Mythic makes promises that would impress a politician

[Nebu]

New announcement on Herald by Mark Jacobs states that Mythic still hopes to maintain their market share.

The part that caught my eye was this:

Last and certainly not least is that since the original launch of the game, we have looked at creating a new server type that is geared to players who have less time than others to commit to a MMORPG. This exciting new server will cater to both the casual player as well as address some of the concerns of players about bots and the time commitment necessary to complete ToA. We will be announcing full details about this server type in the coming weeks but I believe that this server will go a long way in making DAoC the leader of the pack in regards to the casual player. As part of this, we will also be looking at the impact of the death penalty and other aspects of the game on the casual player. Additionally, we will be looking at other server types that could come out of this rule set or even different rule sets. Players have continued to ask us to create different server types and we are going to put it to the community to get your feedback.

I'm still playing this game as I find it the best implementation of PvP in an MMOG to date.  Yes, it's flawed... but when it works, it's great fun.  Of course I'm still skeptical of both their implementation and timeline of these proposed changes.  I have to confess that I'm secretly hoping they pull it off.  If they would just get rid of CC and buffs, I might even become a fanboi again.

[Shockeye]

If they would just get rid of CC and buffs, I might even become a fanboi again.

They will never do that since it will mean losing 20-40% (made up, of course) of their subscriptions from buff-bots.

[Nebu]

They will never do that since it will mean losing 20-40% (made up, of course) of their subscriptions from buff-bots.

Of course I know this... but a guy can dare to dream.

[geldonyetich]

You know it's a bad sign when a MMORPG is being scaled back by it's creators for excessive time investment.

[Shockeye]

Say what you will about the game, and I do have many negative things to say about it, Mark Jacobs and the Mythic team do seem to communicate about 500 times better than other MMOG companies out there.

And I am looking forward to more information about this:

Last and certainly not least is that since the original launch of the game, we have looked at creating a new server type that is geared to players who have less time than others to commit to a MMORPG. This exciting new server will cater to both the casual player as well as address some of the concerns of players about bots and the time commitment necessary to complete ToA. We will be announcing full details about this server type in the coming weeks but I believe that this server will go a long way in making DAoC the leader of the pack in regards to the casual player. As part of this, we will also be looking at the impact of the death penalty and other aspects of the game on the casual player. Additionally, we will be looking at other server types that could come out of this rule set or even different rule sets. Players have continued to ask us to create different server types and we are going to put it to the community to get your feedback. This brings me to my last point, Mythic to player interaction.

[Malderi]

Say what you will about the game, and I do have many negative things to say about it, Mark Jacobs and the Mythic team do seem to communicate about 500 times better than other MMOG companies out there.

I take it you've never visited the City of Heroes boards, then.

Statesman (Jack Emmert, lead designer/creative talent - he's the counterpart to Mark Jacobs, who wrote that letter) posts regularly. Sometimes 15-20 times a week commenting on various things and suggestions, as well as corrections and starting official threads. I've seen nothing like it before.

</derail> I played DAOC for two years and will never touch it again. Not unless that casual server has 10x the xp gain and no ToA allowed. Then... well, maybe I'll touch it, but I still won't play it.

[Shockeye]

Say what you will about the game, and I do have many negative things to say about it, Mark Jacobs and the Mythic team do seem to communicate about 500 times better than other MMOG companies out there.

I meant to type "better than most other". Oops.

I take it you've never visited the City of Heroes boards, then.

Statesman (Jack Emmert, lead designer/creative talent - he's the counterpart to Mark Jacobs, who wrote that letter) posts regularly. Sometimes 15-20 times a week commenting on various things and suggestions, as well as corrections and starting official threads. I've seen nothing like it before.

I agree that Statesman and Cryptic's communication is top-notch as well. Too bad other companies don't follow the same pattern. Blizzard, I am looking at you.

[Rodent]

If we're discussing Cryptic and CoH I would like to add that all other companies should be looking at how much "free" content they're handing out without labeling it as expansions.

Damn shame they don't ship the comic overseas though.

[Big Gulp]

If we're discussing Cryptic and CoH I would like to add that all other companies should be looking at how much "free" content they're handing out without labeling it as expansions.

Exactly.  They may have started the $15/month subscription rate, but they're also the only ones out there who justify the price increase by providing a shitload more.

Unabashed Cryptic fanboy, here.  Every time I've had any problems in a mission (blinkie hidden in the walls, whatever) I've had a CS rep there in 5 minutes to help me out.  And they actually help!  It blew me away the first time I ever had to use it being now inured to the "I'm sorry, citizen, but I can't help you with that" line of bullshit from other games.  Continual updates with new zones, new classes, level increases, and new powers?  Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.  Huge events (trick or treating, for Christ's sake!) and other goodies completely justify me paying for this game til hell freezes over.

