Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr

[eldaec]

Or specifically...

'wider choice of character customisation'
'Server clustering for RvR' presumably meaning shared frontiers.
'iRVR' appearing to mean instances of fixed population battles.


From the Herald...

It’s the week before Christmas and all through the ‘Nets, all the creatures are stirring including their pets. With a land that is dark, and a world made for war throw in a place made forever, there is no room for snores. There’s excitement and mirth, laughter and beer, in the end though what counts, Mythic’s still here.  We’ve worked and we’ve slaved, and we’ve delivered our best, now the next question from you is “What are you giving us next???”

So, holiday rhymes aside, what the heck am I talking about? Well, the last six weeks has seen the release of two of the most anticipated and expensive, MMORPGs to date along with the release of our next, but certainly not last, expansion pack Catacombs. These games were built to crush the competition but they will not succeed. Yes, we have lost subscribers but we aren’t hiding and we certainly aren’t running from the competition.  As I’ve always preached, competition is good for the industry and good for the soul (even if it is a little hard at times). So, what are we going to ensure that DAoC continues to be one of the top US MMORPGs? Simple, we are going to continue to improve it. Catacombs injected a new graphics engine that puts the game right up there or ahead of anything else on the market. Our instanced areas and other changes have made the game easier than ever to play and succeed in than ever before. New classes and new areas have added new depth to an already deep world. And, best of all, the Catacombs launch was the cleanest launch of all time from our perspective (least downtime, fewest bugs, fewest customer support calls, etc.) and we have set the standard (again) for the launch of a product. However, that is not good enough and over the next few months, here are some of the presents that players will find under their Mythic trees. Matt will be giving out more details on all these things tomorrow.

First, we are going to be adding a lot more options for customization of your characters. What we’ve done is great, but we want to be even better. So look for an ongoing effort to make a diverse world even more diverse.

Second, as always Mythic has been listening to its player base and we know that on some servers, the lack of a large number of players engaged in RvR at any one point in time can be an issue. Because DAoC is both a PvE and RvR game, we are particularly vulnerable to downturns in the population of a server. So, we have been thinking and trying to come up with a good solution. While we could do something like a server merge, we wanted to come up with something better since even a “simple” merge has a host  of problems associated with it. Well, it has taken a bit but we have come up with something that is even better. Thus, we introduce server clustering. Without going into too much details, what this means is that players will have a lot more friends and enemies in RvR, but not change the home server’s community unless the players seek to do so.  We believe this will make for even better RvR without any of the problems associated with server merges and players leaving their communities. We are the first to ever do this in the industry and we hope that you will enjoy it.

The third present is Instanced RvR areas. This is one of the most requested features by our players and, as always, we have been listening. Adding iRvR to our game takes it to an entirely different level and the stuff that we are working on for it I think will surprise you.

As required by lawyers everywhere, the usual disclaimer that this letter is a guide as to what we hope to do during this period and not as a guarantee of any kind. I always hate saying this but that’s what lawyers are for, to make us say things that we hate.

So, that is a quick State of the Game from here. We’re gearing up to celebrate a great year, full of things that went right, some things that went wrong and some things that apparently can’t make up their mind (you know some things are just that way!). From all of us at Mythic, a Happy Holidays and we thank the community for its continued support and patronage of DAoC!

[chinslim]

SWG combat revamp vs DAOC iRvR and clustering.  Anyone want to start the clock?

[Shockeye]

Start the clock on whether DAoC's instanced RVR or WoW's instanced battlegrounds debut first.

After seeing Blizzard in action, my money is on Mythic.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, I'd put my money on Mythic as well, unless I start thinking about adding player-owned mounts.

Say what you want about Mark Jacobs, at least he never buries his head in the sand and acts like there are no other competitors out there. He says "We lost customers to our competitors."

Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept.

[Paelos]

Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept.

