Casinos

[Venkman]

Two part question:

1) How do you feel about casinos in general?
2) How do you feel about them in your backyard?

Next town over is proposing them if the Massachusetts government allows them. These wouldn't be the dodging-the-State-law-with-Federal-land variety ala Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, but rather, officially authorized and legislated.

As you can imagine, the town is polarized. It seems like it's mostly ideological (gambling = bad, gambling = tax revenue). They just did one of those mock traffic studies off of the existing Massachusetts Turnpike. Completely stupid. The whole off ramp would need an extra lane or two and three or four more lanes at the booth, but all they did was add a few dozens cars an hour on Tuesday mid-day. And we're not talking Boston here. This is out almost in the sticks.

Personally, I'm fine with Casinos. Somewhere else. I'm not a gambler, but understand the allure (how can I not as an MMO gamer?).

What are your thoughts?

[Hawkbit]

If you add one to your Sim City crime in that area will go up.

[IainC]

Two part question:

1) How do you feel about casinos in general?
2) How do you feel about them in your backyard?

Next town over is proposing them if the Massachusetts government allows them. These wouldn't be the dodging-the-State-law-with-Federal-land variety ala Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, but rather, officially authorized and legislated.

As you can imagine, the town is polarized. It seems like it's mostly ideological (gambling = bad, gambling = tax revenue). They just did one of those mock traffic studies off of the existing Massachusetts Turnpike. Completely stupid. The whole off ramp would need an extra lane or two and three or four more lanes at the booth, but all they did was add a few dozens cars an hour on Tuesday mid-day. And we're not talking Boston here. This is out almost in the sticks.

Personally, I'm fine with Casinos. Somewhere else. I'm not a gambler, but understand the allure (how can I not as an MMO gamer?).

What are your thoughts?

This isn't the 1950s. Casinos aren't about the mob or organised crime any more. It's just a business. I'm guessing that out in the sticks the plan is to open a fairly low-key establishment rather than a Vegas-style mega-destination? I've worked in places like that and there are a lot of misconceptions about the crowd who frequent them - most of our punters were small-time local businessmen (owners of restaurants, food wholesalers and taxi companies). It's also worth noting that the casino business is one of the most tightly regulated and closely overseen industries there is.

Are the 'gambling is evil' crowd also campaigning to get rid of lottery tickets in gas stations?

[rattran]

I suppose this is destined for Politics, but let's see if we can keep it here for a bit.

I'm not a fan of what Casinos and the stuff with them do to an area. Sure they bring in jobs, but not skilled, well paying ones. And they generate revenue for the city/county/state, but not enough to make up for the added costs. Mostly they seem to act as a tax on the poor. I grew up on the island north of Atlantic City. When the casinos came in, AC became a much more dangerous place, as did surrounding cities. Tourism increased for the casinos, decreased elsewhere in the area. Property values went up, and the middle class fled. Plus the seemingly endemic corruption and organized crime that goes with Casinos.

I'm watching Illinois add more gambling. For a well regulated and controlled industry, it's pretty damned mob-heavy here too.

[Lantyssa]

Do you like buffets with endless variety of good food?  If yes, you want casinos.

Do you throw all your money away paying penny slots and can't stop yourself?  Then no, not really.

[Salamok]

Two part question:

1) How do you feel about casinos in general?
2) How do you feel about them in your backyard?

Next town over is proposing them if the Massachusetts government allows them. These wouldn't be the dodging-the-State-law-with-Federal-land variety ala Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, but rather, officially authorized and legislated.

As you can imagine, the town is polarized. It seems like it's mostly ideological (gambling = bad, gambling = tax revenue). They just did one of those mock traffic studies off of the existing Massachusetts Turnpike. Completely stupid. The whole off ramp would need an extra lane or two and three or four more lanes at the booth, but all they did was add a few dozens cars an hour on Tuesday mid-day. And we're not talking Boston here. This is out almost in the sticks.

Personally, I'm fine with Casinos. Somewhere else. I'm not a gambler, but understand the allure (how can I not as an MMO gamer?).

What are your thoughts?

I think i'd rather have a crack house in my neghborhood.  1st the casino then pawn shops, divorce lawyers and more foreclosures.

