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Author Topic: Tear apart our design ideas...  (Read 19119 times)
LordDax
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on: January 10, 2005, 09:22:28 AM

With the recent demise of Wish and a glut of MMOGs out there with only a few actually worth playing(IMHO--EQ2,SWG:JtL, UO,WoW) I know we as a gaming community have said more than once to ourselves "What the hell is this in here for?" or "I wish they had chosen to do xxx over xxx" or "Why can't I be a 200ft tall dwarf?"

So why not be creative and go out on a limb? Why not attempt to come up with the ideal F13 MMOG design/production plan? There certainly must be enough collective gaming experience and technical know-how to give it a decent shot. There will be a fair number topics we'll have to tackle but I think if we take em in order we should be able to come up with something at least midly feasible. Who knows it might end up even being pitched!

The discussion structure for this topic will probably be leaving each step of the design plan open for 2-3 days then moving onto another step after reaching a reasonable consenus.

Allright with all that out of the way I think one of the key factors about keeping gamers playing a MMOG is a decent underlying evolvable plot.  We've all played our share of MMOGs (and regular games with good plots), so what were some parts of the plot line that kept us coming back to the game?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
Nebu
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Reply #1 on: January 10, 2005, 09:25:48 AM

I take it that you'll be the one providing the $50 million operating budget?

EDIT: Please be to reading the Game Development Thread.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #2 on: January 10, 2005, 09:26:59 AM

And the code monkies!

Delicious delicious monkies.



LordDax, your progressive construction way of thought scares me.
schild
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Reply #3 on: January 10, 2005, 09:27:15 AM

Sweet creeping jesus, I'm tempted to delete this thread.

This won't end well.
Nebu
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Reply #4 on: January 10, 2005, 09:29:59 AM

Quote from: schild
Sweet creeping jesus, I'm tempted to delete this thread.


Not too fast... the new guys need a warm welcome.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #5 on: January 10, 2005, 09:35:48 AM

You know what would totally make a new game like that?

Celebrity Endorsements.

Imagine playing a game where you might have a chance of having a chance of being on the same server as Jennifer Garner.

Oh man, that would be stellar.
schild
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Reply #6 on: January 10, 2005, 09:36:31 AM

Quote from: MrHat
Imagine playing a game where you might have a chance of having a chance of being on the same server as Jennifer Garner.

Oh man, that would be stellar.


As funny as that was, and it was funny, get a new shtick. Thanks.
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #7 on: January 10, 2005, 09:42:19 AM

Quote from: schild
Quote from: MrHat
Imagine playing a game where you might have a chance of having a chance of being on the same server as Jennifer Garner.

Oh man, that would be stellar.


As funny as that was, and it was funny, get a new shtick. Thanks.


Sorry, I'm procrastinating in my search for inspirado.
LordDax
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Reply #8 on: January 10, 2005, 09:51:55 AM

Actually, believe it or not, this is an attempt by our start-up DreamSquad studio to come up with a decent design plan to pitch to our investors. We were hoping that a thread like this could come up with a better plan than a team of 25 guys(and 2 girls) sitting around in a room doing it by ourselves.  But like all game studio start-ups we could be part of that 80% that flop, so there may or may not be a point to this anyway.

However with recent commentws,  I think it might be easier to get our ideas critiqued, commented and castrated by the f13 community. So why not start with the overlying topic

Would the market/general public even be interested in a new MMGO? If so, would a modern day fantasy style one(ie swords and sorcery + technology) have an mass market appeal or would it be a niche title?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #9 on: January 10, 2005, 10:26:18 AM

Do you have any ideas at all?

It would be easier for us to critique, comment, and castrate your ideas if you could lay out what you have.

Easier than asking us broad questions.

And yes, modern day fantasy (magic + tech) always has a good appeal.
Nebu
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Reply #10 on: January 10, 2005, 10:35:43 AM

LordDax,

While quite noble, you're soliciting commentary from a community of jaded gamers.  The sad truth is that most of the people here are intelligent, mature, and insightful making them atypical targets for a profitable new MMOG.  While there have been many good ideas generated in these forums, it seems unlikely they could ever be pitched as the basis for a new mmog.  The game ideas found here could only be considered for a niche market and therefore difficult to find backing for.  

If you want good ideas for a profitable game that the general mouth-breathing computer gaming public will buy, start with WoW and go from there.  Smooth-running cartoonish graphics + dumbed-down console-style gameplay + brand recognition = PROFIT!  Sadly this seems the current formula for MMOG success.