It would be a lot more popular for the controls it provides. I would increase the action, it would decrease the zerg, and it would round out the population imblances faster. I would envision a BG like example for every major keep out there, including the relics, which would add a more fun feel to the game in addition to balancing the community. Putting more space into the game is never going to solve the RvR issues, it just makes them more complicated. That's why smaller and more defined is going to the be the answer.

[Johny Cee]

Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept.

No way.  Instanced rvr will likely turn into the epeen waving preserve of gank groups (or at least I hope....).  I like 8 v 8 fine,  but gank groups ruin alot of the fun for casual/pickup type players, who can't or won't min/max to that degree.   For me DAoC rvr was always about the 2-3 man run to Doden's/Uppland,  or chasing/hunting or baiting stealthers in DF.

Although I will admit,  the most fun I had in the game was the very rare evenly matched large zerg vs. large zerg 20 minute open field fight.  Too bad it only happened once or twice a month.... and that's on Pel with not too terrible population disparity.

[eldaec]

Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept.

It would be a lot more popular for the controls it provides. I would increase the action, it would decrease the zerg, and it would round out the population imblances faster.r.

It'll be attractive to the solid 8 man teams who pine for emain.

Less so to the large numbers of more casual rvr players who actually prefer keep sieges, and who, assuming their PC can handle it, would be happy as a pig in muck if you could just give them two even sized zergs facing off against each other. (And these people benefit from the frontier clustering most)

Everyone's a winner.

[Nebu]

Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP?

Initially, I think you're right.  In the long run it will depend entirely on implementation.  I assume that they will try to introduce some sort of balance (i.e. by RR) when deciding which groups can engage in iRvR.  Over time, instanced RvR will become even more about what the casual gamers hate: items, ML's, group construction, and communication (teamspeak/ventrillo) that will decide outcomes.  Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate.  

My prediction is that most people will dabble with the instances for a while, but then head back to the fronteirs.  Seige keeps and zergs do a lot to minimize the effects of not having the perfect gear/communication/ML's/group makeup.  

Overall, the addition of instancing and clustering will be a benefit to everyone.  Those that enjoy 8v8 can get it and those that enjoy zerging in NF will have more people to zerg with.  Unless they really screw up the implementation, this is a win-win for Mythic.  It may just be enough of a gauze pad to slow the bleeding for a few more months.

[SirBruce]

Say what you want about Mark Jacobs, at least he never buries his head in the sand and acts like there are no other competitors out there. He says "We lost customers to our competitors."

I'm still waiting for him to give out a number.  Maybe in January?  But I never had any doubt he'd be straight about it.  Mark does have a marvelous ability to spin what he says in a way that puts his position in a positive light, but I've never known him to lie about the facts.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate.

Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time.

[Mesozoic]

Mythic needs to either

1)  admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character, or

2) turn the "1-50 and beyond" grind into something that at least takes place in some kind of entertaining fantasy world with a coherent backstory and game rules that make sense.  

Sadly the remaining playerbase has already achieved (1) and has no interest in (2), so the motivation to do either is essentially (0).

[Johny Cee]

Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate.

Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time.

I disagree, a little.  The larger the number of players on both sides,  the less important min/maxxing is and the more important organization is.

Solo, most of the time, is all about class and "I-win" arties/ras.

Group, less so,  but still important.

2-3 coordinated pickup groups (i.e. non-maxxed players) can tear apart a zerg, if they have decent organization.  Move around a bit, string em out, than wipe the groups as they catch up to you.  Of course, most of the time it's freeze frame/death sound....

Smaller zergs often wipe larger when the smaller side is on the same page, and have someone competant calling the shots.  

I agree whole-heartedly with what Nebu said, as well.

[personman]

1)  admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character, or

I'd come back for that and happily stay.

It's mortified me to watch my DAoC buds catassing their way to L60 in WoW so "we can finally have fun".  It was that mentality that drove me out of DAoC when I was outleveled almost immediately.

[Sobelius]

DAOC's instanced RvR is also a pre-emptive swing at  Guild Wars' instanced PvP.

