A quick lesson in office politics

[Dark Vengeance]

When you are going to ask someone for help, knowing full well they they are extremely overworked, underpaid, and in the middle of a very large, very important project with a tight deadline, there is a sequence of events you do not want to carry out.

1) Ask "are you busy?" when you damn well know the answer is an obvious "yes".

2) Act like you're clever by responding to that "yes" with "hahhah, well here's some more work for you then". That joke has never been funny. Ever.

3) Ask a really stupid question, or request something that you are more than capable of doing, and should fucking well know how to do yourself.

4) Act as if the aforementioned unimportant mundane task is somehow urgent, when it clearly isn't.

5) Insist that the overworked colleague drop everything ASAP to take care of your problem and/or train your stupid fucking ass on how to do your own goddamn job.

6) Threaten to say something to their boss because you don't agree with their response, or don't like the estimated turnaround time they've provided.

7) Try to play big-shot because your business card says "Major Accounts" on it, even though you hit a whopping 63% of quota last year, and are probably about 10 weeks away from the unemployment line.

8) Get uppity when the aforementioned overworked colleague points out that he out-ranks your boss, and that his boss is another 4 steps up the corporate ladder.

9) Say somethng completely unprofessional while walking away, yet still within earshot of this colleague...even if it was intended to be under your breath.

10) Complain loudly enough to other co-workers about it that the guy can still hear you.

11) After the guy finally gets sick of hearing you badmouth him, says "fine" and spends the next 15 minutes teaching your stupid ass (with painstaking detail) how to resolve the problem on your own as every curious party in the office looks on (and realizes you should already know this stuff, because it's something that even rookies have to do every day, and you have been expected to do for the past 5 years with the company), say "that's why they pay you the big bucks", when you know damn well that this colleague makes a pittance relative to your income.

See, you don't want to do that....especially not when I'm the overworked colleague. Someone in my office just went 11-for-11 on this list with me....so as a result I said (in front of everyone):

Wrong answer. The correct answer in this scenario is "I'm sorry. I didn't know how to do this, and behaved inappropriately in asking for your help. You are smarter than me, and it isn't particularly right that you make less money to do more work than I do. Here, let me take you out to lunch to properly show you how much I appreciate your efforts, and to apologize for my insensitivity". That's how you handle a situation like this. You should probably make a note of it for reference the next time you need my help to perform your basic job functions.

Once the laughter died down, the rep in question was called into his boss's office to be reprimanded for not playing nice with others, and I have  since received an apology from this particular jackass, as well as 3 offers to go out to lunch tomorrow from other colleagues.

I rule.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[Soukyan]

Happens to me almost daily. I'm using that paragraph in the future, if you don't mind.

[HaemishM]

Pika?

[Train Wreck]

I just quietly move their request to the very bottom of my list of tasks every time they violate one of those rules.  Some people stay down there for months.

[Paelos]

Luckily I work in accounting. The aura of number-nerd keeps people from giving us trouble.

[geldonyetich]

My posting in a thread about Dark Vengeance's career successes greatly accentuates my own career failures...

However, I will say I've never been the guy that harasses the overworked, underpaid guy to have them perform my job for me.  I've been on the receiving end of that and can sympathise.   Heck, in a way, that was my whole last job (the main difference being I was paid to be the one that gets harassed).

[Dark Vengeance]

For those that missed it, the moral of the story was that if you fuck with me, you will be publically humiliated for my amusement.

I, on the other hand, get a free lunch and a great story to share with others.

Hence, the reason I rule.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[geldonyetich]

So I've noticed, we've certainly quite the history to back that up on these hallowed boards.   Rule thou dost indeed.    I've found the best thing to do is stop caring - saves me a lot of energy that way.

But that's more on a personal note in a different context, not to deflate your victory over the far more important field of real life office politics.

[Rodent]

I, on the other hand, get a free lunch and a great story to share with others.

Well, are you going to share that great story or what?

Grats on the lunch though, and ofcourse for telling your annoying coworker to shove it.

