Cars for Noobs

[Nebu]

Idiots will drive like idiots regardless of the car they are in.  

Keep in mind that the amount of harm they can do to others varies with the vehicle mass and speed.  

NowhereMan hit my point on the head.  4WD gives a false sense of security, but can be a wonderful thing in the right hands.  

[Salamok]

Loving the 4WD hate. I guess I must've missed all the time I've spent in a ditch.

I think the point here is that most 4 wheel drives are heavier and a heavier car is going to brake worse in low traction situations than a lighter car.  Being able to drive a larger mass at faster speeds in a low traction situation without being aware of these facts leads to ending up in a ditch.  

Best handling car I ever drove in the snow was a Honda Civic, it is front wheel drive, has a nice weight distribution and isn't exactly heavy.  That all said a Subaru AWD isn't exactly in the heavy SUV class so I can see how that might be a nice snow car, probably has better clearance than the Civic too (although the Civic seemed somewhat capable of plowing through snow at bumper/hood height for short distances).

As far as the city folk not ever needing a 4wd, that is rubbish if you own a boat or something a 4wd has the gears to handle hauling/launching it w/o undo wear and tear on your trans.  Also, 4wd on pickups can come in handy in slippery situations since pretty much all 2wd pickups are rwd and have shit for traction when empty.

Back on topic:  Another thing to consider on the 1-2 year old honda/toyota/nissan vs. the 3-5 year old Acura/Lexus/Infiniti is that if you are buying a used car in Wisconsin chances are it is probably from Wisconsin and them snowy winters make for some hard miles.

[slog]

total side note:  Toyota is having some quality problems lately.  I used to just blindly recommend them, but I don't anymore.  They really took their eye off the ball.

[MisterNoisy]

total side note:  Toyota is having some quality problems lately.  I used to just blindly recommend them, but I don't anymore.  They really took their eye off the ball.

Oddly, there's only a couple of Toyota models that have quality issues, but they account for a lot of sales.  The Camry V6 and the Tundra - both of which got dropped from Consumer Report's 'recommended' list - are manufactured in the US.  Their J-VIN cars are still quite good.

[IainC]

I think the point here is that most 4 wheel drives are heavier and a heavier car is going to brake worse in low traction situations than a lighter car.  Being able to drive a larger mass at faster speeds in a low traction situation without being aware of these facts leads to ending up in a ditch.

I don't even think it's that so much, it's more that people have unrealistic expectations of what 4wd actually does. A lot of people seem to believe that magic 4wd pixies stop you from ever losing control of the car. I remember the very first time I was in the US, coming back from Cripple Creek down to Colorado Springs late at night on a snowy January evening. That road is pretty winding as it drops about half a mile in altitude and we came across a guy with his brand new 4wd truck on its roof, the wrong side of the guard wall. We stopped to see if he was ok (he was) and the very first words he said to us were 'I can't believe it tipped over, this is a 4wd! It's like none of the wheels had any grip!'

Judging by the number of Colorado residents who buy monster 4wds just to drive between their home in the city and the Walmart three blocks away I'd say he's not an outlier.

[Lantyssa]

Most people are clueless about 4WD.  Even with years spent on the ranch we only ever engaged it if we had to go through a nasty mud hole or the terrain was so rough we might have a few tires off the ground.  It's the same batch of people who think they need an SUV to survive city life.

Sky, you're an anomoly.  You know how to drive in terrible conditions and enjoy doing so.  Race car drivers know how to go really fast without exploding against a wall.  Most people shouldn't be in either of those situations.

[Numtini]

The Camry V6 and the Tundra - both of which got dropped from Consumer Report's 'recommended' list - are manufactured in the US

Is the V6 even sold outside of the US? I thought most other countries had a regular and turbo diesel 4?

[Selby]

I"m close to disabling it (and ABS, because it's not discreet enough to disable alone, apparently) because it's so dangerous in winter driving.

Funny, I am not a big fan of ABS either as I learned to drive and still drive cars without them so I pump the pedal rather than just mashing it, which screws up most ABS setups when you do it.  I remember the one time it snowed 6" and froze solid in 2002, yet they didn't cancel classes so I had to drive a '72 RWD vehicle to class in it.  I was one of the few not spinning out and flying around the roads simply because I could manage the gas and brake with each foot, and manage to steer properly.  Didn't need ABS to do it, and there were ALOT of vehicle wrecks and 4WD vehicles in ditches along the road.  Granted, I wouldn't want to do it every single day but it sure was fun to test my driving skills...