However, even as a long-time DAOC player, I'll take GW's PvP over DAOC PvP. IMHO it has the best combination of "my character" + "PvP" (as opposed to BF1942- or SWBattlefront-style PvP where there is no "my character"; and as opposed to SB, AO, SWG, EQ, DAOC, AC, AC2 or WoW PvP where the systems were just not well designed for balanced confrontations.)

I had more fun the one night our 8-member Bat Country Guild team spent an hour battling another 8-member team than I ever did in any PvP in DAOC. And it has nothing to do with winning. We lost the GW battle, but it was a hell of a fight (maybe a tad too long, but still fun).

[HaemishM]

Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate.

Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time.

I disagree, a little.  The larger the number of players on both sides,  the less important min/maxxing is and the more important organization is.

Solo, most of the time, is all about class and "I-win" arties/ras.

Group, less so,  but still important.

2-3 coordinated pickup groups (i.e. non-maxxed players) can tear apart a zerg, if they have decent organization.  Move around a bit, string em out, than wipe the groups as they catch up to you.  Of course, most of the time it's freeze frame/death sound....

Smaller zergs often wipe larger when the smaller side is on the same page, and have someone competant calling the shots.  

I agree whole-heartedly with what Nebu said, as well.

Communication in MMOG's = Organization. Organization cannot exist without communication.

[eldaec]

Mythic needs to either

1)  admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character.

I absolutely agree that 1-50 has turned into nothing more than a barrier to changing class at will (You can argue a case for or against this).

But everything beyond 50 is overrated, the amount of MLs and artifacts you *need* to be competitive is much lower than your typical board troll will admit.

What you need in daoc to be competitive beyond 50 in RvR is organisation.

Organisation > MLs, RRs, and artifacts.

(Also organisation makes getting MLs, RRs, and artifacts trivial)

Large scale rvr is mostly about who has the best cat herders. It has much less to do with individual skill, post-50 'levels', or even numbers, than most players will admit.

[SirBruce]

Hey guys, you better watch all the Mythic bashing.  Remember what happened last time:

http://vnboards.ign.com/DAoC_General_Board/b5176/19019156/p1

Bruce

[Ironwood]

Not funny.

[eldaec]

More detail on new noses...

More Catacombs Character Customization Options

Building upon the foundation laid with Catacombs, we will provide additional options for customizing your characters. A new batch of faces, hairstyles, tattoos (where appropriate), and more will be introduced in the coming months. Remember, Catacombs players can change their character’s appearance by talking to an NPC found in their Realm’s friendly Catacombs city.

 
On clustering...

Server Clustering

We have been paying close attention to the community feedback from our different servers.  Several servers have populations high enough to support exciting RVR. However, our lower-pop servers often don’t have enough fighting players logged in simultaneously, and gameplay on those servers  is suffering.

To alleviate this problem, we've come up with a new solution: we will “cluster” the servers. The intent of this system is to give players lots more friends and enemies in RvR, but not change the home server’s community unless the players seek to do so. The way it works is as follows:

    * Servers that are clustered will have shared battlegrounds and frontier zones. Thus, all players on the clustered servers will RvR together.
    * For PvE, players will have a choice of which server’s PvE zones they wish to enter (among the servers in that particular cluster). The current plan is to put an NPC in the capital city that controls which server’s PvE zones you enter – if you want to venture to another server in the cluster, you may do so by talking to that NPC, which will let you zone into other server’s PvE and housing zones. For example, if in a cluster of three servers, players on all three servers can adventure on each of the three server’s PvE zones.
    * Players will be able to send private messages (/sends and /tells) to each other across the clustered servers, just as if they were physically logged on to that server.
    * Players from “foreign” servers that are adventuring on another server in their cluster will be identified as “[playername] of [servername]” or something similar.
    * Some servers will be clustered and some will not, depending on population.


These are just the basics; we’ll announce the full system when it is implemented around the beginning of the new year. At that time, of course, we’ll announce the actual servers that will be clustered together, and when we do so we will take into account which Realms “fit” together best amongst the servers.