[Calantus]

This is something you have to start the second you enter the job. My Mum works in the same field I entered and while good, frankly isn't as good as me, yet still gets others asking her question all the time and expecting her to answer. Having grown up hearing her bitch about this, the very first thing I did when entering this job was to make sure everyone knew I didn't take any shit at all. Then when it became known I was good at what I do, I made sure everyone knew that the right way to get my help was supplication.

Seriously, people are creatures of habit, if your manager comes in and says "I need this done right away" and you say "I'm sorry but I'm busy" then proceed to tell them your job description and how it doesn't include doing random shit for them, it leaves an impression. They will not ask you for help carelessly again. It is however a very difficult proposition to remove a "bitch" tag. Then you follow it up by occasionally asking if they have anything they need help with. That way you eventually look like a nice guy but everyone knows not to bug you. "Nice yet assertive". This is important, without the nice part the label will be "asshole". If you could help, you would be helping, if it's urgent they can ask but they better ask nice and be ready to be refused anyway.

My greatest glory was when the head of our department at the state level was in the office and my manager replied to their question "Well, X might help if you ask him". Was so good to see her try to comprehend the fact that someone might refuse to help them. I did help them though, I was busy, not stupid.

The reason you get treated the way you do is because you allow it. You should be more proactive rather than reactive if you want to craft the way the office treats you.

[Paelos]

There's a large chasm between being a doormat and being a raging tool. There's also nothing wrong with telling people that have no real direct control over you to fuck off if they decide to start acting unprofessional. However, if someone asks you for help and you are busy it pays not to be a cock about it.

I disagree with not doing things your manager tells you to do ASAP unless its completely outlandish. Picking up personal items from places, getting beverages/lunches, or scheduling events is usually the job of an assistant, and if that's not you, then tell them so. However, if it's anything else and its within your abilities at the office, going that extra mile for a boss is huge. It's the difference between the 30 year old staff accountant and the 27 year old controller. It's initiative and it's good sense.

[Calantus]

Well, that's not my experience. If it's something she needs to give a subordinate and she chooses me thats fine. If it's part of her job and she wants to palm it off onto me then she can go shove it unless I'm offering/not busy (rarely ever not busy). If it is a job for a higher employee but she wants to give it to me she better promote me 'cause I'm not doing a "team leader's" work when I'm below one. This policy has me at a position directly below hers, so my thinking is it works. I also have an offer to go to Canberra, the land of quick promotion, which I may take but for now I wont because I hate Canberra with a burning passion.

I also have the option to go back where I came from as I left in good standing, and worked well within the team. So that leaves me where I can risk the job because I'd rather go back to programming than be the office bitch.

[stray]

So I've noticed, we've certainly quite the history to back that up on these hallowed boards.   Rule thou dost indeed.    I've found the best thing to do is stop caring - saves me a lot of energy that way.

But that's more on a personal note in a different context, not to deflate your victory over the far more important field of real life office politics.

It's more about office politics than it is about DV....But go ahead and pat yourself on the back for making it about Geldon.

[geldonyetich]

It's more about office politics than it is about DV....But go ahead and pat yourself on the back for making it about Geldon.

I wasn't really trying, but I have to say that it can't really be done without posts such as this.  Well done, my astute accomplice.

[daveNYC]

For those that missed it, the moral of the story was that if you fuck with me, you will be publically humiliated for my amusement.

That's all well and good, but if you were truely hooked up, you'd be in a position where people just wouldn't fuck with you in the first place.  Not having stupid dumped on you at work is a good thing.  When you can get it.

[Margalis]

You both sounds like idiots. I'd want neither of you working for me or any company I was a part of. The guy acted like an unprofessional moron, so you did the same right back - wonderful story!

[Abagadro]

Decaf man, give it a try.

[Roac]

Seriously, people are creatures of habit, if your manager comes in and says "I need this done right away" and you say "I'm sorry but I'm busy" then proceed to tell them your job description and how it doesn't include doing random shit for them, it leaves an impression. They will not ask you for help carelessly again.

