Ultimate PvP MMO - FPS/RTS/RPG hybrid

[Speedy Cerviche]

I've been brainstorming what I think the Ultimate PvP MMO would be and I think I've hit it: A hybrid FPS/RTS/RPG that supports multiple game styles seamlessly, and this gamestyle blend would also help solve some traditional PvP game problems, namely how to achieve balance while retaining RPG aspects, while not allowing more powerful players to ruin everyone else's good time.

Think Shattered Galaxy meets Planetside meets World in Conflict, with a little DIKU sprinkled in.

For purposes of example. picture this as a Warhammer 40k setting.

Character design basically boils down to how much FPS or RTS you want to do. If you like tactical combat, you control a squad of characters, if you like strategic combat you control a larger number, a platoon/company/battalion, if you want a twitch based game when you run around and pew pew, you control a single powerful character. So let's say in the Imperial forces, you can choose between an Imperial Guard Battallion which you control on a zoomed out map, spreading relatively weak companies and platoons around. If you want to micromanage a squad you can make your character have a more powerful commando squad, maybe an armored squad, or a squad of space marine recruits, you have more powerful soldiers and you micromanage them around combat, move each soldier individually, select cover, targets, weapon, etc. If you want the FPS game you have a single character, played in 3rd person or FPS mode, you are the elite space marine officer, the juggernaut, the heavy tank.

The game will balance because every person has a role they can be effective in.

-The strategic commander types manage the frontline fodder. He manages their logistics, their reinforcing and the general layout of his battle line. His units are the weakest individually and basically fodder for the other guys, but he has some many of them he doesn't care, he's always got more, and reinforcements coming in, and he's not some kind of sucker, his guys maybe weak but they still can take down heroes and elite units with enough of them.

-The tactical squad guy's units are stronger than the basic fodder and can take down a similar sized unit 1 on 1, but can be overwhelmed by numbers, or he encounters soldiers with weapons that work against him (say he has an armored unit and encounters lots of soldiers equipped with AT weapons). He can also customize how many units he wants vs. how strong each individual one is. So maybe he wants a platoon of pretty strong guys, or maybe he wants a fireteam of really strong guys.

-The hero player can be a killing machine vs lesser troops, but is no god and can also be taken down if properly surrounded, and comes under heavy, concentrated fire.

Leveling is pretty straight forward, you increase your pool of ability points. With these points you can customize your unit. One "skill" or "attribute" would be "troop command", if you want a numerous unit just max it out. if you want a strong single unit then don't put anything in there, just work on your character's physical stats and skills. You can do anything in between to your taste.

The great thing is, even a newbie can contribute, and doesn't feel like he's getting curb stomped. Sure maybe a fresh newbie if he went max unit number route could only field a squad or platoon of basic conscripts, compared to that veteran guy commanding a battalion, but the newbie is still able to march his soldiers to his factions' frontline and support the war. His conscripts still have real weapons, and can still kill enemy fodder. Likewise if the newbie wants a single character and puts all his points into individual stats and powers, he won't be some kind of Space marine hero able to massively influence a battle with good timing, but even a raw space marine recruit can still go out there to the front and whup on conscript soldiers weaker than him.

This is basically the core PvP balance of the MMO I envision. A lot of the game can be changed, Devs can choose whether they want fixed factions (such as WH40k), or open ended played created. Devs could decide if they want weapon upgrades to be acquired by exp (rocket+1), through crafting (EVE style). You can add on PvE elements also such as questing for items, resources, etc. to aid in the war effort. This type of game is probably a decade away, but I'm certain we'll see it, and it will be amazing.

[Kail]

The problem I have with FPS/RPG hybrids is that good FPSes rely on differences in player (i.e. soldier) skill, while good RTSes require their soldiers to be relatively equal (or predictable, at least).  It's supremely frustrating to be playing an RTS where one enemy space marine can cut through ten of yours, just because he's a better player than your guys are.  Suddenly you're getting your ass handed to you, there's nothing you can really do about it, and there's real players sitting down there bitching about what a godawful commander you are (because God knows it can't be their fault).  Or, taken to the other extreme, if the players are intentionally normalized, you get a plodding, boring FPS where you just move the cursor over an enemy and hold down the fire button until someone runs out of HP.

[schild]

The game will balance because every person has a role they can be effective in.

When you want people to take you seriously, try not to say things like that.

[Speedy Cerviche]

The problem I have with FPS/RPG hybrids is that good FPSes rely on differences in player (i.e. soldier) skill, while good RTSes require their soldiers to be relatively equal (or predictable, at least).  It's supremely frustrating to be playing an RTS where one enemy space marine can cut through ten of yours, just because he's a better player than your guys are.  Suddenly you're getting your ass handed to you, there's nothing you can really do about it, and there's real players sitting down there bitching about what a godawful commander you are (because God knows it can't be their fault).  Or, taken to the other extreme, if the players are intentionally normalized, you get a plodding, boring FPS where you just move the cursor over an enemy and hold down the fire button until someone runs out of HP.

