BOA Items

[Rendakor]

It actually isn't quite that bad - you only have to be a champion with one city to open up the first bunch of champion seal quests (and don't need to be exalted), which if you do all of them I think amounts to 5 seals per day or so. I think there are more once you get to be an exalted champion of everything, though, I don't know anything about those. The tournament instance also drops champion seals on heroic that anyone can get. 60 seals for a chest piece. Can you get shoulders that way? Not sure.

Grinding the Champion's Seals isn't the hard part. However, when you are only champion with one city, all you can spend the Seals on is pets, mounts, and blues/ilvl200 purples. You need the Crusader title (Exalted Champion of the Horde/Alliance + Exalted with Argent Crusade) in order to spend the Seals on BoA gear; that's considerably more work than running a few heroics.

[Ingmar]

It actually isn't quite that bad - you only have to be a champion with one city to open up the first bunch of champion seal quests (and don't need to be exalted), which if you do all of them I think amounts to 5 seals per day or so. I think there are more once you get to be an exalted champion of everything, though, I don't know anything about those. The tournament instance also drops champion seals on heroic that anyone can get. 60 seals for a chest piece. Can you get shoulders that way? Not sure.

Grinding the Champion's Seals isn't the hard part. However, when you are only champion with one city, all you can spend the Seals on is pets, mounts, and blues/ilvl200 purples. You need the Crusader title (Exalted Champion of the Horde/Alliance + Exalted with Argent Crusade) in order to spend the Seals on BoA gear; that's considerably more work than running a few heroics.

Ah, I didn't realize that part. Well shoot!

[Kitsune]

The daily quests involved in getting Crusader are very lucrative, and once you get the title it opens better quests.  They're worth doing for the gold and easy rep alone; building up champion seals to buy awesome XP-boosting gear for your alts is just icing on the cake.  Anyone with an 80 should be farming the hell out of the Tournament.

[Rendakor]

I'm not debating the worth of the Tournament for acquiring gold or rep. You cannot argue, however, that it is the easiest path to BoA gear. PUGing heroics is ridiculously easy, even as something as overplayed as a DPS DK, as long as you aren't an obnoxious fucktard. Grinding all 5 of your factions to Exalted takes a LONG time; longer if you are using the Tournament as your sole source of reputation gains.

[Merusk]

Took me about 24 hours on my DK to hit Exalted on everything.  Characters who actually had to level-up through noob zones and areas that gave faction gains should take less time since they're most likely at least honored with their lowest city.

If you like PVP, run AV. Stay on defense and do turn-ins of armor and blood/ druid orbs (Wing Commanders don't typically live long enough to do the medal turn-ins anymore).  You start gaining "Horde" or "Alliance" faction instead of Ironforge/ Org after you're exalted with that rep. 

[Lantyssa]

I've never had a problem with city faction.  My Druid was exalted with two, and revered with the other three before I ever reached the tournament.  I'm maybe one quest-based run through Gnomeragon and a handful of Azuremist quests from maxing everything.

[Delmania]

I reached exalted with all the Horde cities by doing all of the quests in the pre20 areas, which are  unique for each city.  Once you reach 20 it's off to Silverpine or the Barrens.  The hardest part for me was the Argent Crusade.  I did every quest that gave reputation in Ice Crown and Zul'Drak, and then still had to spend a week doing the Champion quest for rep to finish it out.  I am glad I did it on my warlock since she got 7 titles for it, but it's not something I'd repeat on an alt.  I'm actually taking a break from the dailies to powerlevel Alchemy.

[Kitsune]

In order to become a Crusader, you need to complete 125 daily quests (25 tokens to turn in per city faction to become a champion of that city).  That's 12,450 total rep you'll get per city faction: 250 per quest for the faction you're working for, 62 per quest for the other four.  In addition, each quest gives 250 in the new Argent faction as well, for 31,250 with them.  Once you've become a champion of one faction, you can start doing the champion quests.  There are four of those, they give five champion seals between them, and you can get one token per quest that you can turn in for another 250 (+62 for the others) faction for the city that you turn it in to, on top of 750 argent crusade rep for doing the champion quests.

