winter patch: Dominion

[Predator Irl]

I find it amusing how people cry for change in Eve, then before the implementation has taken place, stress about how it is going to change or their perception of how it will change.

[tazelbain]

People want change but no one can agree on what change to enact.  True for healthcare and internet spaceships.

[tmp]

People want change but no one can agree on what change to enact.

I think "change" pretty universally boils down to "i'd like my cheerios fresh and the neighbour's with healthy dose of urine, if possible".

[ajax34i]

I think asking for "change" is like asking for someone to restore balance to the Force.   Not necessarily good for you.

Anyway, re: CCP's changes to the game, it's pretty much "let them do it, and we'll see what's what."

[Gets]

New stars:

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/GPnewstarssisi.jpg

[Endie]

Unless something is being massively boosted in the quality of anomolies or exploration sites, then this is a disaster: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711

Space costs a fortune and the upgrades are trash.

[Fordel]

Do you think this will cause alliances to cutback on how much space they officially claim, or simply just avoid upgrades?

[eldaec]

Both, the ratting/mining upgrades are irrelevant because they are too expensive, but without the logistical upgrades there is no point holding the space - so you'll see both upgrades ignored and space left unclaimed.

I also think ccp will rethink some of this before launch, because jesus fuck this is stupid.

[Pezzle]

Food for thought.  For CVA just maintaining sov that we have now would cost 940M a day.  Add in our locked down region (lets say 30 jammed systems) 750M a day.  A jump bridge network?  250M.  Cyno nav?  Maybe 40M?  Granted I might be off, it is not difficult to imagine 2Billion a day.  More than 50 Billion a month.  Systems are not even upgraded. 

What is the tipping point?  Are these upgrades going to pay for the sov?  At 10% tax your people are going to have to farm up 300M per system just for the sov and hub.  Now, for big alliances with nice space that may be no issue.  Small Alliances?  Just how high is the raw number barrier to entry in 0.0 supposed to be?  How drastic a change are these upgrade levels?  What does CCP mean when they talk about sustaining 100 pilots per system?  I do not believe it.  Rationing?  Equal distribution of wealth?  And that is just the NBSI players.  Since methods of recovery (external taxes) are not being implemented in this expansion those of us so admired for doing things differently cannot count on the 300M per system npc income. 

Sov will not be worth it.  Alliances will hold a few systems with stacked resources or transport.  The rest will be towers for outlying wealth.  Sov claims will drop all over the map.  Ganker gangs will roam around in the spaces between shrunken borders.  Fights will happen over a few resources.  Any sad bastard new groups that claim sov without the same mega alliance setup we have now will be rolled just because. 

How does this encourage growth?  Pretty great that -.01 and -1.0 space cost the same, yea?

Meh.  I am getting some sleep.

[Pennilenko]

It's like they actually want their game to be a second job for the players.

[lac]

Great changes. I hope it succeeds in limiting alliances to a few systems, maybe a constellation. I'm pretty sure that even if it doesn't CCP will tune the system until it does.
The aim here isn't making everybody grind like mad to cover the costs associated with owning a region but to concentrate entire alliances in a few core systems.

[eldaec]

And if they had bothered to provide a way to upgrade the space so you could fit Goonswarm into NOL, that would be fine.

But they didn't.

[Simond]

My prediction: CCP screws this up horrendously.

[eldaec]

There is a dev in the eve-o thread, now claiming that it is all ok, because a fully upgraded system can have anomalies 'pretty much' close to lvl 4 empire income, and can support up to 15 people.

Well that's a weight off my mind...

[Reg]

It's already next to impossible for the average 0.0 resident to support himself with 0.0 activities. I'd hoped this patch would change that but apparently not.

[Amarr HM]

Pezzle, roughly how much does it cost CVA to hold Sov with current mechanics so we can compare?

[Predator Irl]

Great changes. I hope it succeeds in limiting alliances to a few systems, maybe a constellation. I'm pretty sure that even if it doesn't CCP will tune the system until it does.
The aim here isn't making everybody grind like mad to cover the costs associated with owning a region but to concentrate entire alliances in a few core systems.

I think you're right, its all about making smaller spaces more useful. If it works it will be a great change that will see many alliance borders shrink without hitting the pockets too hard. Lets face it, most space in any alliances territory is largely unpopulated and unused purely because the truesec and other factors are completely useless. 

If CCP do this correctly, the players will find it easier working in more compact space and achieving the same results. Do Goons, CVA, Atlas, AAA or anyone else really need to control all that territory? Its not making them stronger when its costing ISK to fuel towers in systems that aren't actually being used. I may change my opinion when Dominion is implemented, but for now I think its a step in the right direction. 

[Endie]

I am hugely disappointed that CCP's response to this is not to boost the value of 0.0 but just to cut the costs a bit:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=33#984

Now we'll just keep holding wide areas of space and only large alliances will be able to take it from each other, as before.

[Simond]

CCP in "Unable to tell arse from elbow" shocker!