[Venkman]

Yea, maybe this is more appropriate for Politics. I'll let the smart people decide

This isn't the 1950s. Casinos aren't about the mob or organised crime any more. It's just a business. I'm guessing that out in the sticks the plan is to open a fairly low-key establishment rather than a Vegas-style mega-destination? I've worked in places like that and there are a lot of misconceptions about the crowd who frequent them - most of our punters were small-time local businessmen (owners of restaurants, food wholesalers and taxi companies). It's also worth noting that the casino business is one of the most tightly regulated and closely overseen industries there is.

Are the 'gambling is evil' crowd also campaigning to get rid of lottery tickets in gas stations?

They're not planning a low-key establishment like adding slots to a race track or something (horse and dog racing are already legal, as is charitable Bingo and of course lottery). It's a full-scale destination, like Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods in Connecticut. Those places I consider more a destination than just a gambling hall. And I don't have some moral problem with them. They're a business, which by nature is about separating people from money.

My beef is with the traffic. It's already a bad spot that will require an entire overall (off ramp, toll booths, all the roads that lead to it, and two main roads that lead to that) I'm quite sure will happen after the casino is already open and only because the residents apply pressure. I lived that crap on Long Island for 20 years. Build first, fix maybe. Compared to where the first Mohegan Sun was, Palmer MA is a veritable city. And it's the same company (they bought the land under the Romney administration probably assuming correctly that the return to Democrats would bring dreams of more tax dollars for Boston).

[Salamok]

I used to work in that industry and travelled all over setting up systems for casinos, trust me when I say unless your name is Billy Blackhorse you don't want one anywhere near you.  

They have fucked up many places and as a rule should only be allowed to open as a last resort for places that are already fucked.

Any of our Aussies here on the board live in Melbourne?  What are your thoughts on the pre/post casino lifestyle in your city?  And for those playing the U.S. version, do we have any pre/post casino Kansas City folks in the audience?

Casino's that are built out in the middle of nowhere have a much smaller impact but dropping them on a mid to large sized city is a recipe for disaster.

[pxib]

Horse and dog racing are a lot slower paced than a casino, lotteries even more so. The amount you can get the "I almost won some money!" feeling is spaced out by the distance between plays. If a lottery ticket is a chocolate bar, a horse race is an energy drinkl, and video poker is methamphetamine. Lose all the money you arrived with, in small increments, for just a few hours... each individual decision easy to make, each individual risk low, and next thing you know you're going home broke. As rattran says, all forms of gambling are a tax on poor, desperate people who don't understand economics or probability.

If you want poor, desperate people to pay more taxes... casinos are a great idea.

[cmlancas]

and video poker is methamphetamine

This leads to (Mike Caro's, I think?) theory of people losing money past the point of pain.  Every gambler's been there at least once.

[IainC]

This is mostly a problem of education and support. Yes there are people who have serious problems with gambling and these people need to be given help in various forms - I know at the casinos I worked for we would bar people at their own request for example, most casinos are required to provide information on gambling addiction and (in the UK at least) casino managers are trained to be able to spot and approach problem gamblers as a requirement for their licence. Most casino managers I've worked for understand that a guy you take for everything is a bad investment and that telling someone to go home early for their own good is better in the long run both for the punter and the casino.

People need to understand that money you take into a casino is money you have spent. Very few people walk in thinking they're James Bond and they're going to walk out a millionaire. I have worked in casinos and I enjoy visiting them, I'm off to Vegas in about a month and I'll almost certainly head up to Cripple Creek while I'm at the inlaws in Colorado too. I have a budget and I expect to leave without it. As far as I'm concerned I'm paying for entertainment, I'll have <an amount of money> worth of blackjack or poker, as long as I get that I'll be happy and if I get to take anything home then that's a bonus.

[Strazos]

I feel pretty much the same about going to casinos; I set a hard limit of cash for myself, fully intending to lose it all. I actually like playing craps, so I don't feel bad if it doesn't work out in the end.

Though, truth be told I've walked out even (or slightly up) the last 2 times I've been down to AC.

[gryeyes]

Several large casinos within close proximity to me (Indians). I stick strictly to blackjack and poker, leave my credit card and any assets i don't intend to lose in the car. I tend to go to a casino more for entertainment and food over gambling. Lots of amateur fights (boxing and MMA) steady stream of good food. But they are pretty grimy places in general, most of the people there don't appear to be having a good time. I almost invariably see someone crying as they stumble to their car after losing the kids college fund.