This is effectively a full server merge with CoH style zone instances.
 

 
And on instanced RvR....

Instanced RvR

A common question during Catacombs’ development was whether or not Instanced RvR would be coming. We decided to focus Catacombs on PvE – but now that the expansion has launched, we’re putting together a design and starting to implement Instanced RvR. I don’t have too much to tell you about it, other than it will be a “matching service” that will find groups from other Realms on your server (or cluster!) and put you into a dungeon-type area to RvR. We are working on different types of rulesets right now; more information will be forthcoming when Instanced RvR goes into testing.

 

 

We will post complete information about each of these new additions when we put them up on Pendragon for testing – expect to see the first patch notes in the first half of January.

[Shockeye]

If the PVE grind wasn't so crushing in DAoC, I might re-activate my account someday.

[Soukyan]

If the PVE grind wasn't so crushing in DAoC, I might re-activate my account someday.

/agree

[Ironwood]

Is there any online game out there right now that the f13 people won't slate for a crushing grind ?

Seriously ?  

People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now.

[eldaec]

To be fair, people slate the crushing grind in daoc because...

1) You need to complete it to get to any of the interesting content (RvR, ToA etc - battlegrounds are all very well, but they don't work when they are empty, ie. all the time).

2) It's galling to watch multiboxers blaze past you pling a 5th alt to 50 in 10% of the time it will take you to get there.

3) There is noone left to group with from lvl 1-40.

People don't yet slate the crushing grind in WoW or EQ2 only because there because there is still a low level community.

[Soukyan]

Is there any online game out there right now that the f13 people won't slate for a crushing grind ?

Seriously ?  

People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now.

Honestly, DAoC has a crushing grind. Those others you mentioned, not so much. I actually still enjoy CoH and WoW. Perhaps it's just burnout from DAoC... actually, no it isn't. I still loved the RvR system when I quit playing the game. I quit because of the crushing PvE grind. Hell, the PvE content is even interesting, but it becomes boring because of the time you have to spend staring at the same stuff. If they lessened the grind, it would be more enjoyable. But they won't and that's fine by me. The people who don't mind the time investment or using a buffbot for everything can enjoy themselves. I just hope some other game takes a good hard look at DAoC's RvR and implements something comparable because it's a very good system.

[Nebu]

What makes the grind to 50 in DAoC isn't the incline of the treadmill from 1-50.  With the catacombs expansion, I'd confidently state that even a novice can make it to the endgame faster than any of the major players on the market.  An experienced player can go from 1-50 in the instanced dungeons in a week or two with a single box, faster if they are PL'ed.  Also add in the low population level bonus (a free level every 2-3 days on some servers) for those wanting to help a realm at a disadvantage.

The pains in DAoC come from two places:

1. Most of the PvE is mind-numbingly dull.  Bad pathing, predictable AI, and a repetitive combat system... I guess this isn't so unique to DAoC. PvE isn't exactly rocket science.

2. The grind once you hit level 50:  ToA has mandated that you attain ML's, gather and level artifacts, and piece together an assortment of items (many crafted by a dwindling crafter population) called a template.  This is the portion of the game that makes competing in the "fun part" a drag.  Yes, you can participate in the rvr endgame without these things, but you do it knowing that you are immediately at a disadvantage.  Note: you can attempt to combine the artifact farming/ML's with your leveling from 40-50, but this requires the help of friends and/or a good guild.

Mythic did do a couple of things right with the Catacombs expansion in that they made the grind to 50 shorter, improved the graphics a bit, and added new drops that WON'T AFFECT RvR LIKE ToA DID!  Sorry... I still twitch when I think about how ToA turned the endgame into an arms race.  I think the proposed instancing and clustering of servers for RvR will help as well... at least for the existing community.  

