Siege of Mirkwood

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm not even sure how you can read it as raids.  It's 30-40 minute instances that can be run in groups of 1, 3, 6 or 12.  How is that raiding?

Are you suggesting that 3, 6, and 12 man raids don't exist in LotRO?

I define a raid as an complex instanced fight that requires multiple players to complete. Skirmishes are raids with the option to use NPCs to replace some players.

How are you defining "raid?"

12+ players (thies days), multi-hour encounters that usually requires systems like raid locks or keys and is an optional chink of content not required for leveling up (or storyline in this case) and is subject to its own rule mechanics, such as radiance or whatever is the Wow equivalent.

Skirmishes sound more akin to warhammers scenarios, with an npc mercenary.

[Ard]

MBW more or less explained my stance on it.  Anything that can be done in a half hour with less than a full group isn't a raid, in my opinion.  That's just playing the game as normal.  Anything that requires an absurd number of people and/or an obscene time commitment, that's a raid.

[Yegolev]

Here's my definition of a raid: an encounter/event that requires more than one full group.

[Mrbloodworth]

Not sure if you guys have seen this movie.

[Stormwaltz]

MBW, your definition has great merit. I concede the point.

But I'm still not as enthused as I was for MoM's content additions. :P

More info over at Massively, via PAX.

Intriguing Bit:

What this feature ultimately does is make a 12-man raid feel more like a 24-man in practice, since everyone can have one of these soldiers running around. It's obvious that this has been done to give the game a very epic feel, as many of the battles were in fact quite gigantic in size. Turbine is calling this a foundation for their Epic Battle System, which was something Jeffrey Steefel was keen to add a note on by mentioning that this system would be great for a battle where players controlled "both sides" of the action.

[tazelbain]

Skirmishes sound more akin to warhammers scenarios, with an npc mercenary.

Well if they were actually adding real PvP, this expansion would be exciting.

[Yegolev]

I'm thinking Ettenmoors is left to wither, some unsightly appendix on the game much like the Chicken Quests.  Today, I give up my hope of PvM being improved.

[Ard]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!  The chickens of middle earth are the real heroes in the war of the ring.  Without them, Frodo wouldn't have had dinner in Rivendell.

[Mrbloodworth]

Skirmishes sound more akin to warhammers scenarios, with an npc mercenary.

Well if they were actually adding real PvP, this expansion would be exciting.

Well, I assume you can see how a good portion of the features in this expansion is laying the ground work for things like Helmsdeep, something i suspect will be PvMP. As we get closer to Mordor, I fully believe we will see the monsters become more of a fleshed out advancement line like that of the player characters.

As for "Real PvP", your going to have to define that one, because PvMP is real Pvp. It just may not be what you see in other titles.

[Tarami]

I think "adding" was the operative word there. As far as they've told us yet, they aren't adding ANY PvP.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think "adding" was the operative word there. As far as they've told us yet, they aren't adding ANY PvP.

Still not sure what makes PvMP not PvP.

[Nyght]

Well, I assume you can see how a good portion of the features in this expansion is laying the ground work for things like Helmsdeep, something i suspect will be PvMP. As we get closer to Mordor, I fully believe we will see the monsters become more of a fleshed out advancement line like that of the player characters.

As for "Real PvP", your going to have to define that one, because PvMP is real Pvp. It just may not be what you see in other titles.

I have picked up in LotRO again and with the talk of the expansion I began to ponder really large battles like Helms Deep. How the hell are they going to do that besides cut scenes? Ideas?

[tazelbain]

Still not sure what makes PvMP not PvP.

PvMP could be PvP, but currently it is not.  Too be real PvP there has to be some sort competition between players.  PvM is destiny point farming.  There is no competition.  EvE's economy is more PvP than PvMP.

PvM has some other be big flaws:
The two sides are mechanically unbalanced.  Freeps need to be canned classes like Monsters or Creeps need to be re-skinned PCs.
The two sides will have a population imbalance because people always identify more with Freeps.  Both the lore and structure of the game promote this.
No commitment from devs aggravates the first two issues.  Funny how this a self-fulling prophecy.  Dev pushes out shitty PvP.  Since no one wants to play their shitty PvP, Devs write it off because "players hate pvp."