[slog]

I"m close to disabling it (and ABS, because it's not discreet enough to disable alone, apparently) because it's so dangerous in winter driving.

Funny, I am not a big fan of ABS either as I learned to drive and still drive cars without them so I pump the pedal rather than just mashing it, which screws up most ABS setups when you do it.  I remember the one time it snowed 6" and froze solid in 2002, yet they didn't cancel classes so I had to drive a '72 RWD vehicle to class in it.  I was one of the few not spinning out and flying around the roads simply because I could manage the gas and brake with each foot, and manage to steer properly.  Didn't need ABS to do it, and there were ALOT of vehicle wrecks and 4WD vehicles in ditches along the road.  Granted, I wouldn't want to do it every single day but it sure was fun to test my driving skills...

The only time that old conventional braking is better than ABS is when building up a wedge of stuff will help you brake faster.  It's not the equipment that is the issue; the reality is that most Americans are now highly distracted drivers who don't pay attention.

[stray]

There's too much 4WD talk to sift through, but most of the 4WD that people buy and think they're cool with is totally shit and will break the minute the actually take it to a creek or something. Some of the cars I see recommended with 4WD talk tells me people aren't actually... using the 4WD. [edit] Not here. I just mean in general.

[Signe]

I've muddled through extraordinary weather conditions in all sorts of vehicles.  During the winter, driving from the last ski lift in Taos to the village was pretty much a challenge on good days.  Driving to work in blinding snowstorms and roads that were sheets of ice was always good fun when I lived in the Monzano mountains.  4WD was nice when it was available to me. Having said that, I wouldn't drive an SUV or any sort of truck today.  I don't have a need or a desire for that.  Most people probably don't have the need, either - just the desire.  They just like to say it's because they have kids, dogs, planks of wood, huge bags of pot, whatever, to justify it.  We've had sports cars in the past because we enjoyed them.  I guess SUVs are easier to come up with the excuses if you get embarrassed.

Of course, quite a lot of the people I hear complaining about how bad other people drive seem to be delusional about their own driving, too.  I especially laugh when people tell me they might drive 30 miles over the limit, but they're very safe drivers.  Uh, okaaaay.  Once, when my sister picked us up at the airport, I complained that she was constantly answering her phone while she was driving.  Something we don't do.  She said, "Oh.  I have this nice hands free thingy."  She dug around in her hand bag, driving half with her knees while she found it and set it up.  It was funny after the initial terror subsided.  She doesn't do that anymore.  Thankfully.

[Johny Cee]

Ugh.  

1. Linky for AWD and 4WD, if you don't want to google it yourself:  http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

There isn't a whole hell of alot of difference between many AWD and 4WD systems on pavement.  Offroad 4WD obviously takes into account differences in suspension, clearance, etc. that both stray and the firefox alluded to.

2.  There is no such thing as universal winter conditions.  

Sky is a Western NYer, so he gets fun with lake effect snow.  I'm Northern NE NY (stones throw from Quebec, sandwiched between the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain), so we have less snow but tend to get nastier temperature differentials which means a mix of heavy snow, ice/black ice, drifts, and nasty freezing rain.  Ab sounds like he gets more of the ice/sleet style winter.

After living in the Berkshires in Mass for four years while in college, I'd hesitate to call that winter.  Never put on a winter coat once.

3.  The only time I've ever seen significant numbers of overturned SUVs was on the highways south or north of Montreal, which has more to do with the nasty gusts of wind along the open fields and natural meterological conditions (which makes the Northern Tier of NY excellent for wind farms).  Used to see more tractor trailer overturned on the side of the road, and that's scary as shit.

I'd suggest the reason people are noting more SUVs or trucks off the road is that cars couldn't make it out of the driveway.


For winter, it depends on local conditions:

- 4WD/AWD SUVs or Pickups are excellent if you have to bull your way through heavy snow fall, drifts of snow, or just the tailings from snow plows that accumulate.  Cars, even with AWD and snow tires, sometimes don't have the clearance to get through that.  As Ab said, if you have hills and sleet/ice on the ground, sometimes regular 2WD won't get you up the hill.