There are ways you can balance that. A lot of it will come down to Devs decided how many conscripts using a basic assault rifle can a marine hero of X power take on at once, or how much sustained fire he can take, and for how long, from X number of conscript soldiers. Plus a smart commander can counter it, have some tactical reserve platoons behind the front to move up and swarm incase of concentrated incursion from more powerful units. Also you could equip some your soldiers with specialized weaponry, say railguns that are more effective vs. powerful, fast moving units but less efficient vs. common enemies. This should enable the devs to make FPS mode really cool, lots of tricks, jetpacks, but good tactics will be required to be a difference maker (do commando raids with others on weakspots). If you're a bad FPS player and can't think that well, but still wanna pew pew in FPS mode, you can still make a marine character and just sit on your own team's frontline and blast away, adding a powerful unit to it even if it's not a major factor.

[Hoax]

I played a fps/rts hybrid back in 2000 called 10six, it was my first mmo.  The problem they had was that the game went on while you were offline so even for a mmo it demanded huge amounts of time.  Now adays people solve that with timers but the game didn't have pve content so that wasn't even an option.

Having people be really good at avatar combat (fps) as it was known wasn't an issue.  A player couldn't go up against certain rover configs (the rts controlled units) no matter how good he was.  Also they limited the fps side of things by making fighting gear take up lots of equip space which meant you couldn't carry enough of the material your rovers (rts tank units) used to fire their weapons.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I played a fps/rts hybrid back in 2000 called 10six, it was my first mmo.  The problem they had was that the game went on while you were offline so even for a mmo it demanded huge amounts of time.  Now adays people solve that with timers but the game didn't have pve content so that wasn't even an option.

Having people be really good at avatar combat (fps) as it was known wasn't an issue.  A player couldn't go up against certain rover configs (the rts controlled units) no matter how good he was.  Also they limited the fps side of things by making fighting gear take up lots of equip space which meant you couldn't carry enough of the material your rovers (rts tank units) used to fire their weapons.

Game is always going to be going on..I guess the time input factor depends on how important you want to make player consequences. In games like Planetside and Shattered Galaxy what happened in the war wasn't too significant, in game like Warhammer Online it was a bit more significant, in a game like Shadowbane or Eve it's a lot more significant.

Personally I think a good balance would be one where there is always some low level combat going on, so players can always just login and head to immediately to an active front, and even do something of significance to shift it (capture a minor strongpoint, resource point) if they are playing well and outmatch enemy. Those more involved would be more organized and planning major campaigns with fellow players, or responding in force to similar enemy strategic operations.

[DarkSign]

Our failed MMO attempt, Conflict:Omega was just such a mix. Shame more people haven't agreed with such an idea earlier :)

[Goumindong]

Yea, that ain't going to work. If you have content that can be completed by multiple types of characters its going to get dominated by certain classes.



Its much better to just got the planetside route and add better RTS elements. That isn't all that difficult if you forgo an economy. The problem mainly comes with funding to get the project done.

In any FPS/RTS hybrid you have three main problems.

1. FPS players who don't follow orders
2. How to marriage the RTS aspect to the FPS aspect.
3. How to manage who manages whom?

The solution is, in my opinion, to follow a modified Natural Selection method. In that game, the commander has no direct control of people, but is in control of handing out items.

The way we modify this for an MMO is to simply give the RTS commanders incentive based control mechanics. Players get bonuses when they are in the RTS commanders order area., and the RTS commander can dole out rechargable resources within that area as well. Tactical control doesn't need to exist, the players will micro-manage themselves. Only strategic level and logistical level needs to exist. Since logistics sucks, you automate that process. You arrange FPS players into squads based on roles they choose and then each RTS player gets a number of squads to control with his incentive based system. RTS players are automatically given a "front" to fight on where their squads start(until they decide to move out of logistics range or push into new areas). When people die, they get queued into new squads that will be doled out to RTS commanders as soon as they're ready. Squads and Commanders from the same "outfit" would of course be matched together by default so you were always fighting with an outfit if you chose to go that route(this lets players self organize fairly easily)

Any player can gain XP in any area(but might not be able to use it), and that includes skilling up things like different types of weapons, armor, vehicles, gunnery skills, weapon skills, speed, agility, local command bonuses, strategic command bonuses, logistics availability etc.

In short, your game looks like planetside on the front side, Eve on the XP/skill side(simply because i love that XP mechanic), and natural selection on the RTS side.

Now if you could squeeze an economy(Free combat/economy ala-Eve) into this it would be even more impressive, BUT i suspect that such a system would not really be possible and only a very loose collection of a game could really have such a system effectively. The main problem with this is that you have to establish money making mechanics, interdiction mechanics, resource capture mechanics and production which, while interesting, probably gets in the way of the core mechanic.

[DLRiley]

Guimindong have you played Savage 2?

[Goumindong]

Savage 2 is just Natural Selection that you pay for.

I envision a game like that that forgoes the "build shit" system of command for an active system of command, doesn't end, and is BIG