Burning, lynching and general fucking monstrosities.

[Rodent]

I just saw some of the pictures of the burned and lynched americans in Iraq... Made me sick to my stomach. From what our media reports most of thoose images aren't being aired in the US and you should consider yourself thankfull for it.

It made me wonder just how much media needs to show, I know I for one would rather not see charred and bloody corpses when I turn on the television in the early evening, this is one of the few times I've thought "What if there are children watching this?".

[Bstaz]

Whoa.. yeah good thing no kids saw that  on TV.. oh wait what about the kids in Iraq that see people of their country dying.  You wonder why they can hate so well, they see the raw violence and we see the PG-13 version.

Yeah keep the reality of war away from us Americans, keep it all nice and clean if we pump enough money into the problem it will go away right?  One of the biggest problems of war is no one knows what war  is really like anymore.. with the exception of the  people dying.


Maybe if they dragged a corpse though Main Street USA we'd think a bit more before we jumped into fighting, we would hold our leaders more accountable for their decisions, and we would better take care of  our people when they came back from service.


So many troops are coming back with their lives in ruins.. but hey atleast they are not dead right?

http://www.progressive.org/april04/zinn0404.html

[Snowspinner]

If children are watching this, they'll just learn an important lesson:

Brown people are bad.

[DarkDryad]

Whoa.. yeah good thing no kids saw that  on TV.. oh wait what about the kids in Iraq that see people of their country dying.  You wonder why they can hate so well, they see the raw violence and we see the PG-13 version.

Yeah keep the reality of war away from us Americans, keep it all nice and clean if we pump enough money into the problem it will go away right?  One of the biggest problems of war is no one knows what war  is really like anymore.. with the exception of the  people dying.


Maybe if they dragged a corpse though Main Street USA we'd think a bit more before we jumped into fighting, we would hold our leaders more accountable for their decisions, and we would better take care of  our people when they came back from service.


So many troops are coming back with their lives in ruins.. but hey atleast they are not dead right?

http://www.progressive.org/april04/zinn0404.html

Or the people who have actually been in one.

[Ballast]

Very trite, Bstaz.

I'm sure you also think the horrors that Hussein's regime inflicted on his own people were just and right.

While it may very well be quixotic for the US to go off righting international wrongs, and you may have issues with the prioritization, it is hard to deny that a post-Hussein Iraq will be better off.

[Snowspinner]

While it may very well be quixotic for the US to go off righting international wrongs, and you may have issues with the prioritization, it is hard to deny that a post-Hussein Iraq will be better off.

I'm not sure a warlord-run anarchy is an improvement over well-ordered tyranny, really...

[Ballast]

Your implied definition of "well-ordered" is rather suspect.

Do you honestly believe that order through abject terror is acceptable and preferable to what is in place now? I'm not whether to call that myopic, or just sadistic.

[daveNYC]

I'm sure we believed that Afghanistan was better off after the Soviets got kicked out.  Myopic indeed.

The question isn't whether the Iraqis are better off with Saddam gone, it's "Will they be better off with what we leave them?"

[Snowspinner]

Your implied definition of "well-ordered" is rather suspect.

Do you honestly believe that order through abject terror is acceptable and preferable to what is in place now? I'm not whether to call that myopic, or just sadistic.

Well, I mean, let's face it - most Iraqis weren't gassed or tortured. Yes, some were, but most? No.

Now? Places that used to have water and electricity reliably no longer do.

I mean, yeah, I have a hard time saying the day-to-day lives of most Iraqis was improved. It may be that we didn't make it any worse, but, really, with the amount of money we threw into the Iraq war, I think one can fairly expect better than "No change."

[koboshi]

I just saw some of the pictures of the burned and lynched americans in Iraq... Made me sick to my stomach. From what our media reports most of thoose images aren't being aired in the US and you should consider yourself thankfull for it.

It made me wonder just how much media needs to show, I know I for one would rather not see charred and bloody corpses when I turn on the television in the early evening, this is one of the few times I've thought "What if there are children watching this?".

If every mother fucker who thought that this war was ok was strapped down clockwork orange style when they were children and forced to watch the deaths of every person, civilian and military, who died in this war I can't believe this war would have occurred.  Yes romantic violence like that found in movies should not be shown to children, but to extend that to forcing the media to hide reality is idiocy in the extreme.  Every child should know what war means.  Action should only be taken with a full understanding of the outcome, and when action is taken the media has a responsibility to show us everything that we've done. If you hide our history from our children then they will be doomed to repeat it.