- The higher vantage of trucks/SUVs is wonderful for city driving if you get significant snow falls.  That's because the snow gets plowed into high banks on side streets, which means you can't see what's coming from either direction in car at intersections, and need to sneak out.

- SNOW TIRES.  These are mandatory now in Quebec (not sure if it's just QC, or if its Canada-wide).  Snow tires give you much better traction, so much better turning and stopping.


Personally, I drive an Escape with AWD/4WD and decent all-weather tires.  The one time I've ended up off the road was on a steep hill, with wet/slick snow on top of ice, and I had been an idiot and not replaced my tires recently.  Half a dozen people in large trucks still slowed down and asked if I needed a pull out of the bank, and then proceeded to carry on up the hill with no problem.  Quite a few cars barely made it up the hill.

In a 2WD Grand Prix or my old Cutlass, I ended up off the road a whole hell of alot more.  I also spent a huge amount of time digging out the car so I could try and move it.  4WD/AWD meant I could just hop in and go.


If you're sticking to major/well plowed & sanded roads, virtually any front wheel drive car with snow tires works fine.  You will still spend a bunch of time digging out your car so you can move it, if you have significant snow fall and no garage.  

If you have to negotiate less maintained roads, higher clearance and 4WD/AWD may work better for you.  Or if you don't want to spend 15-20 minutes after every snowfall digging around your car before you can get a running start to move it....

Rear wheel drive is the devil.  This year, I've already had to help a client in a rear wheel drive car get out of our parking lot with only a 3-4" snow fall because the RWD was fucking useless and all the other men in my office are over 50.

[Abagadro]

Good stuff Johnny and I agree with all of it.  We do get the big snow here as well including lake effect off the Great Salt Lake.  I learned to drive here in a 78 MGB and it is possible to get by (and hella fun to do parking lot slide donuts) but if you have the opportunity to have AWD in a snowy climate you will be happy on those sketchy days.

[Brogarn]

Yeehaw!

Reliable, good value for it's class, can go anywhere. I think they just bumped it from compact to mid-size, where it kicks even more butt for the dollar.

Yeah, but it looks like a Tonka Truck.

I disagree with that being a bad thing. I love the look of those things. I also had Tonka Trucks when I was a kid, so that might have something to do with it.

[Sky]

I'm sitting in the middle of two nice fronts of lake effect, the hammer is about to drop, sky just got covered again after a nice couple sunny hours. I'm home feeling like shit but I do love getting out and getting the driveway cleaned off, wish I could've snuck off to some seasonal roads with the FJ. Got about eight inches from the first dump, this next one looks to be over a foot and then another wave in the morning. Fuck yeah!

Anyway, JC is right, even in my area there are a shitload of microclimates because of the hills and valleys. I lived for over a year up on the back end of the Tughill Plateau, and I didn't have my snowblower or FJ. I would LOVE living up there now (except the blackflies in the summer, of course).

RWD is a mixed bag. I like the way the ass breaks on it, no need for handbraking around corners. But my Ranger, I just couldn't get enough weight in the back for it to grip well enough, I was always getting stuck and having to shovel sand under the damn tire. Not in ditches, though, just driveways 

Some advice: if you get a good snowfall, hit up an empty parking lot and practice for a while. Do some donuts, but learn how the car handles in slides. I used to throw myself into uncontrolled slides and practice recovering. Then work on fun stuff like reverse 180s, make your passengers mess themselves even though you're in total control, people just don't expect that kind of thing. My fiancee hates when I slide around corners, but it's actually very safe if you know what you're doing. When I worked at welly mart overnights, they'd have us move our cars so they could plow the lot, I'd stay out there for fifteen minutes running through practice, every time I could. I'd also do it in the morning in the back lot if I could, it's a lot of fun, and once you get into an actual problem, you can let your reflexes take over while you panic 

[Aez]

I'm not a car expert but I'm a pretty good driver.  I'm also Canadian...

Up here the selling point for a 4WD is not driving in the snow.  That's usually taken care by the best winter tires you can find (on all wheels even if you have a front wheel drive, driving with 2 winter tires on the front and normal tires on the back is for noobs).