[Sir T]

I'm sorry but I really cant see how anyone will be abe to support themselves in 0.0 with these changes. Will they be spawning 300 anomalies per system or something?

[Amarr HM]

Those charges seem a bit steep.

[Simond]

I'm sorry but I really cant see how anyone will be abe to support themselves in 0.0 with these changes. Will they be spawning 300 anomalies per system or something?

Ten or so, when fully upgraded.
Populated with deadspace rats, to boot.

[Endie]

I'm sorry but I really cant see how anyone will be abe to support themselves in 0.0 with these changes. Will they be spawning 300 anomalies per system or something?

Ten or so, when fully upgraded.
Populated with deadspace rats, to boot.

Where did you get that?  All I see is "two extra anomalies per system".  But I know that some devs have been posting with varying degrees of usefulness throughout.  The worst is Stoffer (CCP Soundwave).  I have an account on a temp forum ban now for reporting him to the mods for unconstructive trolling 

[Amarr HM]

I think Chronotis just stated in the Dev blog that the TCU charge will be reduced to 1m per day along with the marker at 5m per day, which works out at 180m per month for base infrastructure.

[Simond]

I'm sorry but I really cant see how anyone will be abe to support themselves in 0.0 with these changes. Will they be spawning 300 anomalies per system or something?

Ten or so, when fully upgraded.
Populated with deadspace rats, to boot.

Where did you get that?  All I see is "two extra anomalies per system".  But I know that some devs have been posting with varying degrees of usefulness throughout.  The worst is Stoffer (CCP Soundwave).  I have an account on a temp forum ban now for reporting him to the mods for unconstructive trolling 

I'm pretty sure that one of Stoffer's replies said that it was two anomalies per level of upgrade/sov. so ten in total. I could, however, be imagining the whole thing. 

I think Chronotis just stated in the Dev blog that the TCU charge will be reduced to 1m per day along with the marker at 5m per day, which works out at 180m per month for base infrastructure.

Great, now all they need to do is actually make the space worth living in. Turning the deadspace rats into belt rats would be a nice starting point but probably not far enough.

[Endie]

I think Chronotis just stated in the Dev blog that the TCU charge will be reduced to 1m per day along with the marker at 5m per day, which works out at 180m per month for base infrastructure.

Yeah I posted some figures in the tax thread.

[Amarr HM]

Aye I just saw that, I reckon the TCU charges should be inline with the system trusec. Something like 1m to 10m for 0.01-1.0.

[Endie]

I initially thought you were spot on there, but with truesec not mattering so much (apparently it won't affect the anomalies and I doubt if it will affect the revised grav sites they're now trailing to quiet people down) I'm less certain.

[Pezzle]

Pezzle, roughly how much does it cost CVA to hold Sov with current mechanics so we can compare?

I do not know the real numbers for sov only right now.  My guess is the cost is less than half of that 50B+ number I listed.  Keep in mind we actually only maintain a bit more than half of Providence ourselves.

[Phildo]

Just to remind myself how terrible they are, I ran two anomalies yesterday.  The first one was a drone site that didn't spawn a single BS and I was able to haul the loot home in a destroyer with half my cargo empty.  The second was a Blood Raider site that spawned a single terrible battleship after four waves of chaff.  I probably would have made more isk off a single decent triple BS spawn.

Still, one thing that people seem to be ignoring is that the 50-100 person figure isn't meant to be simultaneous, It's meant to be all day long.  So if there are ten anomalies plus various other sites, let's say a system can handle 15 people simultaneously.  Those people all take about 3 hours, and then 15 new people cycle in.  That's much more in line with the figures that CCP are throwing out.

Also, regarding Providence: I get the feeling that CCP were referring to the multiple friendly Alliances holding space in a region instead of the entire area being held by a single entity when the said they were using it as a model.  I don't believe the NRDS had anything to do with it when they were coming up with the system, so the people that are upset about maybe having to lose that are probably wasting their breath.

[Sir T]

I'm sorry but I really cant see how anyone will be abe to support themselves in 0.0 with these changes. Will they be spawning 300 anomalies per system or something?

Ten or so, when fully upgraded.
Populated with deadspace rats, to boot.

Ergh. So they will be continuously spawning anomalies with a max of 10 in system at one time? Assuming people actually go out and clear them continuously? And they don't even give them belt rats to boot?

I can see people still fighting over belts by preference with that bullshit.

[IainC]

People are throwing around comparisons to the NGE in both the Eve-O thread and the GF one. It will be interesting to see how things change in Monday's dev blog.

[Fordel]

Why don't they just let Alliances buy mission agents for their stations or whatever?

[Sir T]

RP reasons. The "agents" are from the corp that owns the station and you are doing missions for that corp. That's why when The blood raiders came to delve they did BOB the "disservice" of converting those systems to NPC space, the rotters.

[Endie]

RP reasons. The "agents" are from the corp that owns the station and you are doing missions for that corp. That's why when The blood raiders came to delve they did BOB the "disservice" of converting those systems to NPC space, the rotters.

Or, you could read the thread and see that Stoffer says that they want to but can't right now.