Vaping with eCigarettes

[rattran]

Nicotine is such fun stuff. It's absorbed rapidly through the skin, and the fatal dose is only 40-60mg. So don't spill your liquid on yourself, a 30ml bottle at 24mg/ml could give you a bad day.

[Samwise]

Is there ever a point where you step back, look at the weird shit you have to do just to make it through your day on an even keel, and think "maybe I should find another hobby"?

[Yegolev]

Is there ever a point where you step back, look at the weird shit you have to do just to make it through your day on an even keel, and think "maybe I should find another hobby"?

There sure as fuck is.  Trust me.

[Nerf]

I'm going to be placing a bulk order from www.bestecig.com tonight, if anyone wants to piggyback stuff on my order and get chinese prices without the $20+shipping, let me know what you need.  You can order anything you want for list price on the website, and instead of paying $17.50/.5kilo shipping, you just pay the shipping once it gets here - $5 priority, $2-3 first class.

Some quick prices:

35ml e-liquid: $14.50
BE112/801 atomizers: $6.5 per, 5/$30
BE901 atomizers: $7.25 per, 5/$35
Spare batteries: $9
E-cig starter kit: $30

Just IM me here or get me on steam with what you want, and I'll give ya paypal info.  Ordering tonight my order *should* be here monday, barring any customs issues, but its usually in/out of customs in 10 minutes.

[schild]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/22/ecigarettes.fda/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[Ookii]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/22/ecigarettes.fda/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Everyone is waiting on the full report that names the suppliers of the carts, looks right now like Smoking Everywhere and Njoy. Apparently one of those companies sucks at extracting nicotine, as some bad stuff came with it. I don't think anyone is really saying this stuff is good for you, but it's still a hell of a lot better than analog cigs.

[Kitsune]

Well, that's sort of a no shit, Sherlock moment.  If anyone genuinely thought that sucking nicotine into their lungs was a good and wholesome activity, that person is stupid.  You just have to look at the chewing tobacco users who had horrible mouth cancer to know that it's never going to be a sunshiney-clean drug for children of all ages.  But it's got to be at least better to use the vaporizers than lighting things on fire and sucking on the smoke.

[Nerf]

The FDA has made their position clear from the start, but this report is total bullshit.  There is DG in almost everything, even in USP grade FDA approved products.

From the DG wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol

Because of its adverse effects on humans, diethylene glycol is not allowed for use in food and drugs. The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations allows no more than 0.2% of diethylene glycol in polyethylene glycol when the latter is used as a food additive.

The FDA did not have trouble finding it because they knew that PG food grade has DEG in it and they let people make stuff out of PG food grade for human consumpstion.

I'll dig up some tox reports from e-liquid by independent labs and link them later.  The stuff isn't good for you, but aside from the nicotine, it's not really /bad/ for you.

First off, some info on PG, which makes up 80-95% of your e-liquid, depending on flavoring and brand: http://www.vapersclub.com/pg.html

Toxicity report from Supersmoker JP: http://www.supersmokerjp.com/images/ToxicologylaboratoryTestResultsEnglishtranslatiion.pdf

Toxicity report from Totally-Wicked Eliquid: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/1970-pillbox38s-totally-wicked-e-smoking-liquid-about-hit-uk-20.html

NZ Health study on Ruyan products (original DSE901/801): http://www.healthnz.co.nz/2ndSafetyReport_9Apr08.pdf

[Ookii]

The more I read about this the more I'm getting pissed.  DEG was only found in one of the carts, and only in the liquid.  When they did the smoke test THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY, and the amount in the liquid meets their own regulations.  Meanwhile they approved Chantix which has contributed (confirmed) to at least 50 deaths, what fucking assholes.

It's like that one anti-smoking commercial they played on tv where the girl snuck out of her parent's house at night.  She took the car, and went to a party.  At the party they were drinking out of red cups, and someone offers her a cigarette.  She declines, and the tag line went, "Even if you don't know where your children are they'll make the right decision if you talk to them" or some bullshit.  She was drinking at a party with underage teens!  She also drove there so she had to drive back drunk!

Fucking hypocrites, all of those guys.  They're probably all banging little boys or something.

[MahrinSkel]

Two things: The tobacco industry still has a lot of pull, politically, and this is aimed right at their bottom line, and; The Feds and various states have just jacked up their cigarette taxes, and desperately need that revenue ($50+/carton combined with a critical mass of people using this has led to a major snowballing of popularity).

I'm buying my stuff, plus as much liquid as I can afford, at the beginning of next month.  I can see the handwriting on the wall, if they don't outlaw it (expect to see reports claiming Vaping is being used to do illegal drugs in the open) they'll be taxing the shit out of it.