[Mrbloodworth]

Still not sure what makes PvMP not PvP.

PvMP could be PvP, but currently it is not.  Too be real PvP there has to be some sort competition between players.  PvM is destiny point farming.  There is no competition.  EvE's economy is more PvP than PvMP.

PvM has some other be big flaws:
The two sides are mechanically unbalanced.  Freeps need to be canned classes like Monsters or Creeps need to be re-skinned PCs.
The two sides will have a population imbalance because people always identify more with Freeps.  Both the lore and structure of the game promote this.
No commitment from devs aggravates the first two issues.  Funny how this a self-fulling prophecy.  Dev pushes out shitty PvP.  Since no one wants to play their shitty PvP, Devs write it off because "players hate pvp."

I'm just going to have to disagree completely.

[tazelbain]

Since you don't want to argue that how about we argue this:

Well, I assume you can see how a good portion of the features in this expansion is laying the ground work for things like Helmsdeep, something i suspect will be PvMP. As we get closer to Mordor, I fully believe we will see the monsters become more of a fleshed out advancement line like that of the player characters.

How do more PvE "lay the ground work" for PvP?  LotRO PvP ship sank.  This "we plan have some badass PvP in LotRO, trust us" is just a facade convince players who want PvP to hold on to their accounts just a bit longer.  Call me crazy but the answer to PvP is either fix what they have or come up with something new.  Designing PvP takes practice, trial and error, and commitment and they sure as hell ain't going to figure it out with more PvE.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mostly because I believe the main reason that PvP was not really in LOTRO, at least other than lore reasons, was because they started with the western part of the continent and are following in the shadow of the fellowships journey.. That and turbine knows that adding PvP is like making two games. They have done really well with the first half. And we are getting closer to the eastern portion of the map, meaning a good deal more places that the army's of Mordor exist, and "level".  There is a large dose of wishful thinking on my part sure.

[Yegolev]

I don't know about DP farming making PvM not real PvP, but my definition is just more relaxed, I think.  True, DP is not a finite resource and is not attached to territory or anything, but players are fighting other player even if poorly.

The trouble I have with these laying-the-groundwork game elements is, as I mentioned, just like the Chicken Quests: in the end they are prototypes for a Carrot and I can't expect the implementation to be overhauled in the face of better information.  The fact that I find the chicken runs to be very frustrating is only part of the issue, most of it is that I see Turbine implementing fancy gameplay and then abandoning it.  Ettenmoors is just a grown-up chicken-session set and the "rebalancing" done to it after Moria was late and half-ass.

Consequently, playing a monster is for masochists.  The main route to get DP for me, since I'm rather more casual than most MP participants, is by leveling PvE characters.  I think the DP farming was supposed to work the other way: you run a monster to farm DP which you can use for short-term buffs on your freeps during normal play... or something.  There are half a dozen things I could think of off the top of my head that they could give the MP side to help offset the power difference, but other than the basic level and power boosts (and those were implemented very late, obviously designed and implemented entirely post-MoM rollout) I have not seen any indication that Turbine cares to keep PvM interesting.

[Mrbloodworth]

Chicken play was the ground work, and was expanded for a great many things, troll play, ranger play, even the reenactment of the wakening of the balrog. It was never abandoned.

[Yegolev]

Right, I probably stated that poorly.  Chicken Sessions are the prototype for other things, like troll play.  The chicken runs themselves are what I meant.  I predict Ettenmoors PvM is going to lie dormant, much as the chicken quests do, while better iterations are brought forth in the East.  Furthermore, whatever thing gets rolled out in Mirkwood is likely to enter stasis once the expansion bugfix period ends... because as mentioned, they have to look forward to the larger battles later on and won't spend a lot of effort on existing content.

Then again, the very-welcome old-world dungeon/starter area revamps could mean that I'm completely wrong and things might be tweaked or more-largely improved.  I have been sort of watching my wife level an elf warden through the new Ered Luin and I like what I see.  Could be that I'm just leveling too fast.

[Mrbloodworth]

I wonder if the chicken play was also part of the bree-land revamping. I haven't tried.