[Xilren's Twin]

If every mother fucker who thought that this war was ok was strapped down clockwork orange style when they were children and forced to watch the deaths of every person, civilian and military, who died in this war I can't believe this war would have occurred.  Yes romantic violence like that found in movies should not be shown to children, but to extend that to forcing the media to hide reality is idiocy in the extreme.  Every child should know what war means.  Action should only be taken with a full understanding of the outcome, and when action is taken the media has a responsibility to show us everything that we've done. If you hide our history from our children then they will be doomed to repeat it.

Interesting, so you think forcing kids to watch real violence and death would equal them been so turned off by the ick factor they would never want to go instigate war again?  What happens is war was initiated against them instead by a less enlightened populace?  Besides, isn't there a large body of thought that exposing kids to continued images and stories of violence will actually end up desensitizing them to it thereby making it more like they would be ok with said violence?

Yeah, its off topic, but what the hell. :)

Xilren

[koboshi]

Interesting, so you think forcing kids to watch real violence and death would equal them been so turned off by the ick factor they would never want to go instigate war again?  What happens is war was initiated against them instead by a less enlightened populace?  

Iraq has never attacked the United States.
But I take your meaning, and yes I know war will always exist, but we don't need to initiate it.  If we are attacked we should defend ourselves.  And sometimes life must be taken in order to preserve life.  The problem is a life must be valuable or else it's not worth the price.  Every day I hear of another death with no meaning, usualy without even a name.  And the death of 600 means the same as one.  That's the problem.
We need to know the people involved.  We need more truth and less fear.

Besides, isn't there a large body of thought that exposing kids to continued images and stories of violence will actually end up desensitizing them to it thereby making it more like they would be ok with said violence?

Yes, I agree, fake violence like that in film and TV does desensitize.  When I watch a piece of fiction that includes the death of 20 or so extras it means nothing to me because I know they will stand up and wipe the fake blood off after the cameras cut.  I understood that from childhood.  People need to know death better. They don't need to fear death, they don't need to hate death, they need to understand death and all its implications.

[Foix]

I'm not sure a warlord-run anarchy is an improvement over well-ordered tyranny, really...

To be perfectly honest, I think this is about as good as it's going to get in terms of political stability in Iraq. I find it difficult to believe that ethnic and religious strife won't tear the country to pieces as soon as American forces are withdrawn, which means they most likely never will be as long as the current administration or its political heirs are in office: it would be political suicide. While our administration of order at gunpoint will certainly be far more humane than Saddam's, I doubt it will be very long before the majority of the country gets sick of bleeding away a soldier or two per day on Iraq's behalf for well into the forseeable future.

On an unrelated note, the American contractors who were murdered were mercenaries working for Blackwater. You have to wonder how thinly stretched our manpower is over there right now if the government is paying a premium to hire outside guns.

[Speedy Cerviche]

First off, the country's borders are pretty damn artificial anyways, just some arbitrary lines the British and French drew up after the Ottomon empire disintegrated. It's probably better in the long run to carve out some more natural boundries for the major competiting groups now, for the Kurds too, fuck Turkey, they're just a pain in the ass anyways who've never done anything useful in 1000 years.

And they should damn well put this stuff on TV also, there'd be a lot less retards defending murderers and torturers like Saddam Hussein and Castro as great guys who know how to run (into the ground) a country if they saw more graphically what them and their followers did. These people are savages.

The USA is giving them the greatest gift any country could ask for. Being relieved of a crappy despot who cares only about satiating his sick lust for power, and being rebuilt as a liberal democracy that has a chance to really be prosperous in 10-20 years.

[Romp]

yea but what are the odds of Iraq turning into a working liberal democracy?

[Speedy Cerviche]

Good if the USA/UN sticks around. They're a pretty well educated country, and will have tons of $$ once the oil starts pumping. And with the USA/UN in control, it won't be squandered like Saudi Arabia does with their oil money.

Edit: Also I hope vain Americans don't try and replicate their own political system in Iraq... With its conflicting populace, they'd be much better off with a british parliament style govt with propertional representation and also a canadian style federal system where the provinces have a lot of power, to the point where they are semi-autonomous.

[daveNYC]

The Kurds would get rid of that 'semi' so fast your head would spin.  Unless someone want's to chanel the ghost of Tito, I don't think anything will work.

[Romp]

Good if the USA/UN sticks around. They're a pretty well educated country, and will have tons of $$ once the oil starts pumping. And with the USA/UN in control, it won't be squandered like Saudi Arabia does with their oil money.