Personally, I enjoy RvR quite a bit and find that part of the endgame worthwhile.  The downfall of all of this is clear.  I think that though improved, the grind to 50 combined with the ToA armsrace will deter most newcomers from giving this title a try.  This is a shame since the one thing this game needs most is an influx of new blood.  

Edit: Don't think I'm deluded.  If you're a fan of PvE, there are much better games out there.  I think that DAoC is really geared for those that want RvR as their primary form of gameplay.  Outside of RvR, every new game outshines DAoC.  I'm still looking toward CoV, WoW, and GW to see how they handle their PvP systems... let's see what they learn from past history.

[Rasix]

People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now.

Nearly 41 in WoW now.  Still no grind in sight.  

I think I was sick of DAoC's leveling nearly instantly.  I've really had more fun constructing accident spreadsheets when I worked in traffic engineering.

[AlteredOne]

Aye Soukyan, same feelings here.  Played DAOC for 3 years on and off, got to Realm Rank 7 on my hero.  I *loved* the game, back before Trials of Atlantis.  My favorite times were organizing keep takes with my guild, in Old Frontiers.  I beta tested the New Frontiers and like the concept, but somehow it was just not much fun.  As a tank, I could not do much beyond banging on doors.  All my friends re-rolled as casters and scout types, with buffbots.  

Guildwars is great fun, but it does not capture the "RvR" feel.  It's fun group-vs-group combat, and that's all.  My ultimate fantasy game would this:
- Very low level treadmill, like GuildWars
- Strategic RvR with a huge map, similar to DAOC
- Game mechanics that encourage spreading out on the map, via a complex system of meaningful objectives.  No game has done this.  DAOC was simplistic "capture the flag" with relics, and tit-for-tat keep takes for Darkness Falls access.  And of course, there was the ubiquitous "zerg" problem, because there were not enough incentives to spread out.

There ya go.  I'm not excited about these DAOC changes, for two reasons:
- Frontiers RvR will be even more dead, with the uber groups off doing 8v8 instances.  They will effectively be segregated into an uber deathmatch community.
- Server clustering will not alleviate the problem of Frontiers being an exclusively ranged affair, with tons of mega-botted ToA'd catassers duking it out in "spy vs. spy" with arrows.

[HaemishM]

Hey guys, you better watch all the Mythic bashing.  Remember what happened last time:

http://vnboards.ign.com/DAoC_General_Board/b5176/19019156/p1

Bruce

Dick.

[Paelos]

What makes the grind to 50 in DAoC isn't the incline of the treadmill from 1-50.  With the catacombs expansion, I'd confidently state that even a novice can make it to the endgame faster than any of the major players on the market.  An experienced player can go from 1-50 in the instanced dungeons in a week or two with a single box, faster if they are PL'ed.

My Bullshit-o-meter went off the charts at this statement. Unless by "experienced" players you mean people that piss in cups so they don't have to get up, I seriously doubt the validity here.

As for the other two statements, I heartily agree. ToA killed the game. Expansions are supposed to be fun and add-ons that give the people that buy them new things to explore. They aren't supposed to give the players a totally different focus on finding and collecting inane crap to compete in the endgame. They'll never get another dime from me.

[Nebu]

My Bullshit-o-meter went off the charts at this statement. Unless by "experienced" players you mean people that piss in cups so they don't have to get up, I seriously doubt the validity here.

Please don't confuse me with someone that thinks catass = skilled.  

By "experienced" I was simply referring to knowing fundamental aspects of the game.  What areas are best for hunting, what quests to do, which quests to tandem, what classes level the fastest, what classes make the most efficient groups, etc.  My "experience" was more a nuts-and-bolts knowledge of game mechanics.  Anyone that played the game with a modicum of insight will be more successful than someone that is new to the game.  

I'm willing to bet that you levelled at a faster rate with your second toon than your first.  That's the type of experience I was referring to.

[eldaec]

1 to 2 weeks played time I can agree with.

1 to 2 weeks elapsed time seems unlikley.