--Dave

[Furiously]

I still need to find some good juice. I accidentally sent my ecig through the was and it still works good I was amazed. I bought the lowest nicotine content juice when I got mine. And I would probably have got a bit stronger if I did it again. I am overall pretty pleased with the whole setup. Basically it's a tiny fog machine with nicotine.

[Ookii]

So apparently other people on the boards have these, what models do you have?

I have a 510 and a nerf-o-matic 5000.  It's similar to the screwdriver, except nerf makes it.  I also have a usb passthrough 801.

So far I like the nerf-o-matic 5k, but I'm thinking of modding the 510 a bit since it's a little more socially acceptable.

[Strazos]

I don't smoke at all, but this is all really interesting. Good job, Nerf.

I was reading about one of the products awhile ago, called Blu...how is that one?

[Ookii]

Someone explain this, how bad is the stuff they found:

[Strazos]

A lot of that just seems like, "Duh" to me, but I'm neither a doctor nor a chemist.

[MahrinSkel]

Linalool: An alcohol solvent common in perfumes and perfumed products such as soaps and hand creams.  Some people (roughly 5%) will develop allergic skin rashes from contact.

Ethanol: Same stuff you drink, also found in hand sanitizers, perfumes, etc.  Dangerous in high doses and intoxicating in moderate doses, the trace amounts involved here are less than you get from applying cologne or aftershave.

Tetramethylpyrizine: AKA Alkylpyrazine, it's a grouping of chemicals used for food flavoring and artificial scents.  Potentially irritating to soft tissues and mucus membranes, can provoke or intensify underlying respiratory problems.

Methylbutyraldehyde: More scents and flavoring, pretty much the same potential effects.

Methylbutyric Acid: Ditto.

Methylcyclopent (plus alphabet soup): Organic solvent used to make other substances more soluble.  Some forms of this chemical are known to be toxic and/or carcinogenic, but it is considered safe for ingestion in low concentrations.

Butenalydine is a preservative, no known ill effects, trimethylcyclohex is another fragrance, with the same potential effects as the others.

There's nothing there that can kill you in low doses, and I'm pretty sure all or nearly all are already present in cigarettes and bulk tobacco (for rolling or pipes).  If you had an allergic reaction, *and* you already had severe asthma or emphysema, you might die (which is true and then some for smoking tobacco), otherwise it's just going to make you feel raw in the throat and chest, as if you had inhaled pipe or cigar smoke.  Considering the witches brew of chemicals both naturally present and added in tobacco, they got nothing here that represents a significant health risk.

Neither a doctor nor a biochemist, but in only takes a few minutes on Google to see that behind the scary chemical names and frightening hazard graphics, they've got nothing that justifies regulatory intervention.  It's all about the Benjamins, cigarette companies are already seeing their profits get squeezed out and can't really compete with this, and the government actors are afraid of losing tax revenues.  This kind of caught them by surprise, although it's been technically feasible for decades, $50/carton for cigarettes seems to have been the magic number to make people willing to switch over on a large scale.

--Dave

[Furiously]

Yea - if you were smart you would buy a lifetime supply of e-cig atomizers right now. 

The batteries and mixture *CAN* be homemade. I just don't see how they will outlaw them. I mean I could sell a "mini-fog machine" and that would be legal. And I could probably sell a fogjuice with any flavoring myself.

Nerf - how long of a life are you seeing on the atomizers? Can they be cleaned by dipping in alcohol or washed to remove any impurities that build up in them?

[Nerf]

My atomizers have been lasting 2 weeks to a month or more, I only use the best ecig brand, they manufacture them with thicker resistance wires and they seem to hold up better.

They're $30/$35 for 5 if you order from china, and you can get the shipping for free* if you piggyback on my bulk orders.
Same for the liquid, 35ml of 36mg/ml for $14, the price is the same regardless of nicotine content, and PG is dirt cheap.  Like $20-40 a gallon for USP grade.  So buy the strongest avail. and cut it.

Strazos: The blu is pretty shitty, stick to the 801/901/510.

Anyone who wants to order a bunch of stuff from china and not pay the $18 for the first .5kg and $6/.5kg after just let me know and I'll piggyback your stuff on my orders.
*Free shipping means from china to me, you still have to pay the stateside charge, $10 or less even for big orders.

[MahrinSkel]

What can you tell me about the 201?  Everything I'm finding says it's an improved 801, with a more efficient cartridge design, more durable atomizer, and better airflow.  But there's no US company selling them, only a couple in the UK and the manufacturer themselves (and they only sell the pure white version).  I'm actually planning on getting their 401 mini-cig (same size as a traditional cigarette) for my regular use, but I am considering the 201 as the starting point for an attempt to make a homebrew ePipe that doesn't cost $40 to replace the atomizer but still looks like a real pipe.  I figure a CR2 with integrated thermal protection circuits and a voltage regulator should be able to drive it, and I might even manage to fit two into the right pipe.