What kind of spineless boss do you have?  If one of my subordinates replied with that, I would first note to them that "I wasn't asking."  Failing that, they'd get written up and I'd file a personal note to bitch slap them on their review.  If that didn't get the message across, they'd be gone.  Not because it's fun to be mean to people (it makes my job 10x harder), but because as a manager, you can't manage people if they decide to spend their time against their manager's needs (note that some fields don't work quite that way, but most do).  If the Big Boss decides something needs to happen, then it happens - it doesn't matter how busy I am, or what else I may need to be doing.  I work at their leisure, and can do what they want, or leave.  And I do hold that option in reserve.  The decision can be debated, discussed, and counter proposals made, but ultimately, it's the boss' call.

I agree with Margalis, I don't see anything except unprofessionalism.  I guess good for you if you can get away with it, but IMO it's a pretty lousy boss that lets people get away with that kind of divisive attitude.

[stray]

What kind of spineless boss do you have?

You seemed to have missed this part:

then proceed to tell them your job description and how it doesn't include doing random shit for them, it leaves an impression.

Roac, if you think being a manager is about handing out your work, then you're the one that's being "unprofessional". Employees are judged on how they do their job (y'know, the one they were hired for?), not on how they didn't fulfill "your needs".

Do you really want to people to go that extra step? Then get them to like you: Do a favor for them first, stay out of their hair, and stop being a prick. Believe me, soon enough, you won't even have to ask.

That, or hire an assistant.

If one of my subordinates replied with that, I would first note to them that "I wasn't asking."

Lucky for people like you, I'm self-employed.

[Murgos]

Its fairly common in very technical areas for the 'manager' to be less educated and less well paid than even the most noobler engineer on the team they manage.   They are literally there simply to ensure that the teams needs are met, to interface with higher management and that someone is tracking day to day activity.

In those circumstances telling an engineer to do something can generally get that manager fired or shuffled off to a less critical area of the company.

[Paelos]

I can say that in the offices I worked at, I've had some stupid managers. Stupid with people but never with their job. You get to the top in accounting because you know the rules, you know the system, and you know how to get things done. I've never had a boss ask me to walk his dog, pick up his laundry, or do something of that nature. If you can do it in the office, then guess what, IT JUST BECAME YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION.

Stop holding onto your description or title like it's made out of stone and you'll go further in the world.

[UD_Delt]

I'm not sure what your post has to do with office politics. It just sounds like a disagreement between two people, neither of whom have a clue what office politics actually is...

Seems to me you both need a lesson on how to properly communicate in an office environment.

[Calantus]

Seriously, people are creatures of habit, if your manager comes in and says "I need this done right away" and you say "I'm sorry but I'm busy" then proceed to tell them your job description and how it doesn't include doing random shit for them, it leaves an impression. They will not ask you for help carelessly again.

What kind of spineless boss do you have?  If one of my subordinates replied with that, I would first note to them that "I wasn't asking."  Failing that, they'd get written up and I'd file a personal note to bitch slap them on their review.  If that didn't get the message across, they'd be gone.  Not because it's fun to be mean to people (it makes my job 10x harder), but because as a manager, you can't manage people if they decide to spend their time against their manager's needs (note that some fields don't work quite that way, but most do).  If the Big Boss decides something needs to happen, then it happens - it doesn't matter how busy I am, or what else I may need to be doing.  I work at their leisure, and can do what they want, or leave.  And I do hold that option in reserve.  The decision can be debated, discussed, and counter proposals made, but ultimately, it's the boss' call.

I agree with Margalis, I don't see anything except unprofessionalism.  I guess good for you if you can get away with it, but IMO it's a pretty lousy boss that lets people get away with that kind of divisive attitude.

I would consider doing something a manager/boss requires a subordinate to do as being part of just about any job description. If someone stuffs up a DB entry and she wants me to fix it then I'd be ok with that because she is perfectly within her rights to give it to me. I wont be all "but fixing DB entries isn't in my job description" or "it wasn't my mistake", I'll do it. If on the other hand she wants to hand me something that is either her job, or far and away beyond the scope of my job then she will be told in no uncertain terms that I will not do it.

