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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Warhammer for OS X 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Warhammer for OS X  (Read 8189 times)
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


on: July 30, 2009, 12:18:35 PM

No idea how this became a priority for them when they barely have the engine working on XP/Vista. But there you have it. Warhammer for OS X.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
rattran
Moderator
Posts: 3684

Unreasonable


Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 12:46:55 PM

It's just using cider as a wrapper. So the same half-working engine, with the benefit of Transgaming's half-working wine thingy.
fuser
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1572


Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 01:48:23 PM

Their expanding into new markets, Linux next!  why so serious?
Morfiend
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6009

wants a greif tittle


Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 02:35:13 PM

 awesome, for real
Hayduke
Terracotta Army
Posts: 544


Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 02:36:36 PM

It's just using cider as a wrapper. So the same half-working engine, with the benefit of Transgaming's half-working wine thingy.

Yeah EA has done this with a lot of their games, not too exciting.  At least they didn't go full SOE and open a Mac-only server.
Soulflame
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4413


Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 03:38:21 PM

iWAR?

Meh, got nothin'.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10474


Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 04:15:00 PM

I think I'm excited......
Surlyboi
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9033

eat a bag of dicks


Reply #7 on: July 30, 2009, 04:16:52 PM

Fuck cider. It's the lamest thing a gaming company could do.

Shitty engine? Make it shittier on a Mac by running it through a layer of emulation, so that the
system requirements are almost double what they'd be on a fucking 'doze box.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 04:19:32 PM

Yeah, I guess I'm just surpised. Even though it's minimal dev effort there's still QA/Support and marketing that would need to be done. And really  it probably runs better under bootcamp than it will this way. Odd choice.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10474


Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 04:22:06 PM

there's still QA/Support and marketing that would need to be done

Thankfully Mythic got rid of all those people, so they don't have to worry about that part.
Soulflame
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4413


Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 04:28:33 PM

All QA ever does is find problems and cost money!   awesome, for real
Redgiant
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Posts: 304


Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 05:23:17 PM

What's next, CP/M or RIO?

A FUCKING COMPANY IS AT STEAK
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20209


Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 06:48:17 PM

Fuck cider. It's the lamest thing a gaming company could do.

Shitty engine? Make it shittier on a Mac by running it through a layer of emulation, so that the
system requirements are almost double what they'd be on a fucking 'doze box.
Have you actually played a game on the Mac under Cider or are you just making shit up? I can play the Mac version of CoH which also uses Cider on my old Mac Mini even with it's piece of shit GMA 950 and it works, though not great because the GPU is crap.

The only reason the CPU requirements look so high for WAR on the Mac is because the only single core Intel Core Solo CPU Apple ever used was with a old model of the Mac Mini that also has the GMA 950 GPU which WAR doesn't support. Otherwise the requirements are basically the same as with Vista.
Surlyboi
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Posts: 9033

eat a bag of dicks


Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 08:56:47 PM

No offense Trippy, but you're out of your element on this one. Trust me
when I say that.

And yes, I've played many games in cider and I've had to troubleshoot
even more. Emulation is a shitty substitute for a native client.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20209


Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 09:21:01 PM

And yet you still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54039


WWW
Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 09:54:10 PM

Now, this could be an interesting slapfight.
Phildo
Contributor
Posts: 5078


Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 10:03:53 PM

Agreeing with the people that think this is going to be a trainwreck.  But hey, whatever populates those servers.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20209


Reply #17 on: July 30, 2009, 10:12:30 PM

Well since Surlyboi didn't provide any evidence to support his claims and mine was only based on a single game I tried I went looking for benchmarks which are few and far between. I actually now think he may have *understated* his case but it's hard to know for sure given the lack of benchmarks and inconsistent data I've been able to find so far.

Here's an example of the problem. Here's somebody's benchmark of EVE showing how the Mac version WAYYYY slower when running under Cider:

http://themacgamer.com/tag/ati/page/2/

On the other hand here's somebody else with a far less powerful system getting much better performance in EVE on their Mac by making some config file tweaks:

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1021336

Given the resolution they are running at and GPU on that Mac that's pretty respectable performance but they didn't benchmark EVE running on Windows on that same system so it's unknown what the performance difference under Cider actually is.


Another example: here's somebody saying that BF2142 on the Mac is basically unplayable even with a decent system:

http://osx411.com/full-rundown-of-bf2142-for-the-mac/
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:20:57 PM by Trippy »
columba
Terracotta Army
Posts: 29


Reply #18 on: July 30, 2009, 10:25:16 PM

I wouldn't be surprised that Mythic could make it work even better on a Mac.  The sad performance on vista remains, however.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20209


Reply #19 on: July 30, 2009, 10:29:39 PM

I wouldn't be surprised that Mythic could make it work even better on a Mac.  The sad performance on vista remains, however.
That's not going to happen since they are using Gamebryo instead of their own graphics engine and Gamebryo doesn't have a Mac OS X native version.
columba
Terracotta Army
Posts: 29


Reply #20 on: July 31, 2009, 05:06:34 PM

Wow.  Then it makes it even harder to understand why they spent time on this.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 20209


Reply #21 on: July 31, 2009, 05:21:52 PM

Cause it's a relatively straightforward way for companies to port their games to the Mac. You need to relink the code against the Cider libraries that provide the translation between DirectX and other MS-specific stuff and the OS X libraries/routines and there's presumably a bunch of code cleanup you have to do but that's far far less work than trying to rewrite your graphics engine to use OpenGL instead of DirectX graphics and rewriting all the other DirectX stuff (DirectSound, DirectInput, etc.).