--Dave

[Nerf]

I don't have any experience with the 401 or 201, the 801 and 901 both work extremely well, and theres a reason they're so popular.  There aren't any cr2s with integrated protection though, you'll have to step it up to the slightly larger rcr123, Tenergy does make a 3v version, but if you're only using one you want the 3.6v.  You want to run your ecig at somewhere between 4 and 8 volts, so see what the peak charge on the batteries you want to use is.  Most of the li-ions peak at 4.2.

The other downside of not using an 801 or 901 is availability of parts and whatnot, especially for homebrew.  Right now I'm the only supplier (that sells to the public) for the battery connectors for the DIY crowd.  If you go outside of the connectors I've got available you're ripping apart batteries or trying to find shit thats threaded the same way.  That being said, alot of the penstyles are threaded the same.  Theres a chance the 201 will thread onto the 801 connector, but I haven't personally tried it.

[Ookii]

I just tried the tea bag mod for carts and it's working well so far.  Basically you buy those nifty lipton pyramid teabags, cut them up and stick them inside the cart.  So far, very good!  For 2.99 for a box (plus tea!), it's worth a shot.  The only thing better is large cell reticulated foam (apparently), but I'm not stopping by a pet store today.

I really wouldn't go for the 401, I would go straight for the 510.  I believe they're about the same size, and the 510 is in the trifecta of acceptable vapes (801, 901, and 510).  Get one with a manual button on the side, even better yet a titan battery, and I'm sure you'll like it a lot better.

[Nerf]

Yeah, the 510 and 401 connectors are the same but the inverse of eachother.  The 510 atomizer has the 401 connector threads.

[MahrinSkel]

I finally found the solution to my problem of "how can I fit enough battery into a pipe bowel?"  The insanely small 10180 Lithium Cell.  10mm wide, 18mm high.  Combine a couple of those with two of this voltage protection PCB designed to go underneath the end cap of a larger battery, use heat shrink tubing to keep everything put, and you wind up with a 3.7V or 7.4V battery pack that measures 18mm X 20mm X 10mm (actually probably more like 14mm, with PCB's on each side), which shouldn't be hard at all to fit into a fair variety of pipes.

Then I just need a cover for the bowl with a switch, that can be removed fairly easily, and the battery fittings to attach an atomizer to the stem.  I found out that the 201 atomizer can connect to an 801 battery, but won't draw correctly unless you drill a hole through the fitting (something you couldn't actually do with an 801 battery, but could for this).

--Dave

[MahrinSkel]

Update: I decided to take the plunge this last Friday, and being an immediate-gratification type, I decided that rather than wait for somebody to ship me the stuff, I would just take a road-trip up to Dallas and get it all from Nerf.  I actually got to watch him put the whole thing together, which gave me most, if not all of the pointers I needed for my ePipe project.

Overall: Haven't smoked a cigarette since 3pm Saturday, haven't missed it.  Having a little bit of a learning curve on remembering how much to use it, since my patterns are all off (haven't been able to smoke inside in years).  Definitely don't mind not having to go out in the 105 degree heat to smoke.  I used one battery until this morning (so 3-4 days of using it for 2-4 hours a day), plus using the USB passthrough whenever I was at home.  It hadn't actually stopped working, it was just not making nearly as much vapor.

Nitpicks: The USB passthrough came apart on me (to be fair, I was changing the cartridge with the atomizer attached to the passthrough, something Nerf said not to do).  The switch came loose as well.  I have it put back together, but superglue just doesn't have the mechanical strength or flexibility for this kind of situation, I'd recommend using epoxy or hot glue.  Oh, and if you have Nerf make you one, ask for the larger switch on the USB, the little one will start chafing your thumb after a while.

Even after just a few days, my lungs are starting to clear, and my wife is glad I don't smell like an ashtray.  There's no way I'm going back to cigarettes.  I've figured out how I'm going to make my ePipe, I should be able to fit a CR123 (16340 size) into a fair variety of pipes (means I can use protected batteries instead of having to find room to attach a circuit board, and it will have nearly the capacity of the 14500 AAA sized ones Nerf is using).  I think that instead of directly mounting an eCig battery fitting to the stem end, I'm going to use an RCA connector and have adapters from RCA to the battery fittings.  I'm trying to figure out a way to meld an 801 atomizer with an ePipe/eCigar cartridge, as that would give twice the liquid capacity.

Speaking of which: 901 cartridge/atomizers suck.  Not only is the cartridge much smaller (requiring far more frequent refilling), but drops of liquid wind up getting sucked back into the mouthpiece and your mouth, which is really unpleasant.

Oh, and if you can find (nudge, nudge) a supplier of eLiquid that has their own made up from pure Propylene Glycol and Nicotine, do it.  The chinese fluid almost everyone is reselling has something in it that builds up a residue in the atomizer, leading to a nasty taste that's a pain to clean out (you basically boil the atomizer for a few minutes), the pure stuff does not.