EDIT: I forgot a treadmill and the *DING* sound... gotta have those.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Signe
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Reply #11 on: January 10, 2005, 10:48:25 AM

Hush, you jaded people.  Don't discourage him.  Maybe he can code the Bat Country MUD.  If he does a good job, we can take up a collection and start him on his way to Raphdom.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
LordDax
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Reply #12 on: January 10, 2005, 11:00:38 AM

You make a good point Nebu. And most of the majority of our staff, wants to actually create a game for the jaded ones(even though I keep warning them of profits..). In response to MrHat, we do have one idea that everything seems to hinge upon.

After some brainstorming in recent months we want to see if it would be possible to create a game with a, what we are calling, "overlord" system to keep gamers playing. Our working idea of the system is that in the initial stages of gameplay, players must survive the dragkons(more on them later, but think of them as the mystical missing link),  returning to "Earth" and retaking their place as "demigods".  After a period of initial ruling the dragkon's begin warring amongst each other attempting to wrest control of the entire planet. This opens up the overlord system. A player can attempt to become overlord of the entire world by fighting/negotating his way to the top. The overlord gets a large amount of power over other aspects of the game (international relations, taxations, global contests, holy wars, just some of the things we are thinking about.) Another player can attempt to become his dragkon's overlord by deposing the old overlord or inheriting it. And like with all overlords, there will always be an underground resistance....

Can you castrate that one MrHat?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
WindupAtheist
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Reply #13 on: January 10, 2005, 11:01:19 AM

Take UO, change the names of stuff so you don't get sued, and remake it with 3d shiny.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Soukyan
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Reply #14 on: January 10, 2005, 12:02:03 PM

Quote from: WindupAtheist
Take UO, change the names of stuff so you don't get sued, and remake it with 3d shiny.


You mean do what Wish was attempting to do? Yeah, that'll work.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
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Nebu
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Reply #15 on: January 10, 2005, 12:11:59 PM

Quote from: LordDax
You make a good point Nebu. And most of the majority of our staff, wants to actually create a game for the jaded ones(even though I keep warning them of profits..).


If you could make a game that was fun without being repetitive, where skill was a greater factor than time played, and that rewarded complex problem solving...

Ok, who am I kidding? I'd still probably find a way to bash it.  I do like what you have to say... you don't work for Alienware, do you?

Quote from: LordDax
After some brainstorming in recent months we want to see if it would be possible to create a game with a, what we are calling, "overlord" system to keep gamers playing. Our working idea of the system is that in the initial stages of gameplay, players must survive the dragkons(more on them later, but think of them as the mystical missing link), returning to "Earth" and retaking their place as "demigods". After a period of initial ruling the dragkon's begin warring amongst each other attempting to wrest control of the entire planet. This opens up the overlord system. A player can attempt to become overlord of the entire world by fighting/negotating his way to the top. The overlord gets a large amount of power over other aspects of the game (international relations, taxations, global contests, holy wars, just some of the things we are thinking about.) Another player can attempt to become his dragkon's overlord by deposing the old overlord or inheriting it. And like with all overlords, there will always be an underground resistance....


I think you'll have to come up with more detail on game mechanics before you'll get any useful commentary.  Storyline is easy, implementation is hard.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
LordDax
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Reply #16 on: January 10, 2005, 12:25:15 PM

What? You mean you didn't see my antenna? Nebu makes the point of skill VS time.  Do you guys know of any game that attempts to address this problem so we can take a look at it? If not, then what type of skill? The option that I can see is the type of skill required of an RTS, so maybe intergrate a large scale battle system for countries going to war? Someting along the lines each soldier would be a player of that country who has chosen to take part in the event ? Or if there is not enough playerbase perhaps each participating player is in command of an AI regiment, their superior officer in charge of them, etc etc. Anyone think this would be an aspect of gameplay that would pass intergration into the game and make the game more robust and invovling for the jaded set?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #17 on: January 10, 2005, 01:19:23 PM

Quote from: LordDax
What? You mean you didn't see my antenna? Nebu makes the point of skill VS time.  Do you guys know of any game that attempts to address this problem so we can take a look at it? If not, then what type of skill? The option that I can see is the type of skill required of an RTS, so maybe intergrate a large scale battle system for countries going to war? Someting along the lines each soldier would be a player of that country who has chosen to take part in the event ? Or if there is not enough playerbase perhaps each participating player is in command of an AI regiment, their superior officer in charge of them, etc etc. Anyone think this would be an aspect of gameplay that would pass intergration into the game and make the game more robust and invovling for the jaded set?