I just hope to God they can get PvP right.  If they do then COH will put every other MMOG out there to shame.  It'll be pure digital crack.

[Jimbo]

Agree with Big Gulp.

I have been able to play a couple of days, and love the new changes and added content.  They have the casual to catass content covered.  Sure they can improve, but they communicate, change and make things work for the game in a fun way.

[Evil Elvis]

If we're discussing Cryptic and CoH I would like to add that all other companies should be looking at how much "free" content they're handing out without labeling it as expansions.

Exactly.  They may have started the $15/month subscription rate, but they're also the only ones out there who justify the price increase by providing a shitload more.

Asheron's Call has had montlhy content patches for the last 5 years, as has AC2 (recently, and wisely, changed to bi-monthly) since it was belched out.

[chinslim]

Last and certainly not least is that since the original launch of the game, we have looked at creating a new server type that is geared to players who have less time than others to commit to a MMORPG. This exciting new server will cater to both the casual player as well as address some of the concerns of players about bots and the time commitment necessary to complete ToA.

The biggest difference between the 'casual player' and the uber 'gank group player' is the 'gank grouper'  plays in a regular group of 8.

With the way DAOC classes are set up and having 8 spots in a group, forming an 'optimal' group has been and is still probably the biggest hurdle in the game, which is why gank groups are pretty rare and so tough to compete with.

I don't see how Mythic can possibly design a casual player ruleset unless they went back to the drawing board and redesigned every class(and even combine some) to support more group functionality.  Instanced RvR, much like Guild Wars, may possibly pit even-strength groups versus each other, but it kills the whole 'realm vs realm' concept.  Meanwhile, it's easier for me to form a group of 5 in WoW than it was trying to coordinate groups in DAOC.

[Yegolev]

Easy Age of Camelot?  didn't SOE try this way back with EasyQuest?

[Nebu]

Easy Age of Camelot?  didn't SOE try this way back with EasyQuest?

Oh... I see. So what you're saying is that making the treadmill longer before you can get to "teh fun" makes the game more of a challenge?

Not for me thanks. I play games to HAVE FUN from the start.  I already have a job.

[chinslim]

Oh... I see. So what you're saying is that making the treadmill longer before you can get to "teh fun" makes the game more of a challenge?

Even on a 'casual' server, you know there will be 4-10 hour wait lists for fin/redcap/whatever Albion does groups

[Yegolev]

Easy Age of Camelot?  didn't SOE try this way back with EasyQuest?

Oh... I see. So what you're saying is that making the treadmill longer before you can get to "teh fun" makes the game more of a challenge?

i have to admit that i don't really know what he means, but it sounds like a "kinder, gentler" DAoC.  my assumption is that his assumption is that casual players have a hard time in the normal version, which explains their slower advancement, or their terror-filled screaming as they flee to other games?  i'm not sure why i'm spending so much time thinking about this.

[AlteredOne]

Synopsis:  "We want to make DAOC more like WoW, but with better RvR."  Mark Jacobs has a history of making exaggerated politician-like promises, then only partially following up.  So I'll have to echo Ronald Reagan to Walter Mondale: "Where's the beef?"

Meanwhile, in the Imperator Dev Diary, Mark Jacobs stated that DAOC RvR was a post-release nightmare, hence they are not including RvR in Imperator.

Seems a big schizophrenic to me...  We don't want to do RvR in our next game, but we're going to push it as the selling point of DAOC even though we see it as a support nightmare.  If Mythic would have just focused on RvR as the "end-game" from day one, and developed their expansions around RvR content instead of adding an EQ-style PvE grind, it could have been an amazing thing.  Now they're just reacting to other games.

[Nebu]

i have to admit that i don't really know what he means, but it sounds like a "kinder, gentler" DAoC.  my assumption is that his assumption is that casual players have a hard time in the normal version, which explains their slower advancement, or their terror-filled screaming as they flee to other games?  i'm not sure why i'm spending so much time thinking about this.

What I'm saying is that whacking 1,000,000 foozles to gain one level isn't hard.  It's about sitting on your ass for a long time.  Making each level take only 100 foozles to kill means that I don't have to sit on my ass doing the same god awful repetitive task just to get to the endgame (i.e. "teh fun").  Mythic isn't making the game "easier", it's making the game less about grinding a million foozles before you get to experience "teh fun".  Something that I think they have learned from WoW and CoH... games that introduce fun right out of the box.  In my opinion, the treadmill is still too long... but that's another discussion.