So basically every day you get:

2000 rep with one city.
500 rep with each other city.
1000 rep with the Silver Covenant.
750 rep with the Argent Crusade.
5 Champion Seals.
100ish gold.

For doing those eight easy daily quests.  The game basically forces you to do this for 25 days, as there's no way to increase the speed of getting the 125 tokens to become a champion of all the cities.  Once you're done, though, it's nearly impossible not to be exalted across the board and have access to very lucrative new daily quests, on top of the very nice goodies only available to crusaders.

[Rendakor]

The tournament is awesome, I get that. However, the question was how best to acquire BoA gear; if you run two heroic dungeons a day for 8 Emblems of Conquest, it would only take you 10 days to get both the chest and the shoulders; 5 days if you already have the shoulders from WG. Of course, there are more than two heroics out there, so you can actually get them MUCH faster (in terms of real days, not timed /played) if you are willing to run more dungeons/day.

[WindupAtheist]

Jousting is terrible and not fun.

[Soulflame]

Jousting is terrible and not fun.

Jousting isn't horrible if you group up.  While someone on a different mount can't help you, they can dps your opponent if they are not on a vehicle.

Jousting solo is a miserable experience that sometimes causes me to yell at my monitor.

[Delmania]

Jousting is terrible and not fun.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't cause my system to lag. 

[March]

Jousting is terrible and not fun.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't cause my system to lag. 

I wouldn't mind it so much if it worked.

[Paelos]

It's part of the "those ideas" that Blizzard is shifting from again. I give them credit for trying, and I honestly believe they had a place for jousting in a fight for Icecrown, but they tested it in the five man to see the reaction for the playerbase. Guess what? It was overwhelmingly suck-ass. At the beginning of the expansion, vehicles were the rage and they were using them in full force. It was supposed to be the defining mark of this expansion that vehicles were a viable mechanic in pve fights.

Now, the shit hit the fan. The dragon riding scenario was a disaster, the Ulduar stuff had to be upgraded to gear rating, and the jousting was blasted as horribly out of place. Three strikes and you're out on vehicles in the future of raiding.

[Selby]

Three strikes and you're out on vehicles in the future of raiding.

If they had made the vehicles scale with gear from the beginning and they hadn't lagged as badly as they did (jousting is still horrid for this) they probably would have stood a chance.  As it is, they can stick them, and the majority of the player base appears to agree with me.  No one does Maly or Oculus unless they have guilds or friends for the achievements.

[Paelos]

Three strikes and you're out on vehicles in the future of raiding.

If they had made the vehicles scale with gear from the beginning and they hadn't lagged as badly as they did (jousting is still horrid for this) they probably would have stood a chance.  As it is, they can stick them, and the majority of the player base appears to agree with me.  No one does Maly or Oculus unless they have guilds or friends for the achievements.

It makes logical sense when you step back from the design template or the keyboard and analyze why people play WoW. The game revolves around levelling up characters and throwing new clothes on them. It doesn't matter how you do it, but that's your base audience. Vehicles take everything WoW is based on and essentially throws it out the window. You might as well be playing a horribly shitty shooter on some of the earlier fights. I won't even get into the shock value of not being able to use any abilities you are familiar with...

[Selby]

I won't even get into the shock value of not being able to use any abilities you are familiar with...

This is where 90% of the Maly fights end badly.  You are DPSing the boss normally, get a phase with some mobs to kill and some stuff to avoid, then *bam* vehicle fight that isn't like anything else in the game and no way to practice elsewhere.  People freak the fuck out and don't know what to do, and the raid wipes since at that point it's a pure DPS race and when people are dropping like flies, the few who do keep it together can't do enough damage regardless of their gear or skills they have practiced and learned everywhere else for the last 80 levels.  Whereas in a heroic or regular raid boss fight even if you lose some people, if you have good DPS you can at least stand a chance to make up for the piles of bodies on the floor (25-minute Heigan dance anyone?).

Ulduar is at least quick and out of the way early.  If it had been minus Flame Leviathan as-is until you get to Yogg and then a vehicle fight?  Nerd rage.