Mixing a classic first person mmorpg with "something else" may sound good, but a) that's a pretty steep curve to do for a first title (i.e designing 2 good interfaces and game systems), and b) they are plenty of good examples of seperate titles (if people want to play a good RTS, why would they be in your game to begin with?).

The rule of the day seems to be, make it fun from the get go, which pretty well means focusing your efforts on just a few game systems and doing them really well.  Try to throw in everything and the kitchen sink and you're dead.

So, what are you're teams strengths and backgrounds?  Play to your strengths rather than try to reinvent the wheel.

In terms of skills vs time, consider a model of gameplay more similar to MtG or what GW is trying: you can learn/buy/find a huge number of skills/powers/items but can only use a few of them in any given adventure session.  People with more time will be able to gain a larger number of skills to choose from, but since the system has built in limitations it would not dilute player skills.  But be aware this approach would be much harder to balance, so you must also be resolved to tweak. adjust/nerf without regards to whining.  Just whatever you do, please, no more "auto-attack and make a sandwich" styles of combat.

And no goats.

So make with the details so we can poke more holes please.

Xilren

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shiznitz
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Reply #18 on: January 10, 2005, 01:22:50 PM

1) Ban the concept of exp from your dev team.

2) Using a skill-based system, let people "max" a character in 50-60 hours.

3) Lots of skills but not infinite mix-and-match.

4) Everyone starts with 100hps and it never goes up. Ok maybe 20-25pts with the right skills.

5) Animals are for eating, not fighting.  

6) Monsters should be able to horde and conquer NPC towns with mechanics for the players to fight back the horde/re-take the town.

7) No mezz/paralyze/stun/root spells.

8) Tank mages suck.

9) When working in a group, bonus to skills - either faster skill gain or bonus tohit/dmg/etc.

I have never played WoW.
Azhrarn
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Reply #19 on: January 10, 2005, 01:23:12 PM

Quote from: LordDax
Would the market/general public even be interested in a new MMGO? If so, would a modern day fantasy style one(ie swords and sorcery + technology) have an mass market appeal or would it be a niche title?


This may be more up your alley if you move past looking for free consulting. :p (and have money to burn)

*hides*

I came here to be drugged, electrocuted, and probed.  Not insulted! - H.S.
LordDax
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Reply #20 on: January 10, 2005, 02:09:44 PM

Allright time to tackle your comments. I'll start with Xilren. We aren't really talking about true RTS persay, because you are absolutely right. Why would someone buy our game if they can find a more engaging RTS from an establish game house? We are thinking more of the RTS battle strutcture, different player types, player skill sets, chains of command, and tactics. If we don't end up sacraficing our ideas for feasiblilty and intergration, we would love to see an army/battalion of players vs another army/battalion of players , with the "officer" players actually drawing up battle plans and co-ordinating attacks in realtime with all their subordinates.  

One of our members has really gotten into the GW scene and has been talking about not following a strictly lv based system but more of a skill tree. For instance, your army could be great at a certain point in time because one of your "officers" has risen through the ranks and gained a few leadership skills that give benefits to the group he commands. We've also tossed around the idea of actually having to recruit players to join your army which could help with the economic system. Recrutiment could be done through a number of means, we've discussed standard salaries and also "fame&infamy". Fame and Infamy can be used in a number of ways which we are currently discussing but include help reducing salaries because of inspired soldiers who gain additonal benefits from being in a "Famed" unit, giving access to certain events(state balls, international confreneces, etc)

Quite a number of our members have very specialized fields when we decided to form a company in our attempt to create a game. We have human/computer interfacing specialists, graphics designers (3d animation), cinematics, and a few other specialized areas. Our knowledge of languages and systems spans a We haven't decided on what coding process we are going to use, because we want to finish our design plan first and then find the best way to get it off paper.

Shiznits-thanks alot of the list. I'll make sure it show up on our round table. Im actually quite intrigued by number 6. Anyone else care to comment on monsters being "active participants" in the game? In going along with our "war" system I think players taking player towns might be an interesting concept as well.

Azharn-We've looked into market research companies.  We are in talks with local university professors and grad students to do some of our research, as we are located in a large academic area.