Anyway, Nerf's battery pack itself works wonderfully.  Only suggestions I would make would be including a battery charger, and some kind of cutoff switch so I can carry it in a pocket without worrying about the button getting held down.  Might be possible to mount a mini-B USB connector to allow both re-charging and eliminate the need for a separate USB passthrough.

--Dave

[Slayerik]

Well Dave, you got me excited to try this out. Ole Nerf and I came up with a Eve related trade and he's sending me some gear. What stuff am i gettin' Nerf? :)

Being a single guy, I'm constantly concerned about having smoke on my breath, and one of my chicks is a non-smoker.

[Nerf]

Slay, you'll be getting a nerf-o-matic 5k, a usb passthru, a handful of liquid, a (new design, woo!) mini battery operated ecig, some batteries, and a charger.  Maybe some other goodies, I've got some sekret stuff in the works that I don't want to post here because I know this thread is being watched.

Dave, sorry to hear about the usb passthru, how did it come apart exactly? I haven't heard of that happening yet to anyone else and if its something I can fix in my design I most definitely will.  The superglue on switches was a bit of a test, i'm a little bummed to hear it didn't hold up.  I'll definitely go back to hotglue.

[Draegan]

I've successfully quit smoking for about 4 months now.  And before that it was only a pack a week.  Used to be a 1 pack a day guy.

I wish this shit was around 4-5 years ago, or at least I wish I knew about it.

Nice shit you got there Nerf.

[Nerf]

Thanks Draegan, I had quit for 5 months before I found e-cigs.  I'd never tell you to pick it up because if you've kicked the habit you're good, but if you find yourself with a cigarette in your hand, give me a call.  This shit covers the oral fixation and you can tweak your nicotine level to your choosing (or zero).  What I missed was the actual feeling of smoking, feeling it in my chest, I quit for the girlfriend (the smell), and because I got sick of being winded walking to the mailbox.

[Merusk]

Be careful with these, folks, like all goods made in China.  I certainly wouldn't want to be huffing on them, but  I seem to recall normal cigs have diethylene glycol in their smoke, too.  It certainly sounded familiar for some reason.

Also pick up what you can now,  as an  import ban is in place.  No ban yet on vendors selling what they have in stock right now.  Go government!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111578997

[Ookii]

August 17th is the magic date for SmokingEverywhere vs FDA.

[Nerf]

Be careful with these, folks, like all goods made in China.  I certainly wouldn't want to be huffing on them, but  I seem to recall normal cigs have diethylene glycol in their smoke, too.  It certainly sounded familiar for some reason.

Also pick up what you can now,  as an  import ban is in place.  No ban yet on vendors selling what they have in stock right now.  Go government!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111578997

Actually, a couple vendors had their large ($20-30k) shipments released from customs by the FDA with a stern warning that if they sell any of it they will be met with stiff fines and penalties.  That being said, customs is a joke, small orders will always get through, and the tox report for the bestecig.com liquid is listed on page 2 I think, if anyone wants the whole 7 page thing I'll put it up.

[MahrinSkel]

Dave, sorry to hear about the usb passthru, how did it come apart exactly? I haven't heard of that happening yet to anyone else and if its something I can fix in my design I most definitely will.  The superglue on switches was a bit of a test, i'm a little bummed to hear it didn't hold up.  I'll definitely go back to hotglue.

The superglue just cracked and came apart on both the fitting and the switch, in separate incidents (the fitting because I was changing the cartridge, the switch in normal use).  I've got it kludged back together with wood glue and surgical tape.  Hotglue should handle it fine, it's CA's complete lack of flexibility that is the problem.

--Dave

[Nerf]

I'll actually be in austin friday night, if I have time I'll whip up a new passthru with a big button in the morning and trade ya, otherwise PM me your address and I'll get a new one sent off.

[Broughden]

Try this for the latter.

What the heck is that stuff? Years ago when I was still smoking several dealers all moved over to something that kinda looked like buds and my friends all thought it was buds, but I knew it wasn't. Pretty sure it was something like they're selling, which would make it ironic (legal) and tragic (not stoning).

I dont think anyone answered Sky's question and Ive got to admit Im pretty curious as well. What is that stuff they are trying to pass off as weed?

[Ookii]

Try this for the latter.

What the heck is that stuff? Years ago when I was still smoking several dealers all moved over to something that kinda looked like buds and my friends all thought it was buds, but I knew it wasn't. Pretty sure it was something like they're selling, which would make it ironic (legal) and tragic (not stoning).

I dont think anyone answered Sky's question and Ive got to admit Im pretty curious as well. What is that stuff they are trying to pass off as weed?

They invaded our perfect ecig thread with they're non ecig talk.  Get that stuff outta here.