If I do 100% of the work that legitimately comes across my desk, anything she says in my reviews will be ignored unless it's really severe. And if I get called up before review and tell them I refused because she was trying to palm her work off onto me it would make her look much worse in comparison.

Also, a boss is different than a manager. If a boss wants you to do something you do it or expect consequences. A manager however only has powers they are allowed by higher-ups and have a variable amount of influence on your progression within the company/organisation depending on the structure of your workplace.



As an aside, in my current position I can defer ALOT of things her way instead of doing them myself without it showing up in my performance review. If she sent me random crap for subordinates it could end in me sending her at least twice as much work that she cannot pass on, and I can even re-delegate the work she sends me. I think she realises this as I haven't had even the smallest request outside of my job description from her since my new position. Or it could be because she realises that my time is best spent doing my actual job (which ironically is based on helping others).

[Shockeye]

You get to the top in accounting because you know the rules, you know the system, and you know how to get things done.

I was under the impression you get to the top with blackmail.

[Paelos]

You get to the top in accounting because you know the rules, you know the system, and you know how to get things done.

I was under the impression you get to the top with blackmail.

I wouldn't really know, I slept my way to the top.

[Roac]

Roac, if you think being a manager is about handing out your work, then you're the one that's being "unprofessional". Employees are judged on how they do their job (y'know, the one they were hired for?), not on how they didn't fulfill "your needs".

Misread 4tw.  No, that's not what I said.  Managers [generally] decide what the job of their employees are to be.  He's normally the guy that assigns projects and deadlines (hopefully with input).  

Scenario; manager comes to employee asking about information.  There's a meeting he was only just told about, and he has to get stuff together for the exec who wants it.  Employee says "no, not right now".  Wrong answer.  Piss about it all you want, but that's not how an office is run.

Do you really want to people to go that extra step? Then get them to like you:

They do like me.  I have about a third of our department under me, and the other two thirds are begging to be transferred.  When I need things to get done, I need them to be done.  I realize it's demoralizing to have a "top priority" item get thrown in one's lap, but it's only because someone did the same thing to me.  It screws up my projects and deadlines too.  They like me because I do what I can to put a stop to it, but there really are last minute "must have"s that screw with our ideal schedule, and saying "not now" isn't an option.

Unfortunately, there are unforseen issues that come up that absolutely must be delt with, because handling these issues are also our jobs.

[Daeven]

If you can do it in the office, then guess what, IT JUST BECAME YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION.

Stop holding onto your description or title like it's made out of stone and you'll go further in the world.

Here is my 'twist' on this. I'm one of those annoying highly paid software consultant types that is brought in to write working code. I'll do whatever you ask me. However, I have a fiduciary responsibility to my client to point out when they are failing to use my skills in the most productive manner possible.

If they want to pay me gobs of money per hour to walk their dog, fine by me. It's fucking retarded, and it is my JOB to tell them that it is fucking retarded. But if that's what they want me to do, so be it.

Worst case scenario, I decline to renew the contract at the termination date and find something else so I don't have to play on the short bus any more.

*shrug*

[Paelos]

That's a good point. Productivity is an important part of any job. If I think I'm being misused, I ask them about what their priorities are. I'll tell them what I have on my plate and how they'd like it ordered. If I have two people that need to things done, I follow the one that's higher on the food chain. I'd rather neglect my immediate boss than piss off the top dog, and I can explain that easily.

[Calantus]

Scenario; manager comes to employee asking about information.  There's a meeting he was only just told about, and he has to get stuff together for the exec who wants it.  Employee says "no, not right now".  Wrong answer.  Piss about it all you want, but that's not how an office is run.

This tells me we have a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should refuse to do things because you are busy. What I am saying is that I wont do things that are not part of my job, and as I said, doing something that a manager has a right to pass on to a subordinate is in every job description.

I notice the other section heads tend to pass on things they should do and it's just plain wrong. For example, about a week before my holidays we had to send in a review of new software we had been given. It was given directly to the section heads a month prior and we were told to monitor how the system was working and gather responses from our section and write up the review at the end of the month. I was the only section head not to pass the responsibility to a sub-ordinate. That's the kind of thing people should refuse because it is NOT your job to do it.