Interesting, unrelated to chickens developer quote:

Actually, one of the neat things about 'Siege of Mirkwood' is that the Epic makes use of skirmishes, so you can adjust the difficulty of some of the instances based on what challenge you'd say you're up for. A happy medium, hopefully.

MoL

A random fan video that kinda well done. Just beauty shots of the game world. (Not mirkwood)

[Yegolev]

Good question, I guess.  Let me know, I couldn't seem to complete the first run.

[Cheddar]

Guys, I need you to stop talking about this.  I am trying to get into D&D online.  Thanks!

[Stormwaltz]

I have picked up in LotRO again and with the talk of the expansion I began to ponder really large battles like Helms Deep. How the hell are they going to do that besides cut scenes?

This is related to what Bloodworth and Tazelbain are arguing about. As I quoted upthread from Massively regards the Skirmish System:

Turbine is calling this a foundation for their Epic Battle System, which was something Jeffrey Steefel was keen to add a note on by mentioning that this system would be great for a battle where players controlled "both sides" of the action.

As for Helm's Deep specifically, I doubt we'll see it. Thus far they haven't directly shown events from the books. We've traveled parallel to or behind the Fellowship.

[Mrbloodworth]

I have picked up in LotRO again and with the talk of the expansion I began to ponder really large battles like Helms Deep. How the hell are they going to do that besides cut scenes?

This is related to what Bloodworth and Tazelbain are arguing about. As I quoted upthread from Massively regards the Skirmish System (emphasis mine):

Turbine is calling this a foundation for their Epic Battle System, which was something Jeffrey Steefel was keen to add a note on by mentioning that this system would be great for a battle where players controlled "both sides" of the action.

As for Helm's Deep specifically, I doubt we'll see it. Thus far they haven't directly shown events from the books. We've traveled parallel to or behind the Fellowship.

That's true, but they have created encounters that are somewhat a kin to what the fellowship went through. Such as the watcher.

[Tarami]

Helm's Deep could certainly be a "skirmish session play". I think, if the engine can handle it when we get to that point, Turbine isn't going to throw away that marketing opportunity and find some way of making it work.

[Mrbloodworth]

So, let's take a quick and dirty look at what a player's 20 bucks gets them:

    * Level cap raised to 65.
    * New skills, titles, deeds and traits.
    * Raised level of legendary items.
    * Several new instances.
    * Fourth crafting runic slot on legendary items for master crafters.
    * New Skirmish system. (read below for more)
    * Updated horse mechanics. (read below for more)
    * Mirkwood zone, a dark and ominious forest unlike any other seen thus far, with Dol Guldur looming in the distance.
    * Whole new reputation faction for the Elves of Mirkwood.
    * Dol Guldur, the place where Sauron was a Necromancer 'back in the day' and Gollum was tortured, as a huge vertical instance. After battling their way up this Moria-tech built behemoth of a fortress, players eventually fight a Nazgul placed there by Sauron, who's riding his felbeast.


Skirmishes

Turbine's goal was to take the concept of their story-based instances and improve their replay value. So these are more accessible randomized, repeatable and customizable instances for you and your friends with the same level of storytelling quality as any other LotRO instance.

Players can create a Skirmish directly from the user interface, invite their friends and all be in it almost immediately. Then, when it's over, the game will put everyone back where they were before. Upon creating your Skirmish you can choose its level, the degree of difficulty such as easy, medium or hard and also your party size of either three, six or 12. The game will then create an experience that's proper for the settings you give it.

What we found particularly cool was that each player can bring their own fully customizable soldier into a Skirmish. You can choose their role, which are fairly obvious analogs to classes and select their appearance just as if you were making a new character for yourself. They even have skills and ranks that you can improve as you use them in battle. Jeffrey was keen to point out that you don't have control of your soldier in battle, because Turbine felt it was just too much stuff to be doing at once. Instead, each battle you equip them with traits based on how you want them to act. We think it's a good decision, especially for the pet class players.

What this feature ultimately does is make a 12-man raid feel more like a 24-man in practice, since everyone can have one of these soldiers running around. It's obvious that this has been done to give the game a very epic feel, as many of the battles were in fact quite gigantic in size. Turbine is calling this a foundation for their Epic Battle System, which was something Jeffrey Steefel was keen to add a note on by mentioning that this system would be great for a battle where players controlled "both sides" of the action.