[chinslim]

1-50 in Catacombs may sound easy.  Too bad you still need to TOA since all the Catacombs items are PVE-only.  But TOA to me really isn't the issue.  

DAOC fundamentally is about grouping.  In 2 expansions with new classes, how many of those classes have been support?  In each realm, you've got multiple classes that can act as a "tank", multiple classes as the "nuker", but there's still only 1 class per realm that can be the primary healer and/or buffer?  I don't care if you can play some new uber damage dealing class - it's nothing in DAOC without the proper support(whether it's a buffbot or not).

Quality RvR competition(the number of groups out in the frontiers), and even quality PvE, is limited by the least class played that's considered essential to group makeup.

I can take the PVE grind(it's fun socializing during downtime), I can take getting rolled by high RR's...I cannot take sitting on my ass for 2+hours LFG.

[Nebu]

1 to 2 weeks played time I can agree with.

1 to 2 weeks elapsed time seems unlikley.

Ok, if we're going to split hairs the amount of time to get from level 1-50 will vary depending on how many hours a day you play.  I'll try to do this based on /played and let people make a decision from there.

The last toon I leveled to 50 prior to the release of catacombs took me about 3-4 days played.  The fastest I've heard people level a toon to 50 was in 24-28 hours while being PL'ed.  The catacombs expansion seems to have improved the rate of experience by 35-40%.  Add to this a free level every 2-3 days as well as low population bonuses and leveling is quite a bit faster than it used to be.  

The math: In an idealized case, I'll consider 3 days with a 40% reduction that's about 43.2 hours played.  If a gamer plays ~20h a week, that's roughly 2 weeks.  Of course, we could get into semantics about 20h a week being hardcore so times may vary.  

Conclusion: I think that you're correct in your statement that 1-2 weeks was a bit too low of an estimate on my part.  I'd certainly say that someone should be able to play semi-casually and still get to 50 within their free month.  This would, of course, depend on their server choice, character class, etc.

[Rasix]

And yet despite it being quick  (if you pick the right server, know all of the leveling spots, pick the right class, pick the right build, do the hokey pokey at 1am on Wednesday while sacrificing a calf) in mmorpg end game terms *snicker*, it wil still be a boring, horrible experience. Combine this with the other prereq boring, horrible experiences you need to go through before you're officially certified 100% USDA RvR ready, and I don't see why any new player would even look twice at Dark Age when there's other less ass intrusion heavy games on the market.

It's a crushing grind Nebu. I'm not quite sure how you're disproving this.

Edit: Don't take me too seriously here. I like poking and prodding DAoC players. How you put up with so much garbage just mystifies me.  (I play WoW with two ex DAoC catasses, their exploits are burned into my memory.)

[Nebu]

DAOC fundamentally is about grouping.  In 2 expansions with new classes, how many of those classes have been support?  In each realm, you've got multiple classes that can act as a "tank", multiple classes as the "nuker", but there's still only 1 class per realm that can be the primary healer and/or buffer?  I don't care if you can play some new uber damage dealing class - it's nothing in DAOC without the proper support(whether it's a buffbot or not).

I agree completely.  Big issues here are that a) buffs are almost mandatory for PvE and RvR if you hope to compete and b) most of the support classes are just plain boring to play.  

I can take the PVE grind(it's fun socializing during downtime), I can take getting rolled by high RR's...I cannot take sitting on my ass for 2+hours LFG.

You have me beat... my PvE tolerance is almost nil.  WoW and CoH are the best implementations of PvE I've seen in this genre and I can still only take a little before I lose interest (1 month of CoH, 2 weeks of WoW).  

As for the second statement, I agree as well.  One of the problems with DAoC RvR is that it demands a balanced group. If you don't have a strong network of online friends, it can mean playing in a painfully bad pug (pickup group) or sitting doing nothing for hours.  Both of these are becoming even bigger problems as the populations have dwindled since the release of WoW and EQ2.  This is why I think clustering may be beneficial... perhaps by increasing server numbers there will be more opportunities to find groups and create new social networks.