Edit: Also I hope vain Americans don't try and replicate their own political system in Iraq... With its conflicting populace, they'd be much better off with a british parliament style govt with propertional representation and also a canadian style federal system where the provinces have a lot of power, to the point where they are semi-autonomous.

yea but the US is pulling out in June and handing over to the governing Council.

I think it would be a miracle if it works, you have all these different power centers: 3 major racial/religious groupings (shiites, sunnis and kurds) plus some others, tons of tribal chieftans who pretty much rule their own areas and then you have religious leaders who are probably the most powerful of them all.  Plus you have Al Qaeda trying to stir up as much shit as they can.

All of these groups are armed to the teeth.  Even if somehow they can come to an agreement, which seems unlikely to me, whats the bet that the losing sides in an election are going to decide they dont like democracy anymore and start a civil war?

[Alrindel]

yea but the US is pulling out in June and handing over to the governing Council.

Not really.  Whoever the US hands power over to on that date - and it's still unclear who that will actually be - the US will still hold de facto control over Iraq and will be keeping at least 100,000 troops in place for the forseeable future.  The more subtle and more interesting question is how much the US is going to let the UN participate in deciding on how to attempt to build democracy in Iraq.

yea but what are the odds of Iraq turning into a working liberal democracy?

Slim at best.  As has been repeatedly pointed out, Iraq has no tradition of democracy or open society, it has ethnic and religious divisions with a history of violent clashes, it has several political factions competing for power, each with its own heavily armed militia, it is surrounded by foreign governments with their own vested interests in interfering with its future political development, it's in a region where the overall public sentiment is decidedly anti-western, and to top it off this democratic reform is being imposed by an occupying army.  It was George Soros, who has donated five billion dollars of his own money to promote democratic reform around the world, who wrote that Iraq was such a poor candidate for transformation into democracy, that George Bush was "giving nation-building a bad name".

[eldaec]

I'm not sure a warlord-run anarchy is an improvement over well-ordered tyranny, really...

If you so chose, the improvement could be measured in the number of children not killed by the old gang.

Lynchings are bad, mmkay.

But let's not pretend that similar things didn't happen in the formative years of some/any/all other democracies.

Also, for what it's worth, my understanding was that the pictures in question were of iraqis who had been working in CPA facilities being lynched?

Not that this makes it ok, but it does explain why you don't know the names of the people involved; and why dozens of people who never met them, but happen to live in their hometown, aren't on TV every hour lauding the dead as heroes.

Iraq has no tradition of democracy

Nor did America in any significant way before the revolution.

Apparently some people died during that one too.

it has ethnic and religious divisions with a history of violent clashes

So did America.

it is surrounded by foreign governments with their own vested interests in interfering with its future political development

ditto

It was George Soros, who has donated five billion dollars of his own money to promote democratic reform around the world, who wrote that Iraq was such a poor candidate for transformation into democracy, that George Bush was "giving nation-building a bad name".

You make a fair point in relative terms (espeicially compared to certain african nations), but the art of the possible applies to getting approval from national legislatures, just as much as to providing the actual military, political, and economic muscle; to do something about criminals who claim to be a running a country's "government" without any obvious mandate from or respect for it's populace.

Iraq was worth doing when it became possible. It became possible because enough people (for whatever reason) wanted it done. This doesn't mean there aren't other criminal gangs running countries that don't need dealing with, it's about saying that it's about time someone started somewhere.

[Rodent]

Also, for what it's worth, my understanding was that the pictures in question were of iraqis who had been working in CPA facilities being lynched?

The footage I was shown was of the burned corpses of american civilians being dragged to the streets, once they reached a bridge they hanged said corpses ( blood dripping, arms and and feet hacked off ) from the bridge on display while they were chanting "*Iraqi town name* will be the grave of americans".

My point was that this footage was aired only to shock and quite frankly I am disturbed by our media's choice to move towards becomming the best produced splatter movie around.

[Ballast]

On an unrelated note, the American contractors who were murdered were mercenaries working for Blackwater. You have to wonder how thinly stretched our manpower is over there right now if the government is paying a premium to hire outside guns.

As I understand it, Blackwater Security generally provides small arms and small-team combat training to SWAT and other law enforcement special operations units in the US. I have read that they also provide the same service for the Navy's SEAL teams. (Rhetorical question: How good do you have to be to train the SEALs?) I think it unlikely that the US has hired Blackwater as mercenaries, but rather as trainers for the Iraqi police forces. Quite a different thing, really.

[Alrindel]

Iraq has no tradition of democracy

Nor did America in any significant way before the revolution.