These all happen in areas that should be familiar to any LotRO player. Places like Bree, Tuckberry and Weathertop -- except that since the War of the Rings is beginning, there's something new going on. A couple examples given to us were scourge of the Shire-like event happening at Tuckburrow, or an attack at Bree where people have been locked in the Prancing Pony with the invaders outside ready to set it on fire. Plus, every Skirmish has nine randomizable alternate objectives. Basically, Turbine is doing everything they can to make these just as fun on the hundredth time as they are on the first.

Loot drops and Skirmish Points will probably help extend the replay value. Those points can be spent on various rewards ranging from ways to improve your soldier buddy to actually getting meaningful rewards typically gained elsewhere in the game. Jeffrey did point out that these rewards are meant to compliment, not supplant, the ones already in place throughout the other activities in LotRO.

There are limitations to how often you can do some of them, because Turbine doesn't want them to become too grindy. They don't want it to become so involving that people stop playing the rest of the game. However, we will point out that the game tracks all of your accomplishments in Skirmishes and puts it all in a big in-game window and publishes it into leaderboards at MyLotRO just so you can show everyone how awesome you are -- we can't imagine that those limitations aren't going to be too restrictive.

Updated mount functionality

The first time you summon your horse after getting Siege of Mirkwood, the game will prompt you to turn it into a skill. No longer will mounts take up inventory space, which tells us that Turbine is planning for mounts to become much more plentiful and central to LotRO in the future.


"If this isn't Turbine hinting at their next expansion's setting then they've got a pretty cruel sense of humor"

Even more importantly, mounts are being made more functional. No longer will they simply move players around the game world quickly. With Siege of Mirkwood you can talk to an NPC on your mount, buy stuff from a vendor, cross land block boundaries, enter large spaces on horse without dismounting, emote on your horse -- you can even name your horse. If this isn't Turbine hinting at their next expansion's setting then they've got a pretty cruel sense of humor.

Odds and ends

Shared account storage will allow players to move items between characters of any level on the same server. We were told that there are some limitations to what a player can put into storage in order to avoid a "mulefest" which sounded like a pretty awesome name for a band, to us at least. We were also told that in the future players who've filled up their storage may have an opportunity to earn more space.

Combat has gotten another upgrade as well, and according to Jeffrey one of the largest updates to the system that Turbine has ever done. The changes are being made at a base level, so nothing changed in what a player does in any given battle. Essentially their whole effort was to make combat feel much snappier, and the biggest change is that auto-attack is now completely interruptable by skills. Other adjustments have been made to the timing of animations, but we were assured these changes would only alter the feel of the combat and not the result. If you're still worried or confused on the topic, Jeffrey informed us that a dev diary is coming out about this very topic, so that should clear the air.

As we said in our post, the expansion is coming this Fall for 20 bucks as a digital expansion. For everything we just discussed above, that seems rather like a fair price to us.

Linky

[Yegolev]

I smell horse-levels!

I'm very happy about the shared storage thing but limiting it isn't limiting muling, it just means I won't have to mail things to my mules.

I'm happy about being able to set up a Skirmish from anywhere, so now I can start pestering Turbine to allow us to access the AH from anywhere.  It might be unrealistic but it would make the AH actually worth a shit by encouraging more activity.  Even on Brandywine, you can't find things you want sometimes.

[Stormwaltz]

Linky

There an echo in here? :P

[Draegan]

Has there been any details on how the combat system is going to change? 

[Mrbloodworth]

Linky

There an echo in here? :P

My bad. Not the first time I have done that.

[Redgiant]

I would be shocked if they did not milk Helm's Deep quite a bit, and even though we may not be in the main battle as it were, I expect to see large amounts of fighting with various missions and quests we are supposed to take which put us in and out of the edges of the main battles taking place, if not "in" a few of them as much as they can craft it to happen.

I expect to go on quests which take me amongst 100s of fighting orcs, humans and (depending on movie vs. book) elves in the area while I quest. Also, don't be surprised to see Ents lining the battlefields too.