Any comments on the system I described at the top?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
Stephen Zepp
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Reply #21 on: January 10, 2005, 02:13:34 PM

Only comment I have is that the RTS Commander down to player level is being done already--we're just not talking about it much at the moment!

Rumors of War
Nebu
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Reply #22 on: January 10, 2005, 02:20:58 PM

Quote from: LordDax
We are thinking more of the RTS battle strutcture, different player types, player skill sets, chains of command, and tactics.


1. "Chains of commands" smacks of macros.  This leads to unattended/uninteresting gameplay.  If I don't have a means to think on the fly, I become a spectator.  

2. If there is a role of general, more will wish to fill that role than are equipped or are needed.  

3. Tactics.  Yes, please!

Quote from: LordDax
One of our members has really gotten into the GW scene and has been talking about not following a strictly lv based system but more of a skill tree. For instance, your army could be great at a certain point in time because one of your "officers" has risen through the ranks and gained a few leadership skills that give benefits to the group he commands. We've also tossed around the idea of actually having to recruit players to join your army which could help with the economic system. Recrutiment could be done through a number of means, we've discussed standard salaries and also "fame&infamy". Fame and Infamy can be used in a number of ways which we are currently discussing but include help reducing salaries because of inspired soldiers who gain additonal benefits from being in a "Famed" unit, giving access to certain events(state balls, international confreneces, etc)


Once an army defeats its opponents, they will grow to a size and economic stature that will be discouraging to opposing players.  Meanwhile, many will flock to this large army for their share of the glory/cash.  What incentive will their be to the underdogs? See post release Shadowbane for some other examples where idealogy and implementation met head on.

Quote from: LordDax
Shiznits-thanks alot of the list. I'll make sure it show up on our round table. Im actually quite intrigued by number 6. Anyone else care to comment on monsters being "active participants" in the game? In going along with our "war" system I think players taking player towns might be an interesting concept as well.


Wish attempted this.  The difficulty in implementation lies along a number of fronts.  If you can do it, great!  Seems like it would take some effort to do right.
 
a) The assaults need to feel organic and feel like a threat.  NPC's become very easy targets once their AI has been overcome.  The first invasion would be fun, latter invasions would seem more of a nuisance.

b) You now introduce a need for mob AI.  This will require time and resources.  

c) Timing of said raids to accomodate players in a number of time zones and be scaled to server populations during those times. (i.e. more work/resources).

Hope that helps.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
JMQ
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Reply #23 on: January 10, 2005, 03:00:35 PM

Quote from: LordDax
Fame and Infamy can be used in a number of ways which we are currently discussing but include help reducing salaries because of inspired soldiers who gain additonal benefits from being in a "Famed" unit, giving access to certain events(state balls, international confreneces, etc)


Why codify this?  People will naturally self-assemble. Witness clans in FPS games even though the genre is individualistic to the extreme by design.  Also, codification would constrain the fame/infamy duality to some artificially cartoonish definition.  You'll always get players that wanna be "bad guys" but the dynamic is so much more interesting when fame and infamy are diametrically opposed on the other side.

To make the social aspects of the game even more interesting, encourage intrigue and infighting by making it easy for players to communicate anonymously off-game.  Maybe provide email accounts on your server that cannot be traced to the player account.  This will exploit another human tendency, fractiousness, and hopefully combat the problem of the over-powerful group.  Other MMOGs suffer because it's so easy to communicate on the Internet.  Yours will depend on it.  This approach also jives well with the programmer's credo of maximum laziness.  Code as little as possible into your game.

However, I don't have a concrete example to counter Nebu's. The only other thought I can only offer that if a single army can dominate the whole world, perhaps the world is too small.

I want to play!
sidereal
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Reply #24 on: January 10, 2005, 03:32:30 PM

Domination is easy to avoid if territory/asset maintenance gets exponentially more expensive.  The model breaks horribly when victory makes it easier to acquire resources (and thus more victories).

THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
Arnold
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Reply #25 on: January 10, 2005, 04:12:38 PM

Quote from: LordDax
We were hoping that a thread like this could come up with a better plan than a team of 25 guys(and 2 girls) sitting around in a room doing it by ourselves.


Offer enough money and we will spit ideas faster than you can record them.  Otherwise, either sift through the mountain of marketing and development information contained on this site, for youselves, or STFU and go away.
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #26 on: January 10, 2005, 04:22:40 PM

Quote from: sidereal
Domination is easy to avoid if territory/asset maintenance gets exponentially more expensive.  The model breaks horribly when victory makes it easier to acquire resources (and thus more victories).