America and the major European countries were slowly evolving towards what we now think of as "democracy", the French and American revolutions being culminations of a long, self-driven process.  (this book looks interesting, I'm going to ask my local library to get it).  Contemporary Iraq is being told to transform overnight at gunpoint.  Comparing the two is kind of silly.

Don't misunderstand me about Iraq.  I think that its chances are not good, but I certainly believe that every western country should be doing everything in their power to try and help at this point and in the immediate future.  Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in the Bush administration's will to really go the distance for Iraq, just as they already seem to have forgotten about rebuilding Afghanistan.

[Alluvian]

Yes, I agree, fake violence like that in film and TV does desensitize. When I watch a piece of fiction that includes the death of 20 or so extras it means nothing to me because I know they will stand up and wipe the fake blood off after the cameras cut. I understood that from childhood. People need to know death better. They don't need to fear death, they don't need to hate death, they need to understand death and all its implications.

This is BS.  It is not FAKE violence that desensitizes.  It is any violence real or fake.  Violence in the home, and images of violence on television.  If you think fake violence is the only one that desensitizes you should see a theatrical showing of faces of death once and see how many people in 'civilized' countries cheer and laugh in the theatre as people are dying for real on the screen.  I went to one showing of this and was frankly more disturbed by the audience than the images, as disturbing as those were...

Just look at the people in Iraq.  There was a fucking 10 year old boy who collapsed the skull of one of the corpses by standing on it's head while his father watched.  Do you think that boy was desensitized to this by watching scooby doo and the terminator or REAL death and violence.  When you see enough death you LOSE sensitivity, not gain it.

[ArtificialKid]

Iraq has never attacked the United States.
But I take your meaning, and yes I know war will always exist, but we don't need to initiate it.  If we are attacked we should defend ourselves.

Careful with those absolutes.  By your definition then we unjustly attacked Germany, and should have let them roll over England because they never attacked the U.S.  Also I have to assume you'd have advocated standing by as 800,000 Tutsis were killed in Rwanda.  There clearly are actions short of direct attacks that deserve military intervention (like genocide), but in your opinion Iraq's actions did not warrant this.  How would you have handled Iraq were you in charge?  Afghanistan?

[daveNYC]

If you're talking WWII didn't we declare war on Japan, and then Germany and Italy declared war on us?  Or were you talking about the lend lease actions?

And please don't bring any of the many genocides that we have stood by and watch happen into the discussion.  I would have sent troops into Rwanda and the Yugoslavia fiasco.  I also want to send forces into Sudan.  The problem is that no country in the world seems to give a shit unless its interests are directly threatened.  Nobody considers piles of corpses to be something worth doing anything about.

Bah, a bit of a rant, but it just burns me up whenever I see some diplofuck standing on a mass grave making tsk tsk noises.  Everyone knows about it, and no one cares to do anything about it.

[HaemishM]

Let's look at the Iraqi situation in the filter of the American Revolution.

The way Iraq is moving towards democracy would be similar to the American Revolution except that instead of the Americans revolting from within against British rule, the French attacked the Americans because of the French and Indian War. Apparently these damn Americans came into French Canada and took some land, so the French are now striking back. At the end of it all, the French decide to institute democracy based on electorates they appoint, with proportional representation as decided and drawn up by the French.

Not quite the same thing, but close.

Now, as for Iraq, how in the fuck does anyone think they are going to have representative democracy without US forces overseeing it? How well democracy is fostered in Iraq is going to be directly proportional to how long our troops stay there to oversee it. Think about it.

You already have fuckers like Al-Sistani, AN IRANIAN CLERIC, telling members of the Governing Council when to jump and how high to do it. How can he do this? Easy, he has a virtual army of people who will jump at the snap of his fingers, all of whom are armed, and all of whom will do so because they think he speaks with the word of God. They think he has the power of the salvation of their soul in his words. And he isn't the only one.

Saddam ruled through fear, and bilked the populace of billions of dollars. BUT, and this is the important part, "the trains were on time." For the average Iraqi before the first Gulf War, Iraq was a center of learning, a lawful place with a good economy, and a huge amount of religious tolerance. There was none of the stoning of women for not wearing a Hijab shit that you see in Saudi Arabia or Egypt. But, behind all that, he was pulling people off the streets, torturing and killing them simply for looking the wrong way.

It is, IMO, our duty to return that country to a state where the streets are safe, most minorities feel moderately well-represented, and religious whackjobs aren't getting women killed simply because they aren't wearing the right shawl. Why? Because we blew shit up there.