Unrelated but interesting the Casinos in my state saw their profits almost double when smoking was banned in bars/restaurants.

[Soln]

I'm going to just respond to the questions:

1) casinos are awful - they are not the economic engines of good people make them out to be.  They bring more crime, more government oversight, more basic public expenditures to support them. Witness NV.  The spin-off's in other companies to support them only happens if they have competition.  Otherwise, if they are the one game in town they are just toilets for money and they always, always hurt low income earners the most.  Who in turn need more help.  Other people are also affected -- I'm just saying from experience low income earners are raped more by these probabilistic fairgrounds and they wind up costing other tax payers more.

2) casinos are self-serving and will change that community.  See #1.  They are very very needy businesses.  If only for people who don't like them, who try and over-legalize their operations.  In any way, they are an appalling headache. And it's always lose/lose.

Plucked from my own opinions as my town got one near 12 years ago.

[Grimwell]

1) How do you feel about casinos in general?

I like them. The ones I'm exposed to are very nice places that are upscale and clean. The food is good, the portions are large, and it is very easy to have a good time on a budget.

2) How do you feel about them in your backyard?

I've got them in my backyard. From the local Indian casino to the chain casino on Indian land. They are there when I want them, and not there when I don't. Traffic is definitely heavier around the casino's, but I can avoid it with ease when I don't want to be near it.

Everything else? I don't know and don't care. I'm blindly happy. I expect to lose what I take to them, and just try to make it last long enough to call it a fun night with my wife.

I gamble about twice a year mind you.

[Azazel]

Any of our Aussies here on the board live in Melbourne?  What are your thoughts on the pre/post casino lifestyle in your city?

I'm pretty ambivalent to the Casino itself. The thing is that they leagalised gambling across the board - it wasn't just one Casino that they dropped into the city. Basically, your late-night card game with friends playing for 20-cent pieces was illegal. Now it's pretty much all legal.

Previously, there were only the horses, and the various lottos. And scratch lotto tickets.

The biggest impact on stupid people isn't the casino itself, but the myriad of "Pokies" - video poker machines. Which are located in a lot of places. Pubs that used to be band vanues have changed over to them, as well as a lot of RSLs and places like Lawn Bowl clubs. Then there's also the purpose-built places.

I dunno. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who lose their shit to these things. Gambling's a "disease" like being an alchoholic is a "disease". Lack of willpower > stupid people.


Having said all that, I don't do casinos, poker machines, horse racing or any of that crap. I can see the skill of sorts in horse racing and football pools - knowing your teams and horses etc, but I have no interest myself. I've been to the Melbourne casino once, for a look, with my brother. It was clean, etc. They don't seem to have any food there though - I think that's all takenm care of by the many very overpriced businesses that are clustered around inside the complex. (they basically built a shopping centre around it). I left just as interested as I was when I went in.

[Bunk]

I have I think four government sponsored casinos within a half of hour of me, all of them put up in the last ten years or so. All run buy the government's lottery corporation - most of the proceeds go to social programs.

Haven't seen any huge crime zones or moral decline since they sprang up.

Also, it's nice having real poker rooms nearby.

[Numtini]

Wow, I hadn't even heard about that plan, but that's pretty standard for Mass--Worcester is the far western fringe of the state and anything past that is wildnerness or "zoo mass." I'm a total hypocrite. I think Casino's are great as long as they're somewhere else. I tend to think you're better off with a large resort that's a place unto itself rather than something that is part of a town. It may not have quite the same business spinoff, but it doesn't crap up the place as much either.

I've driven through the Palmer area a few million times  going back and forth to U-mass and appears to be a complete armpit of decaying 19th century factories, fundie churches, and bars (even one of the few western Mass strip joints). It's really hard for me to imagine that a casino is going to make anything there worse than it is now. The same would be true for a nuclear weapon though, so that's not really a casino endorsement.

Overall, that's probably a good location. It would draw the eastern Mass business back into the state from Mohegan and Foxwoods, but is in a good position to draw some business from elsewhere.

[SnakeCharmer]

1)  Ambivalent.  They're fun and a decent getaway for the weekend if you time it right with a good show.  But I'm fully aware that I'm most likely going to lose money when I go, instead I just look at it as a very expensive night of drinking wherein a whiskey costs me about 100 bucks every 30 or 45 minutes.
2)  Not in my backyard. 