Yup.

Also, if you want realtime on-the-fly commands, add a voice chat client.  Either between officers.  Or have it as one of the skills, the greater the skill the greater the distance or some shit.
shiznitz
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Reply #27 on: January 11, 2005, 10:13:28 AM

Quote from: Nebu
2. If there is a role of general, more will wish to fill that role than are equipped or are needed.  



Planetside shows how this can breakdown. Any jerk can grind their way to CR5 (highest command level) and then start spamming the command channels. The problem is how does a game systematically limit progress fairly? How are bad commanders removed without losing that player?

I have never played WoW.
Righ
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Reply #28 on: January 11, 2005, 08:15:57 PM

I think you need to have a one-eyed alien dispense careers when you log on. You are a general. You are a pizza delivery boy.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #29 on: January 11, 2005, 10:00:09 PM

Quote from: Righ
You are a pizza delivery boy.


Having just read Snow Crash, I'll take it!
Trippy
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Reply #30 on: January 11, 2005, 10:39:17 PM

LordDax, is your idea PvP, PvE or a mixture of both?
sinij
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Reply #31 on: January 11, 2005, 11:06:22 PM

Quote from: LordDax
Can you castrate that one MrHat?


I can. First loosing sucks, with this system you will have majority of your player base as losers most of the time since overlord and his guild will get advantage over everyone.

Second once you get Uber guild to the top, probably composed from beta test guilds, they will put rules in place that will make it harder to defeat them. So one you are looser you will stay loser.

Safety in numbers – once you get one guild with overlord to rule most players will join them as opposed to fight and more then likely to be repeatedly crushed by them. Overlord will allow plenty to join to further secure top position leading to more disadvantages to any and all possible opponents.


Few things you fail to see and it is clear in your designs.

1)   It should be easy to recover from loss
2)   Loosing is bad enough – there is no need for additional punishment


So let me rewrite your idea into something workable.

Everyone starts as ether dragonkin or human.

Dragonkin are more powerful to start with than humans but become less powerful by fighting – so more you kill or fight less powerful you become with power only regenerating slowly with time.

Humans start as a weak race that accumulates power by fighting but looses it with time.

Dragonkin can fight each other, humans can’t.

Game has skills that you can improve by ether training or fighting. Some skills can be gained only through fighting some only through training.

Character power dependent on your skills and your items - items gained through crafting and skills gained through training and fighting.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Krakrok
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Reply #32 on: January 11, 2005, 11:12:14 PM

Award the winner with shiney/fame and at the same time penalize the power of the winner. Keep awarding the losers with power until one of the losers becomes the winner. Repeat.
LordDax
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Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 06:36:06 AM

I wanted to let you all know that we have been hanging on your suggestions at your round tables. Alot of stuff you guys have said usually gets the initial response of "Damn. Why didn't I think of that?" or "Yeah! Exactly!"

Recently we have been taking a look at the overlord system since, thanks to help from the f13 community, in its current state, does indeed perpetuate a solid state/caste of winners and losers. We've started to come up with a few ways to combat this. The one we are to discuss today is reworking the storyline so that each dragkon has a set lifespan/power limit. Think of it something like the chinese calendar with "Year of the XXX".

 In the beginning of the power cycle, the dragkon starts out weak but gains power  as his period reaches its halfway peak point, this in turn empowers his acolyotes. But due to the division of energy between fighting the celestial battle and ruling the "earthly" realm, their power begins to fade after xxx period of time. The flow of the mystic life blood of reality begins to seap into another dragkon empowering them and affecting their alcoyltes, leeching it from the previous dragkon and their followers.

 The previous dragkon would not be able to attempt to wrestle for power for a time due to their hibernation to regain some of their power.  The hibernating dragkon's acolyotes could attempt to hold onto their authority, but with their new opponents now having their abilities enchanced by the lifeblood of their empowered dragkon, it would be an extreme effort.  

What do you guys think? Is it feasible to continue down this line of thought?

When the future doesn't appear to be the way you like it, re-invent it!
Righ
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Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 06:56:52 AM

Hah, that's actually a sweet idea. Saves all the fixing and nerfing that MMOGs tend to do in the name of balance. Simply make the characters all unbalanced, with each one having its own moment of glory. "On Thursdays, I'm uber, but the rest of the week, I'm a gimp."

You'll get some peculiar subscribers to say the least.

PS: stop with the corporate dev team round table bs, I don't buy it

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
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