Keep one thing in mind: DAoC is a game.  There are no "accomplishments" other than having fun.  Life is for accomplishing things.  I pointed out your comment because I found it interesting that you equated a shorter leveling treadmill with an easier game.  If you think the update is going to make the game easier in a different way, perhaps you could articulate it.

[AcidCat]

I play games to HAVE FUN from the start.  I already have a job.

Keep one thing in mind: DAoC is a game. There are no "accomplishments" other than having fun. Life is for accomplishing things

You'd think this would be common sense eh? Well put, I am definitely of the same philosophy.


Anyway, Terra Nova has some discussion up on this subject.
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/01/mmogs_and_mulli.html#more

[Nebu]

Anyway, Terra Nova has some discussion up on this subject.
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/01/mmogs_and_mulli.html#more

Nice read... I liked this bit:

If you can make a casual server that is just as much fun as the original game, then why not drop the original game altogether? If you can't, because the original is so dependent upon punitively time-consuming mechanics, why imagine that you can make a server which is the antithesis of the game as it has come to be? I can well see why Mythic (and maybe other designers) might hope that a separate server rule-set would allow them to do over design decisions whose underlying rationale appears in retrospect to be dubious, but some choices can't be undone.

Edit: Also scroll below the article and read some of the responses.  Dave Rickey makes some very valid points, particularly from a business perspective.

[JMQ]

If lite beer didn't suck, why would there be any other kind of beer?

I think this analogy breaks down in the case of MMOGs.  What do you get out of playing on the high-grind server?  Whatever internal sense of accomplishment you get out of being an uber powergrinder, and the respect and admiration of your ubergrinding peers on the same server.

I asked some friends if they'd rather be rich or famous* if they couldn't  be both.  I was surprised by how much some value the opinion of their peers.


*I explained that I meant Linus Torvalds famous, not Buttafuoco famous.

[chinslim]

The introduction of realm abilities(special abilities awarded based on points accumulated in PVP) was really the beginning of the power/casual gamer separation.  It blew a really good concept the game started out with - a capped out power ceiling - to smithereens.  That it pretty much was implemented untested was also another issue.  I remember reputably 'tough' groups becoming much, much harder all of a sudden thanks to these "I win" buttons.  It also masked true realm/class imbalance issues and just become another layer of muck covering the game.  I quit DAOC for a year to play other MMO's, and when I resubbed a year later, high RR players were virtual gods lording over everyone else.

To me, DAOC has always been a game of attrition.  Many players and friends I made never made it to 50 when DAOC first came out.  By SI, getting to 50 and participating in RVR was relatively easy and this was when DAOC was its best.  Nowadays, you don't find many players who 'make it' to RR5 and ML10.

[AlteredOne]

Indeed that Terra Nova thread is good, and I've participated although I'll let you guess who I am.

The introduction of realm abilities(special abilities awarded based on points accumulated in PVP) was really the beginning of the power/casual gamer separation.  It blew a really good concept the game started out with - a capped out power ceiling - to smithereens.  That it pretty much was implemented untested was also another issue.

I agree about realm abilities opening a casual/powergamer gap, but I liked certain things about the system:
1. For a while in 2002-2003, the end-game was indisputably RvR.  A smart gamer (or one with friends to powerlevel him/her) could reach 50 fast, then focus exclusively on advancing their character in RvR.   I loved this.  I literally never touched the PvE game for several months, and did not miss it.  Reached RR7 and enjoyed my role as a Hibernian leader of sorts.  
2.  The sliding scale was intelligent.  A smart RvR player could reach realm rank 5 or 6 in a few weeks, especially once they established a good reputation.  With RR5 in hand, it was possible to compete even with the ultra-hardcore groups.

Downside of the realm ranks:
- As you say, they were largely untested.  Many of the abilities were outright broken or useless.  It was ridiculously hard to obtain respec stones, if you made a mistake.
- Elitism got excessive.  Players would wait hours to form the perfect group, before they would even leave home base.  And hackers developed "radar" utilities to maximize their realm rank farming potential.

With ToA, the end-game was no longer clear.  Most hyper-competitive RvR players spent months trying to get the master levels/artifacts, or they quit.  My wife and I quit.

[eldaec]

I've said this before ad nauseam.

But RRs and TOA are overrated.

What you need in RvR is a solid guild and organisation.

Once you hit 50, causal success relationships in DAoC success run...

Good guild + organisation + time  ->  pwnage  ->  RR and ToA

...not, as most people think...

Time  ->  RR and ToA  ->  Good guild  ->  pwnage

You *do* need the time, but what you really catass in DAoC is to get better at organisation. RR and ToA are trivial once you have that. And organisation >> RR and ToA.