[Nevermore]

Just find a place out in the middle of nowhere not close to anything else and make a whole resort out of it.  Casino, hotel, restaurants.  Oh and stick the prisons out there too, since no one wants those in their backyards either but everyone loves building more.

[Johny Cee]

Wow, I hadn't even heard about that plan, but that's pretty standard for Mass--Worcester is the far western fringe of the state and anything past that is wildnerness or "zoo mass." I'm a total hypocrite. I think Casino's are great as long as they're somewhere else. I tend to think you're better off with a large resort that's a place unto itself rather than something that is part of a town. It may not have quite the same business spinoff, but it doesn't crap up the place as much either.

I've driven through the Palmer area a few million times  going back and forth to U-mass and appears to be a complete armpit of decaying 19th century factories, fundie churches, and bars (even one of the few western Mass strip joints). It's really hard for me to imagine that a casino is going to make anything there worse than it is now. The same would be true for a nuclear weapon though, so that's not really a casino endorsement.

Overall, that's probably a good location. It would draw the eastern Mass business back into the state from Mohegan and Foxwoods, but is in a good position to draw some business from elsewhere.

So.  Better or worse than North Adams?  I'm fairly certain I saw a billboard for the Estoric Order of Dagon there.

I always wonder how much of the situation in western Mass is a result of the presence of so many private colleges, universities, and touristy type things trading on the bucolic New England image, and how much squashing of development initiatives goes on behind the scenes.

[Sky]

I love the casino. I don't gamble, though I have played a few hands of blackjack over there. I go for the concerts, they've got two rooms, one small and one large, and it's the only place between Albany and Rochester that artists seem to play anymore. Concert promotion in this area is a dead art, used to be soooo good. Seeing Buddy Guy in Poughkeepsie means gas $$, time and an overnight at a hotel. Nice, but $$ and we need the time to do it. We can catch an artist at the casino and be home in time to get to bed for work the next day. Also, I can hit their box office and get good seats to every show. The worst seats I've had were 5th row for Heart. I've seen a bunch of stuff from the front row, next month I'll see Buddy from the front center!

Anyway. Otherwise, they're very bad for sucking money from a whole lot of people who can't afford it. I used to work with a guy who had a real bad problem, typical gambler "I can win my way out of this hole!".

On the third hand, they're a massive employer that pays decent wages, give good hours and bennies.

My dad loves their PGA course, he's met most of the pros out there working the tournaments.

[Broughden]

I suppose this is destined for Politics, but let's see if we can keep it here for a bit.

I'm not a fan of what Casinos and the stuff with them do to an area. Sure they bring in jobs, but not skilled, well paying ones. And they generate revenue for the city/county/state, but not enough to make up for the added costs. Mostly they seem to act as a tax on the poor. I grew up on the island north of Atlantic City. When the casinos came in, AC became a much more dangerous place, as did surrounding cities. Tourism increased for the casinos, decreased elsewhere in the area. Property values went up, and the middle class fled. Plus the seemingly endemic corruption and organized crime that goes with Casinos.

I'm watching Illinois add more gambling. For a well regulated and controlled industry, it's pretty damned mob-heavy here too.

Mmmmm, maybe not skilled but they can certainly be well paying.
NPR ran a story this weekend on the boom and bust of Las Vegas. Talked about the valet parking attendant who paid cash for a Ferrari with all the tips he made.

[Segoris]

I go for the concerts

^This. A Horseshoe Casino (Harrah's) opened up in Indiana just outside of Chicago and has been a good place for some shows. I couldn't care less about the gambling aspect, but I'm guessing it brings in some good tax dollars for that area while providing multiple forms of quality entertainment.

To answer the OP's questions directly, I don't mind casinos and think they are good for certain areas.
Do I want one in my backyard? No. I like living in quiet areas and really like the area I'm at. It's a small train ride into Chicago, and I have almost anything I could possibly want within 10-15 minute drives (most on the drive home from work too). I honestly don't want things like stadiums, casinos, tracks, etc to make their way near the area I live at.

[Sky]

I'm guessing it brings in some good tax dollars for that area

Not sure about your area, but Indians don't pay taxes. There's probably a lot of trickle down, but there's been a simmering unrest about the millions they're raking in tax-free. WIthout even getting into how they want to buy up more land to put in trust (thus not pay taxes on it).

[Salamok]

NPR ran a story this weekend on the boom and bust of Las Vegas. Talked about the valet parking attendant who paid cash for a Ferrari with all the tips he made.