[SurfD]

I won't even get into the shock value of not being able to use any abilities you are familiar with...

This is where 90% of the Maly fights end badly.  You are DPSing the boss normally, get a phase with some mobs to kill and some stuff to avoid, then *bam* vehicle fight that isn't like anything else in the game and no way to practice elsewhere.  People freak the fuck out and don't know what to do, and the raid wipes since at that point it's a pure DPS race and when people are dropping like flies, the few who do keep it together can't do enough damage regardless of their gear or skills they have practiced and learned everywhere else for the last 80 levels.  Whereas in a heroic or regular raid boss fight even if you lose some people, if you have good DPS you can at least stand a chance to make up for the piles of bodies on the floor (25-minute Heigan dance anyone?).

Ulduar is at least quick and out of the way early.  If it had been minus Flame Leviathan as-is until you get to Yogg and then a vehicle fight?  Nerd rage.

Not to nitpick, but there is actually a daily quest, up on one of the rings of the Occulus (outside in the main world zone) that has you take controll of a red drake that is pretty much EXACTLY like the drakes you will later be using in the Malygos fight.  And after you do the daily at least once, you have the option of grabbing the drake and practicing how to use it's abilities to your hearts content.   So it is not entirely true that they slapped you with a vehicle fight that you had no way to prepare for.   That the vast majority of people still suck at controlling a vehicle in a 3d movement environemnt in a group situation is still very true however.

[Selby]

So it is not entirely true that they slapped you with a vehicle fight that you had no way to prepare for.   That the vast majority of people still suck at controlling a vehicle in a 3d movement environemnt in a group situation is still very true however.

While the controls were the similar, the maneuvering of everyone around and the healing of others were surprises to many people.  No one I knew ever did that quest except me ;-)

[Shrike]

There is a daily which supposedly gets you ready for Malygos. Now that defination of "ready" has a lot of room for interpretation,  but the mechanics still suck regardless of whatever "practice" you manage to get in (and the daily blows goats as well). The death of vehicle mechanics is a good thing. A very good thing. A truly great thing.

It won't be missed in Cataclysm.

[Paelos]

There is a daily which supposedly gets you ready for Malygos. Now that defination of "ready" has a lot of room for interpretation,  but the mechanics still suck regardless of whatever "practice" you manage to get in (and the daily blows goats as well). The death of vehicle mechanics is a good thing. A very good thing. A truly great thing.

It won't be missed in Cataclysm.

The daily might get you ready if it dropped your ass in the middle of a fight and said GO!

[Kail]

The death of vehicle mechanics is a good thing. A very good thing. A truly great thing.

I dunno, personally, I liked them.

Now, I never had to do any of the vehicle raid stuff, so I have no idea about that.  Maybe it is a retarded idea, or maybe it can work if it's done better.  Maybe not.  I dunno.

But when leveling up, those were often my favorite quests.  Gives me a bit of a break from my "snare dot fireball fireball fireball rest" routine.  Plus, some of the really epic stuff was done on vehicles, like that storm giant bit.  More variation in gameplay is something I enjoy.  Plus, they generally had less of a "locked in mortal combat with a hideous monster" feel and more of a "HAHAHAHAAHHA DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE AAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAA!" feel to them.

I can see where they'd be annoying if you had to do them over and over again (jousting was not my favorite), but I don't know that I'd like to see them gone from everything.

[dd0029]

"HAHAHAHAAHHA DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE AAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAA!" feel to them.

I can see where they'd be annoying if you had to do them over and over again (jousting was not my favorite), but I don't know that I'd like to see them gone from everything.

Only Flame Leviathan of the raid vehicle encounters comes close, but even that misses the stupid fun of the storm giant.  With Flame Leviathan, you could actually get overwhelmed.  Most of the other vehicle encounters were the mobs getting the " "HAHAHAHAAHHA DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE AAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAA!".  Maly and occulus really highlight the fact that 3d control seriously lacks and the camera is crap for it when you actually need to fight in 3d.  Figuring out which dragon is shooting you in Occulus can be really thrilling.