The selling point for 4WD are: not getting stuck in the snow, not having to shovel a parking space, park in exotic place when the parking is full at the restaurant/movie, getting out of the ditch with out a towing if you ever take it.  The added road adherence in certain situation is only icing on the cake.

[Viin]

I'm not a car expert but I'm a pretty good driver.  I'm also Canadian...

Up here the selling point for a FWD is not driving in the snow.  That's usually taken care by the best winter tires you can find (on all wheels even if you have a front wheel drive, driving with 2 winter tires on the front and normal tires on the back is for noobs).

The selling point for FWD are: not getting stuck in the snow, not having to shovel a parking space, park in exotic place when the parking is full at the restaurant/movie, getting out of the ditch with out a towing if you ever take it.  The added road adherence in certain situation is only icing on the cake.

Did you mean AWD? I don't see how FWD helps you in any of those situations ...... but maybe I'm an AWD snob.

[IainC]

4WD =/= off road capability.

[Aez]

Did you mean AWD? I don't see how FWD helps you in any of those situations ...... but maybe I'm an AWD snob.

Yeah, edited. I tough the F was for four.

[Sky]

4WD =/= off road capability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpskGOg1ewQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HUtwOApn6U

Stock clips to be fair.

[Trippy]

Whoosh!

[Sky]

Really?

[Trippy]

Just cause your car has 4WD/AWD doesn't mean it has the clearance/suspension to go off-roading.

[IainC]

Yeah. An Audi TT Quattro has 4WD but you wouldn't offroad in it.

[angry.bob]

Also, search "4wd stuck in {snow/sand/mud/dirt/driveway} for several thousand clips of SUV's, trucks, and Subarus stuck in stuff that many cars would make it through. A lot of them are people stuck in their own driveways. Including an H3 of all things. Personal favorite was some sort of Jeep stuck on a beach and some decrepid RV with luggage and bikes strapped to it drives past it.

[Sky]

Just cause your car has 4WD/AWD doesn't mean it has the clearance/suspension to go off-roading.

I was just being specific as to the actual vehicle I have, it's decent off the road, even stock.

[Aez]

You can still get stuck with a 4WD, especially if you have bad tire.
It's still a huge improvement over standard FWD as far as not getting stuck.
Saying 4WD often get stuck where FWD does not is silly.

[Righ]

He'd better get a tracked amphibian vehicle with vertical lift capability.

[Sky]

Don't forget armor plating and countermeasures. In case he has to go to walmart.

[Aez]

He'd better get a tracked amphibian vehicle with vertical lift capability.

I'm from Louisiana and I can assure you hovercrafts are way better than tracked amphibians.

[Jimbo]

Just cause your car has 4WD/AWD doesn't mean it has the clearance/suspension to go off-roading.

I was just being specific as to the actual vehicle I have, it's decent off the road, even stock.

Yea, you probably have the 2nd best stock 4x4 on the market 

[Sky]

 

I've been looking into the VSC disable mod, and apparently there are a couple out there. But, the 09 model comes with a VSC disable switch on the dash!  So now I'm trying to talk my dealer into installing the 09 switch in my 08. I doubt they will do it, but I'm stuck between a dangerous nanny feature and my warranty.

[Selby]

So now I'm trying to talk my dealer into installing the 09 switch in my 08. I doubt they will do it, but I'm stuck between a dangerous nanny feature and my warranty.

It depends on what is involved.  If it it involves a new ECM, etc in addition to the switch hardware, I doubt they'll do it and let you keep the warranty just because of the sheer amount of labor and part swapping involved.  If it is a simple feature that involves plugging a switch in to an existing port, that's a different manner.

Although, if you get a friendly dealer they might just install anything for you anyways.

[Sky]

Yeah, I dunno. Some are saying that it's a new ECM, some are saying you can load the codes into the existing ECM.

The hacks are all over the place and there are three or four leading theories. It's mostly trying to trick the ECM by sending the signal that you're in 4H while you're in 2H, because VSC is disabled in 4WD modes. But since I've seen dozens of threads with variations on those hacks, and about 3/4 of them requires cutting wires...eh.

I might try the simplest one, which is just unplugging the ABS module, though I worry about fouling the plugs with road goop.

[TheWalrus]

I might try the simplest one, which is just unplugging the ABS module, though I worry about fouling the plugs with road goop.

Wha?