Within the first fortnight of working at the office the manager asked me to go over a number of forms and correct as necessary when that is specifically her job. That's the kind of thing I refuse to do on principle if someone justs asks me. If she gets a "generic person needs to do this" I'll do it, if she gets "X person/job needs to do this" and tries to hand it to me when I'm not "X" then she will be refused.

I'm not there to do another person's job for them. If I offer to help then I'll take on whatever they need help with. If they come to me pleading for help and they aren't a chronic pleader then I'll most probably help too. Otherwise, I'll not be their little pass-to boy.

I'm not saying that people should refuse to do stuff because they're busy/cbf'd or should be anal about their job description. What I'm saying is you shouldn't roll-over and do someone else's job just because they ask you to. Even if they are your manager.

[Dark Vengeance]

Bear in mind, this wasn't a case of me being asked to do something by a superior. It was a case of me being asked to do something by what I'll term an "internal customer".

Now with what I do, there are several instances of things that I would do for this person. Basically things related to his sales territory, giving him tips on uncovering opportunity, using the various tools available to him for territory management, and so forth.

When said person dogs me about how to use Excel, especially when I am under the gun on a deadline, I get irritated when they get pissy about it. Proficiency in Excel is supposed to be a job requirement for that position, so it kind of irks me when a guy easily making 2-3 times what I do has to ask for my help to do a sum on a spreadsheet.

It wasn't a matter of "it's not my job", it's a matter that when your boss tells you "this project takes priority over EVERYTHING ELSE", you don't set it aside to teach someone how to do basic formulas in Excel. To be fair, this was a tad like a guy walking into Burger King while they had a fire raging in the kitchen, and vehemently demanding that they serve him a chalupa.

Unfortunately because one of my job duties includes maintaining our sales database, some reps get it in their mind that I'm another IT guy, or that I'm somehow their resource for all things related to computers.

Just understand, 999 times out of 1000, I'm fucking delightful. A joy to be around, and interact with in the workplace. But when a co-worker evokes the DV within me, mildly amusing anecdotes ensue.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Roac]

This tells me we have a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should refuse to do things because you are busy. What I am saying is that I wont do things that are not part of my job, and as I said, doing something that a manager has a right to pass on to a subordinate is in every job description.

You're right, that does change things a good bit.  Still, I would say the preferred method would be to do it anyway, and followup with emails/talks complaining about the item.  Some bosses would either write you up for "that's not my job", or decline to pass out raises/promotions to you because you're not a "team player".  

But, I've found that depends a good deal on corp. culture where you're at.  Some places rigidly enforce position descriptions, while others don't.  We don't where I'm at - if someone drops the ball, it's your responsibility to pick it up.  The catch is that you can now show to your boss that you're doing someone else's job because they're too incompetant.  They get fired for that.

[Stephen Zepp]

The catch is that you can now show to your boss that you're doing someone else's job because they're too incompetant.  They get fired for that.

And quickly thereafter, the task(s) they perform is added to your job description without any additional pay or authority.

[Dark Vengeance]

The catch is that you can now show to your boss that you're doing someone else's job because they're too incompetant.  They get fired for that.

And quickly thereafter, the task(s) they perform is added to your job description without any additional pay or authority.

HE SHOOTS, HE SCORES!!!

Stephen hit that right on the nose.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Calantus]

But, I've found that depends a good deal on corp. culture where you're at.  Some places rigidly enforce position descriptions, while others don't.  We don't where I'm at - if someone drops the ball, it's your responsibility to pick it up.

Yeah, that is true. As a government department our roles are strictly defined, and there is little variation in the work we do, so it's very easy to see what is your job and what isn't. Plus there is an external review process for promotions in addition to promotion through superiors, so it's easy enough to fall back on that if you piss your manager off. Transfers are also relatively easy to come by after a few months of being on the list.