Now, as soon as we can get our own country reasonably like the situation I've described, maybe we can start working on that Iraqi thing.

[Paelos]

It is, IMO, our duty to return that country to a state where the streets are safe, most minorities feel moderately well-represented, and religious whackjobs aren't getting women killed simply because they aren't wearing the right shawl. Why? Because we blew shit up there.

Now, as soon as we can get our own country reasonably like the situation I've described, maybe we can start working on that Iraqi thing.

No offense here Haemish, but I think our country is as close to these ideals as we can truly get. Streets in America could be safer, but I think that most people feel safe enough in the daytime to go walking through the majority of the city they live in. Having that compared to places where you don't go outside to get in the way of gunfire, we are doing pretty well.

As far as people killing people over religion, despite our intolerances individually, we do have a wealth of freedom and communication that others don't have. And, we've made it a point to severely punish those who commit crimes purely on hatred for another group of people.

Finally, the minority thing. I have a sticking point with this one especially. Minorities are well-represented in America, and in many cases, perhaps too much so. They seem to forget that they are the minority sometimes and try and throw weight around regardless. In Atlanta, the majority of the city is minority, and they control the majority of the city politics. But they still bitch, they still blame whitey, and they still are not satisfied with the rights and priviledges they have. Often I wonder if they would only be happy when white people are the ones in chains. If you think I'm talking out of my ass here, I could only wish I was.

Everything becomes a racial issue if a black person is involved. Fire a black superintendent, its because he was black. Fire a black sheriff, it was racially motivated. Redistrict lines, well that was to keep the black vote from counting. Nevermind that the superintendent was on the take, the sheriff was promoted over four better qualified white guys to get the job, and that the county in question is majority white anyway. These are all stories from the Atlanta news within the last 6 months. It's a kneejerk reaction, and its the first bullet out of the gun. I tend to think that as far as minorities are concerned, they will never be happy, but we are doing a damn good job for them now.

[HaemishM]

Would this help?

<sarcasm>Now, as soon as we can get our own country reasonably like the situation I've described, maybe we can start working on that Iraqi thing.</sarcasm>

It's a dangerous game
That comedy plays
Sometimes it tells you the truth
sometimes it delays it

-- Elvis Costello

My point was, our house is not in order, yet we have no problem telling others how to get their own house in order.

[Paelos]

And my point was, our house is in order, and compared to the countries we are in right now, we are a shining beacon of light on a hill.

Joke or not you got my point.

[Mesozoic]

Show it, I say.  Lets not sanitize war through omission.  War sucks, and people need to understand that.

[Tebonas]

Compared to those countries almost everything is a beaon of light on the hill. Way to tone down your expectations.

[Paelos]

By all means start naming countries that provide for Haemish's list better, although I must point out that before you start rattling off European nations, remember to name a few that have a large racial diversity and economic seperation tied to race so we can compare apples to apples.

[Tebonas]

Sorry, don't believe in "large country is better for the people", don't believe in "Racial diversity at all costs (even when you have to rape some of the tribes and put them under control of their direct enemies)", and surely I dont think economic seperation tied to race is something good. Its more akin to what I associate with racism.

If you mean that in the USA racial diversity works better than in other countries where that racial diversity leads to constant fighting, then I agree with you. But the reason for that is that almost none of those people were native to the USA with a tradition of warfare and abuse of control against each other.

[Nosartur]

I think what  Paelos is saying name countries that have a large multi-ethnic, multi-ligual society where one group controls most of the wealth that are better places to live than America.  It is easy to find countries with reletavely small populations made up off one ethnicity and religon that are "good" places to live.  However when you start mixing relegions, ethnicities, nationalities, and all the other baggage that humans have together you invariably get conflict.  That conflict in America is largely regulated to verbal debate although debate is elevating the screaming that goes on to a higher level than it should be.  Now there are instances when people are victimized because of their ethnicity by those outside of it but most those cases are prosecuted and the perpetrators sent to jail.  In most other places in the world that have even a small percentage of the above combinations it is usually ends up with one group actively killing the other just because.

I can count on one hand places that I would live if I had to leave the US.  The UK and the  Philippines are the only ones of those that have some sort of real racial/ethnic diversity.  Both of which are much narrower than diversity in America.  Singapore is very small and the diversity there is limited to Channel Chinese, Malay, Indian, and a small Muslim population so doesn't count.  Japan has almost no diversity especially outside of the major cities.  Ireland is along those same lines last time I was there although that might have changed in the ten years since.

Edit for spelling>