[Nebu]

You *do* need the time, but what you really catass in DAoC is to get better at organisation. RR and ToA are trivial once you have that. And organisation >> RR and ToA.

Now, I will agree that when rr is close organization is #1 (assuming the players at least have an SC'ed suit with capped resists).  For the statement as a whole, I have to say that I disagree.  

A well constructed group (i.e. a balance of classes) of average skill rr10 players equipped with ML's and ToA'ed out the wazoo will demolish even the best organized, best skilled group of rr1-3 players.  This is why people are constantly dogging on PvP in the mmog genre.  Yes, organization helps.  Yes, running a regular guild group helps.  You still need RR's.  RR's > Organization > ToA  would be what I've experienced in my time around the game.   There is no removing time from the equation.  The person that has been in the game the longest has a large advantage over the player with less time.  Particularly as this time applies to realm rank.  A pickup group of rr10's that have never played together would destroy a group of rr2 players that had practiced for weeks together.  I wish this weren't the case, but it's what happens.   The current system of passive + active RA and the bonuses achieved at rr5 outweigh most other factors in game.

[Abalieno]

A well constructed group (i.e. a balance of classes) of average skill rr10 players equipped with ML's and ToA'ed out the wazoo will demolish even the best organized, best skilled group of rr1-3 players.  This is why people are constantly dogging on PvP in the mmog genre.  Yes, organization helps.  Yes, running a regular guild group helps.  You still need RR's.  RR's > Organization > ToA  would be what I've experienced in my time around the game.   There is no removing time from the equation.  The person that has been in the game the longest has a large advantage over the player with less time.  Particularly as this time applies to realm rank.  A pickup group of rr10's that have never played together would destroy a group of rr2 players that had practiced for weeks together.  I wish this weren't the case, but it's what happens.   The current system of passive + active RA and the bonuses achieved at rr5 outweigh most other factors in game.

This is about something we all knows quite well and that is really simple:
Mythic kept developing the RvR system so that it is achievement-based. This achievement allows peoples to feel motivated into taking part in the RvR. With the time this treadmill became too important. From a side it must be relevant or there's no purpose to stick with the game (no reward), from the other side the reward makes the PvP less and less appealing because it becomes just a matter of who catasses more.

The point is extremely simple:
Good PvP -> Flat power curve

Mythic's implementation is flawed in this core concept. The gameplay is *based on* a power curve. Recently they pushed this forward by adding Realm Ranks up to 12.

For the first time on Terra Nova there's something interesting:

Which makes the idea of a separate casual server both an understandable solution to path-dependent development and an ultimately futile one, in my view. It's rather like the promises that some food manufacturers make about "light" or "fat-free" versions of their products. If those versions actually do taste exactly the same (or better) than the heavy or fattening versions, then it becomes something of a puzzle about why the company would want to continue to sell the fattening version as its "mainstream" product. Presumably there are people addicted to the original who want to buy it, but most consumers would prefer the light version if it is equal in taste. Of course, if it is not--if it tastes "light" and is unattractive because of it, then the only people who want it are the strongly weight-conscious.

If you can make a casual server that is just as much fun as the original game, then why not drop the original game altogether? If you can't, because the original is so dependent upon punitively time-consuming mechanics, why imagine that you can make a server which is the antithesis of the game as it has come to be? I can well see why Mythic (and maybe other designers) might hope that a separate server rule-set would allow them to do over design decisions whose underlying rationale appears in retrospect to be dubious, but some choices can't be undone.

The key is how this applies to PvP. The key is also that PvP without a flat power curve is a born-dead idea.

I have my own ideas and solutions on this problem. Mythic should look and solve this instead of circumnavigate the issue without solving it (like they always do).

Ubiq also wrote something intelligent:

While you should always be looking at ways to make your game more fun, I would argue that now is the bad time to make changes to your game that makes it 'more like WoW', and this includes going too far in making it more casual. WoW has that spot in the marketplace pretty locked up, and you need to differentiate yourself, and expand your own pond.

EDIT: I finished to read all the comments on Terra Nova and I can say for the first time they are really, really interesting. For the first time they are actually discussing the problem instead of tinkering with useless reasonings.

[Jayce]

There is no removing time from the equation.  The person that has been in the game the longest has a large advantage over the player with less time.  

And really, it makes economic sense, if it doesn't entirely break the back of the playerbase.

Do you want to reward a guild of people who are great gamers, who come along and pwn everyone until they one party or the other gets bored and quits, because they have superior skillz?  Or do you want to reward the people who have played (and paid) a year+ with the ultimate goal of being good at RvR, even if their reflexes are somewhere between "single-celled organism" and "three-toed sloth"?