[Miguel]

This story is (mildly) related, so I thought I would share it:

About 5 or 6 years ago, I was working for a very large chip manufacturer (chief microprocessor competition to Intel, so I'll bet you can figure out which one).  I was designing chips at the time, and I got put under a new boss.

This guy was pretty cool at first.  He had been at the company for a long time, and had a kick-ass-take-names kinda attitude, which I respected.  I had dealt with him in a lateral sort of fashion before:  I consulted with him for information on my projects, however I did not report to him in any way directly at the time.

For about one year, it was pretty good.  I received good projects, always got them done in time.  Then came Project Disaster.

What basically happened was this:  my boss got romanced by a new chip tester company, and decided to spend 6 million dollars of R&D cash (about 30% of our groups budget for the year) to purchase a very advanced testing system.  He did this against his own managers recommendation (the director of the division).  So one fateful day, he appears in my work hole and asks me to help him bring up this new system.

Like some of the others here,  I figured "what my boss says I do, I do".  I figured this was my chance to hit one out of the park by saving his ass, with the side benefit of me being able to trumpet this fact come time for raises for the forseeable future.  He knew my background was in software (I dual majored in college, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, because I didn't know what I wanted to do out of college), so he told me I was the only person in the company qualified to do this job.  What he really meant to say was that (most) hardware designers wouldn't touch a software project with a 100 meter pole, either due to technical snobbery or lack of understanding, but I digress.

So I began bringing this test system up with one of our current designs.  This thing came bare bones: with a compiler and an instruction manual, that's it.  What my boss failed to tell me was that he was expecting me to accomplish this miracle in addition to all of my current design activities.  This became abundantly clear when our current project schedule slipped, and I was called in to get reamed out for allowing it to happen.

So I basically started working from 8 in the morning untill about 11pm at night.  I would do my chip design work from 8 until about 3pm, then I would put on my software engineer hat, and go down to our lab and write C code from 3pm until about 11pm.  I was working two complete jobs, all for the same pay and recognition (as a poster stated above).  This lasted for the better part of nine months.

Fast forward to the unveiling of this project after nine months of work.  All in all, I thought it was a great success.  There were a total of 46 test routines that needed to be applied to the chip, I had successfully completed 45 of them, all by myself (each one entailed around 500-1,000 lines of code, along with a 'pattern instruction' library which is like assembly code).  The last one would not work due to a quirk in the hardware of the tester, for which I could not find any software workaround, and for which I got the tester manufacturer to write me a letter stating it was a design flaw, which would be fixed in the future.  During the unveiling, another manager asked me about this problem, and I explained there was nothing that could be done.

I was called into my bosses office later that day, and he was in a fury.  Apparently he got yelled at for the failing test, as he did not properly ascertain the suitability of the system for our needs.  I held up my hands, saying that the project was presented to me after the purchase was complete, and that I would not be held responsible.  I was docked 30% of my yearly bonus, and my raise for the year was cancelled.  I was given a less than satisfactory review because my software work 'hindered project development' for my 'other' job.  Needless to say I immediately started looking for a new job (the one I hold presently).  Sad thing is I hear word that this system has been used to qualify half a dozen chip projects based on my work, and I never even received credit for doing it!

I call this effect 'Trickle Down Ass Reaming'.  This is where someone gets yelled at near the top, and the blame is cast down through the ranks before it ends up sticking on the poor engineer at the bottom. :)

I learned a valuable lesson during this exchange.  The first and foremost is that when your work load/job responsibility is changed, get it in fucking writing.  50% of my problem with this guy was that I could not prove to my HR department that he had even told me to work on this new project, to say nothing of how much extra time I had spent.  Hence it would not be added to my goal sheet, which means I could not get credit for it!  My new boss is very good about this:  when he comes to me for something short term or really important, he sends me an email, then adds the goal to my goal list.  Since our incentives are goal based, any extra activities that I take on outside of my pre-agreed goals are compensated for directly.

So doing whatever the boss wants without question can be a disaster, especially if he/she/it is vindictive in nature.  You can rest assured that your higher-ups are going to be covering their asses, so it is wise to do the same yourself.