, and cards, he said they were at least occupied and didn't really screw with the guards too much.

That there is a problem in my eyes. Perhaps the Supreme Court can overturn that for us too? :)

Edited to fix quote

[Goreschach]

Give them videogames.

Not only will it keep them busy, but they'll be out of shape and non-threatening when they get out.

[Grimwell]

Mountain Dew and Cheese Poofs too!

I like how you think.

[Tarami]

Combine both your ideas and you get MMO sweatshops, then distribute the farmed gold among the tax payers.

[CmdrSlack]

You know, instead of stamping license plates, they could farm gold.

I like the above idea and could actually have a plan together by end of business tomorrow. (By, "above idea," I mean the post above mine.)

It'd be an easy sell to the "video games are bad" crowd in politics -- by doing this, we get back at those murder-simulator creators!



That said, I was seriously hoping that this would spawn a debate about the finer points of First Amendment law and the abrogated rights of prisoners.


Fake edit -- It's better than prisoners LARPing. LIGHTNING BOLT!

[Slyfeind]

Screw that! D&D's dangerous! 

[Tarami]

That said, I was seriously hoping that this would spawn a debate about the finer points of First Amendment law and the abrogated rights of prisoners.

You should have posted it in Politics. By posting it in here, everyone's wary of going there.

[Bzalthek]

playing D&D could lead to gang-like behavior

I thought just being in prison (as prisons exist today) leads to gang-like behavior.

[Signe]

Maybe they're getting a gang of thugs confused with a group of nerds? 

I try not to think too hard about what prisoners do in prison.  Imagining a bunch of smelly hairy murdering skinhead bikers sitting around a table and pretending to be elves and priests doesn't help my brain much.  Of course, I try not to think too hard about what elves and priests do in their spare time, too. 

[Numtini]

It's always hard to tell with prisoners, there's probably more behind the scenes that isn't making it into articles.

The stuff like the religious freedom case that was about a "church" that required you to eat steak and drink bourbon every friday. If the prison is claiming it "could" be used to fantasize about escapes, chances are there were extensive maps of escape routes in the guys "manuscript."

[Nebu]

The only problem I could see with D&D is that it may cause additional conflict, but ANY game will cause that.  I think banning D&D is a serious mistake.  It encourages teamwork, enhances imagination, and aids in rudimentary math understanding.  The issue is much larger than D&D here.  Society wants prison to be a place of suffering rather than a place of rehabilitation.  That's a bigger obstacle to overcome.   

[Sky]

As long as they stick to chaotic evil, it's ok. Once they start rolling up lawful evils guys, gotta shut it down.

[Teleku]

[Merusk]

That said, I was seriously hoping that this would spawn a debate about the finer points of First Amendment law and the abrogated rights of prisoners.

You should have posted it in Politics. By posting it in here, everyone's wary of going there.

There is no love of the First Amendment among the majority of the constituents of the US. Talk to anyone about freedom of speech and they're all for it, until you bring up something they're against.  For example, the Nazi Party that just adopted a highway in Colorado, or when the KKK tried to adopt a section somewhere a few years ago. 

These aren't seen as examples of America living by those values she was founded on.  Giving people a platform to express their views, while giving you the opportunity to publicly denounce and debate them.  No, instead it is seen as:
 

Welcome to "multiculturalism", the PC movement, and 21st century america. There isn't a loony tune cause that's too crazy to fit under that rainbow.

Yes, indeed there isn't.  That's part of the beauty of the system and it makes me proud to live in a culture and society that protects even the right of these 'loonies' to say (but not do) what they want.   But I'm not  most people.

There is no love of due process among the populace, either.  As news sources search more and more for the latest depravity to exploit, the sentiment that the justice system is "inherently and fundamentally broken" gains greater traction.  People I've known for years are turning to the sentiment that, 'just because' someone was beaten by the cops or a prosecutor hides some flawed evidence or fouls-up on a procedural move, if the public "knows" someone is guilty they should be jailed.  Or "better yet" if they've caused someone harm, let's blind them.  I've heard, "Bring back an eye for an eye!" more than I care to recount, and from people I used to consider moderately sane and intelligent.

I expect to see these formerly fundamental freedoms and rights as nothing more than words on an old piece of paper sometime in the next 20 years.

[Johny Cee]

All f13 threads eventually lead to LotR.   

[NowhereMan]

I expect to see these formerly fundamental freedoms and rights as nothing more than words on an old piece of paper sometime in the next 20 years.

I love when people who claim to be 'strict constitutionalists' come up with these sorts of positions. It's like they think the Founding Fathers really wanted to introduce mob rule as a justice system but the quill slipped and they accidentally wrote in a large legal system designed to help minimise the chances of mistrials and open to accommodating advances in investigations, etc. Obviously what they really meant to do was hang people if they looked shifty.