Personally I think this is another non healthy aspect of the gaming industry.  Warps every employees sense of humanity to that of a con mans, everyone is a mark you are looking to make a tip off of.  This is not a happy constructive world view.

[Nebu]

Not sure about your area, but Indians don't pay taxes. There's probably a lot of trickle down, but there's been a simmering unrest about the millions they're raking in tax-free. WIthout even getting into how they want to buy up more land to put in trust (thus not pay taxes on it).

Considering how many treaties were broken while taking the land away, I'm fine with funding some of their land retrieval through the exploitation of stupid white people. 

[Segoris]

I'm guessing it brings in some good tax dollars for that area

Not sure about your area, but Indians don't pay taxes. There's probably a lot of trickle down, but there's been a simmering unrest about the millions they're raking in tax-free. WIthout even getting into how they want to buy up more land to put in trust (thus not pay taxes on it).

  yeah I forgot it's American-Indian owned which translates to no tax dollars, durrrrrrr.  
But yeah, they still put on some entertaining shows.

Edit: Although now I'm curious if there are donations or agreements in place with the one in Indiana to donate x% for improvements.

[Jain Zar]

I deal at one of the CT casinos.  Tons of people genuinely believe they are gonna win.  And its not all the poor.  Tons of rich fucks drop MAJOR coinage to the point I have no clue where they get it. 
As a dealer I do see certain games and playstyles which are heavily dependent on age, ethnicity, and gender.

If you are playing with funny money for shits and giggles its DUMB, but your right.  Spending money you can't afford or just being a tool because OMG YOU JUST WANT TO HAVE A LITTLE FUN?

Bite me.

Also, working at the casino is why I started collecting toys after a decade of not buying toys.  If people can spend THOUSANDS of dollars a minute, i can buy the odd 10 dollar Transformer right? 

[Righ]

NIMBY.

[Venkman]

Worcester is the far western fringe of the state and anything past that is wildnerness or "zoo mass."

Yea for sure. I've lived north of Boston and now in the sticks. I've also lived on Long Island and in Rochester, so seen the same effect in NY, just to a different degree. Massachusetts is truly one city and the boonies. At least New York dulls that a bit with Buffalo and Rochester (which you need to count as one).

That plus your accurate description of Palmer is why they could speculate on 150 acres of land in the hopes of a maybe/someday policy change 

Like I said earlier though, I don't mind Casinos. Mostly because they serve as a good Stupid Tax. And particularly in MA, they'd probably be run by the State Lottery commission and therefore all funding what Bunk's local casinos fund: social programs. Like Gambler's Anonymous  And they'd be the resort variety in the middle of nowhere so probably have minimal direct (as in walking-distance-while-drunk-and-depressed) impact on the town.

It's just that I drive through the middle of nowhere to get to work.

[Sky]

Yeah, I wish NY would just take over the casinos. Indians making millions tax-free while the state budget swirls down the shitter. 

[Murgos]

Actually, I would like to see them stick a casino right in Boston proper.

[WayAbvPar]

I love casinos. I would sell a kidney to have a good cardroom >5 minutes from my house. I don't play anything but poker unless I am in Vegas grinding out player points, but I don't begrudge the folks who subsidize all my cheap food and booze by playing games with a large house advantage. I would love to have a large non-Indian casino nearby so I could gamble in a smokeless paradise.

[UnsGub]

How do you feel about casinos in general?

Casinos are who you know not what you do.

I spent a few years working in the Casino game industry.  The industry was moving from paper\manual based systems to electronic ones like https://www.igt.com/Content/base.asp?pid=59.326

Every design, development, test, support, purchase, etc. decision has a money value.  It either costs the business, customer, or government money.

No Casino has opened late, hence no slipping a ship date This generates the associate pressure shipping to a date and not a feature set or quality.  Cutting both is the norm.

No one is trusted or has responsibility since customers, employees, and the government steal from the money pot.  Everything requires two or more people to do in an attemt to limit collusion.  All decision making is slowed down as a result.

Casinos are not for profit.  Too much profit mean paying more taxes so casinos just hire their friends to increase their expensive and in turn pay less taxes.  Better to give the money to a friend then the government.

For the government which has requirements for gaming system one would think it would be well documented and it is not.  Gaming agency visits are behind closed doors for a reason.