Television Challenge

[dusematic]

120 hz looks weird.  I've heard people say that's how TV was meant to look, and we just haven't been able to see it properly before now.  I just kind of think, well if that's true, how come everything looks like a soap opera?

It's hard to explain if you haven't seen it.  But you immediately think "soap opera" when watching anything on 120hz.  I was watching House and it looked like Days of Our Lives.  It might be trippy to watch an actual soap opera on 120hz.  Anyway, watching 120hz for more than an hour gives me a headache.

[Polysorbate80]

Mostly they go with the frame interpolation, which gets even wierder when you're converting 24 frame movies--you've suddenly got 4 extra frames to deal with.  240hz would be up to 9 additional frames.

It gets more complicated than that. If you have something that can do inverse telecine (e.g. your Blu-ray player or the TV itself) 120 Hz allows for even "spacing" between all the original 24 fps film frames (aka "5:5 pulldown").

FYI, a blu-ray at 24p isn't doing inverse telecine; it's just not adding the 3:2 pulldown to create 29.97fps video in the first place. 

A 120hz (or 240hz) TV can accept that 24p; what it does from there is up to the manufacturer.  Some TVs may do 5:5, some may interpolate frames, some it's not really clear what they're doing--surprise surprise, manufacturer claims and actual testing sometimes don't agree :P  Who'd a thunkit.

[Polysorbate80]

120 hz looks weird.  I've heard people say that's how TV was meant to look, and we just haven't been able to see it properly before now.  I just kind of think, well if that's true, how come everything looks like a soap opera?

It's hard to explain if you haven't seen it.  But you immediately think "soap opera" when watching anything on 120hz.  I was watching House and it looked like Days of Our Lives.  It might be trippy to watch an actual soap opera on 120hz.  Anyway, watching 120hz for more than an hour gives me a headache.

NTSC TV in general does provide that "soap opera" look.  The wierdness comes in when converting 24-frame film to 30 (technically, 29.97) frame video.  It comes out with a different look & feel than something produced at a native 30fps.  To further fuck things up, a lot of 30fps video is doctored to look like it's at film frame rates to give it that "documentary" feel.  There's nothing technically right or wrong about either one, it's all a matter of how the producer wants the finished product to be perceived.

[dusematic]

Then why do soap operas look like soap operas?  That's what I don't get.  So weird.

[Polysorbate80]

Because they're barely a step above game shows & talk shows for production values? 

Soap operas are shot directly on video with the minimum of production required to meet their very short turnaround time to get them on the air five days a week.  You can't spend more time on them, except for those few special episodes where they do something unusual, such as leaving the set to go on location.  You don't fuck around with getting the soaps on; people will storm your TV station with torches & pitchforks if they miss their favorite soap.

[Sky]

Neb, I just got an email that Amazon is having tv sales regularly on Mon and Tue:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=pe_28230_12493640_as_txt_1/?docId=1000373741

[dusematic]

Because they're barely a step above game shows & talk shows for production values? 

Soap operas are shot directly on video with the minimum of production required to meet their very short turnaround time to get them on the air five days a week.  You can't spend more time on them, except for those few special episodes where they do something unusual, such as leaving the set to go on location.  You don't fuck around with getting the soaps on; people will storm your TV station with torches & pitchforks if they miss their favorite soap.

Well I guess I don't understand why high production value programs look low budget when you're essentially just bumping the framerate.  In any case, I'm not sure I like it, though I have friends that swear by it.  It's a strange phenomenon.

[Polysorbate80]

If I understand what you're getting at correctly, then I think it's just psychological.  Films are big budget, high production value material (well, in theory at least), and they have a particular look on TV that's different from 30fps native video.  We've grown up seeing that difference, and it's what we're used to.  That's the reason many programs are manipulated to appear as though they were shot on film, when they really weren't.  I'm guilty of it myself :P

The same works in reverse.  Give the film the same visual feel as everyday television like soap operas/talk shows/gameshows/whatever, and it starts to feel "low-budget", even though the content hasn't changed at all.  Just the look.

[dusematic]

Interesting, thanks.

[Tairnyn]

Thanks for this thread Nebu. The timing was perfect.

My 10 year old tube TV finally passed away this weekend prompting me to enter the 21st century and buy my first LCD TV. With BB offering me 3 years of 0% financing I couldn't help but invest in a quality set that would last me a while. Based on the suggestions and wealth of information in this thread I went with a 46" 120 Hz Samsung and I must say it is a fine piece of technology. Having never really watched HD programming without the 120 Hz it hasn't been too disconcerting but I do see the weirdness when watching movies, especially those using green screen effects. Sometimes I'd like to turn it off but I'm hoping it's something we'll get used to over time. I also grabbed a PS3 for DVD/BluRay (at least that's the story for the wife, couldn't resist the bundle w/ MGS4 and Killzone 2) so I'm eager to see what BluRay looks like before deciding if the soap opera look is an artifact of the interpolation, or whatever it's doing.

One thing that does annoy me is the dynamic contrast since it seems like the change in brightness is signficant and can be annoying especially when playing games, so I may turn that off entirely. Are there any other suggestions for settings that can improve the overall 'look and feel'?

[Cyrrex]

Somewhere out there I think you can find a guide showing you the best "tested" settings for your exact set.  lcdtvbuyingguide.com comes to mind.

Also, with that set I'm pretty sure that you actually CAN turn off the 120hz...or even adjust it to different levels to meet your taste.  You can even split screen it (demo mode or something) to determine your preference, though I've found that you need a more exteneded viewing to really figure it out.

[rattran]

Turn off dynamic contrast/dnie and invest in a copy of Digital Video Essentials or AVIA and tune the set. Set it as directed, then watch some stuff to get used to it. Tvs tend to ship with weird levels of contrast, too much brightness and too intense colors, getting everything balanced for where you have it makes a much better overall viewing experience.

[Polysorbate80]

Don't be afraid to play with the basic settings, with one exception:  one of your submenus should be for "calibration"; do not mess with the settings in this one unless you know what you're doing.  They're not intuitive, and you can really screw with your set.

You should be able to adjust how intense the 120hz is, although it's generally a matter of "pick from x number of options" rather than a slider or any such.  Just play with them and see what floats your boat; I run with it at "low" most of the time.

I keep dynamic contrast on as well for blu-ray & TV viewing, but also kept to the lowest setting.

This may sound a bit odd coming from someone who produces video for a living, but I never worry about adjusting my set to be "true" to NTSC standards.  Play around with it and set it for what looks good to you--I run with my chroma a little oversaturated and the blacks just a tad crushed.  It's not "accurate", it's just my own personal preference.  Or maybe I'm just sick of keeping all the damn monitors around this place dialed in :P

Also, your TV may keep different settings for each input so you can tweak them all for the attached hardware.  For instance, HDMI 3 on mine is the XBox 360, all the processing is off on that one to reduce potential latency.