PC game developers that write their own graphics engines and have budgets/profits big enough to support this sort of porting effort do sometimes write Mac OS X native versions of their games but that's rare (see id and Blizzard).
Fordel
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Posts: 8290


Reply #22 on: July 31, 2009, 05:29:20 PM

Blizzard still goes with OpenGL or whatever, no?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Surlyboi
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9033

eat a bag of dicks


Reply #23 on: July 31, 2009, 05:43:04 PM

Blizzard still goes with OpenGL or whatever, no?

Yes, as does Id. I hate Blizz for a lot of shit, but coding for OpenGL instead of taking the easy way out is something I'll always sing their praises for.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #24 on: July 31, 2009, 10:59:22 PM

Performance is not horrible. Not great either though. I installed the Mac client and the windows client on my Macbook Pro (2.6 C2D, x1600, 2G RAM). No I didn't resub, I used the trial tyvm.

The OS X version was subjectively about 20-30% slower at the same settings. Most notably if I had all spell/particle effects turned on it was really severe under the Cider port, not as bad under XP. Both sucked ass compared to my Quad gaming box, but that's to be expected.

It's still a really weird choice to even bother with this. I can't think of a single reason why. They won't get any new subs, any mac players were already using bootcamp and they're not going to market this, so why bother?

EDIT: Subjectively meaning I didn't log or monitor FPS that carefully, but the fps was certainly slower and graphic lag difference was noticeable.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 11:02:13 PM by squirrel »

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10474


Reply #25 on: July 31, 2009, 11:04:08 PM

Doesn't matter.  You're still going to lag down and die/get booted in a big city or fortress raid anyway, so why does anyone care?
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #26 on: July 31, 2009, 11:07:33 PM

Doesn't matter.  You're still going to lag down and die/get booted in a big city or fortress raid anyway, so why does anyone care?

Well - T1 - late T2 are actually fun. If you want to pay for RPG Team Fortress sorta. Agreed in general, just trying to figure out why they said "I know, let's use Cider to make an OS X port! That'll help!"

nm it's Mythic. Who the fuxk knows.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10474


Reply #27 on: July 31, 2009, 11:15:52 PM

I personally think the New Emskrank area is very well done and fun.  If I can play that in OS X and enjoy it then so much the better.
Soln
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4354

the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #28 on: August 01, 2009, 01:23:43 PM

this probably is one of MJ/PB or other's legacies.  Namely, copy everything of Blizz, including cross platform.  It was released before earnings because it was in the works that long.
Fordel
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Posts: 8290


Reply #29 on: August 01, 2009, 02:26:06 PM

Blizzard still goes with OpenGL or whatever, no?

Yes, as does Id. I hate Blizz for a lot of shit, but coding for OpenGL instead of taking the easy way out is something I'll always sing their praises for.


Is OpenGL just harder to use or something? If it can work on both PC's and Mac's, why doesn't everyone do it?



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
tmp
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #30 on: August 01, 2009, 06:29:38 PM

Is OpenGL just harder to use or something? If it can work on both PC's and Mac's, why doesn't everyone do it?
They are similar in terms of effort and complexity, but OpenGL is strictly API for graphics while directX provides also libraries to handle sound, input and such. Since these other things have to be done for game to be complete it makes sense for many to pick one API for all. And since the other platforms are limited in size the incentive to go for more universa, cross-platforml solution is equally small.

There's also the matter of implementation -- both nVidia and ATI take some liberties in how their drivers handle openGL specifications, and both companies like to introduce their own 'extensions' to the basic specification. This means for maximum performance an openGL application may require multiple "render paths" to handle range of abilities provided by hardware. If i understand it right directX has similar issue (cards come with different capabilities and the game code has to adapt, something directX 10 tried to address) ... but it's less severe.
Fordel
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Posts: 8290


Reply #31 on: August 02, 2009, 02:14:54 AM

So to Overly simply it, DirectX is a Television, while OpenGL is just a monitor and I would have to find my own speakers and remote control?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
tmp
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #32 on: August 02, 2009, 05:06:47 AM

That's not a bad way to put it, yah.
jason
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Posts: 85


WWW
Reply #33 on: August 02, 2009, 06:26:23 AM

I can think of one fairly decent reason why they would bother to port Warhammer over to the Mac: Practice.

If they plan on future games being on both platforms, take a small team, get them to work on porting Warhammer over and they can learn a bunch of the problems and pitfalls of how their codebase/engines/etc handle the transition and can help the team making the new games avoid choices that hurt the porting process.
columba
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Posts: 29


Reply #34 on: August 02, 2009, 10:58:25 AM

Agreed.  Even if things go terribly wrong on this experiment, it's only Warhammer at risk.  Low impact.
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