[K9]

The only fun vehicle fights were the quest ones where the fun of stomping things overcame the flaws of the system.

[Selby]

Now, I never had to do any of the vehicle raid stuff, so I have no idea about that.

The raid and heroic dungeon vehicle fights were awful except for FL, and I believe they even made some changes on that when it was on PTR before it went live to ensure the playerbase didn't nerdrage all over the place over it.

I didn't think that vehicles were bad either.  Then I went to raids where you get dumped into them in the middle of a fight and aren't overpowered or designed to crush hundreds of mobs with zero effort like the quests.  You had to rely on 9 or 24 other people to know how to maneuver and hit all of the right buttons in the right order and with the right cooldowns, regardless of how their class originally played.  Then the frustration becomes quite apparent.

[Shrike]

Flame Leviathan is actually pretty fun. Though, after the 40th time, it's gotten a bit old, but so does about anything. Some of the PvE stuff (Storm Giant, Titan walker/weapon construct) is OK. The rest of it--especially the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned jousting--sucks syphilitic bison balls. It needs to die yesterday.

I was looking to pick up another trinket for my ret pally, but I sat for about five minutes staring at the jousting quest and thought, "No. Just no. No sir, I don't like it." Pally has to wait for mail from my warrior.

[Paelos]

If you ever raided later in the second expansion, and you remember the Teron Gorefiend fight from Black Temple, then you remember the absolute low point of Blizzard using vehicle mechanics. The funny part was it happened way before they ever put actual vehicles into the game, but the mechanics were exactly the same. Even then, people went apeshit over the fight, but Blizzard pressed on believing that wresting control of a player's character would somehow result in fun.

So far, it never has.

[Shrike]

I"d blocked the Gorefiend horsehit from my mind. Yeah, that was bad. Really bad.

Soooo...it's no surprise it's really annoying and infuriating in WotLK. Fundamentally, I don't like losing control of my characters (they are why I play the game; not some half-baked minigame), and I don't like trying to learn a new mechaninc 10 seconds into a fight--when I have 70-80 levels of practice doing something else. A few things are fun--like the giant whupass or the werewolf escape ride--but only as a brief interlude. Less is more. A LOT less. Make it so.

[Soulflame]

My absolute "favorite" moment in vehicle raid fights to date is the time we managed a good phase 1 and 2 on maly 25, only to plummet straight past the drakes to a horrible death at the start of phase 3.  I'm pretty sure that's the last time we've been back there.

I think vehicle mechanics are okay if used sparingly.  Sadly, that has not been the case with this expansion.  I think jousting could be "fixed" if they'd just add equipment levels to your vehicle, but they'll likely do this long after everyone stops doing it.  Which will probably be about a week before the release of 3.3, as people gird themselves for yet another rep grind.        

 

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, and all the vehicle/gimmick shit is what made Isle of Conquest a big fat flop. There's NEVER more than one IoC running on my server group, but frequently two or three instances of AV.

[Simond]

Didn't one of the lead devs for WoW turn around at a fairly recent developer conference and basically say "Yeah, that whole show-piece gimmick for WotLK that is vehicles? Fucking terrible idea"

[Paelos]

Didn't one of the lead devs for WoW turn around at a fairly recent developer conference and basically say "Yeah, that whole show-piece gimmick for WotLK that is vehicles? Fucking terrible idea"

If he did, give him a raise. Also give him more control.

[Simond]

Just checked, and it was Tigole's presentation at the GDC earlier this year, and there was already a thread about it.

[Jeff Kelly]

Hey, at least they try things out, keep them when they work and scrap them when they don't. That's not "turning around" that'ts learning from experience.

Not everything that sounded good at the developer meeting turns out to be a great idea once it's implemented in the wild.

Having the guts to openly state this at a public developers conference? Even better.

[Shrike]

Oh, it's good and I'm glad to see they do pay attention to the playerbase--and that they learn from these mistakes.

Nevertheless, the vehicle stuff largely sucked and it needed to be toned down a LOT. So it looks like they're doing just that. Great. I'm still going to gloat, however, since it did suck and I've had to put up with it for a year.