EvE Bank down or Troll?

[Thrawn]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1094185

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1094219

No proof of any kind yet, could be trolls.  But I wouldn't be suprised if it has some truth.  Pretty recently a Goon was explaining how easy it would be to rip them off and with them handling as much isk as they are it was only a matter of time before something happened or they scammed people or whatever.

[Kovacs]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1094185

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1094219

No proof of any kind yet, could be trolls.  But I wouldn't be suprised if it has some truth.  Pretty recently a Goon was explaining how easy it would be to rip them off and with them handling as much isk as they are it was only a matter of time before something happened or they scammed people or whatever...  AGAIN!
 

700 billiion wasn't a big enough lesson the last go around?

[FatuousTwat]

Wasn't the guy who is now running EVE bank second in command to the guy who did the 700 billion ripoff?

[MahrinSkel]

So, 2 months ago there was a default on a ridiculously large (250-400B) unsecured loan, and Selene wanted to audit the books, but found out records were so bad it couldn't be done, or at least the rest of EBank didn't want to go to that much trouble.  They also didn't want to have the loss go public (and maybe trigger a run), which may have been why they didn't want a full audit (impossible to hide).  Selene withdraws from participation, but doesn't formally quit until today, after another EBank guy named Ricdic apparently embezzled from the bank to the tune of $5K after conversion to real money.  He resigns, word leaks out about the loan and the embezzlement, triggering a bank run?

Gripping drama in a finance geek sort of way, very "meta" with the virtual bank panic, but I find it interesting to speculate on what entity might have been able to get a loan for that much, only to wind up defaulting 2 months ago?  BoB/RKZ is the most obvious, is anyone else a viable suspect?

--Dave

[Endie]

This just shows i am waaaay too involved in the strategy game and need to browse some other parts of the Eve world: I had no idea that this was going on.  Ricdic was involved in the Eve Investment Bank scam, albeit mainly as (probably initially genuinely convinced) cheerleader and possible shill, only later moving to employee (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=940185).

I'm always amazed that people invest money with anyone rather than known friends in this game.  Reg lent me 8 billion, but he knew me and that I'd have to sever ties to here (or at least become a shunned hate-figure) rather than default, so it wasn't like this sort of affair where the people running it will virtually inevitably get bored and say "you know, maybe I'll just cash in."

[gryeyes]

Ya thats one thing i never understood about the "banks" in EVE. At some point the risk/benefit equation is going to result in someone getting ripped off. This is true even in the meat world with real consequences in a video game it is a foregone conclusion. Especially in a game where trading characters is so widespread and legit you can just vanish avoiding even the minimal social consequence of a shitty reputation.

[Thrawn]

but I find it interesting to speculate on what entity might have been able to get a loan for that much, only to wind up defaulting 2 months ago?  BoB/RKZ is the most obvious, is anyone else a viable suspect?

Supposedly RoyofCA had a large scam in the works that involved Ebank and a loophole he found in their system.  But I don't think this is related as it fell through some time ago.  

I'm always amazed that people invest money with anyone rather than known friends in this game.  Reg lent me 8 billion, but he knew me and that I'd have to sever ties to here (or at least become a shunned hate-figure) rather than default, so it wasn't like this sort of affair where the people running it will virtually inevitably get bored and say "you know, maybe I'll just cash in."

Agreed, I never understood how people can basicly just read a post that says "Hey, I'm trustworthly." and send them a ton of isk.  From day 1 I read about EvEBank I've been laughing to myself and waiting for the eventuall rip off, I was suspecting it would be the 1trillion mark to set some sort of new game record.

[Reg]

Yup, I've lurked in the Market Discussions EVE forum for years now and watched scam after scam unfold. I really can't imagine why anyone would get involved in those so-called investments other than scammers and wannabes.  Better to keep my isk in a sock under the bed than give it to those people.

[Jayce]

Is there a business case for getting involved and getting out early?  Or are the returns too low to justify it?

[MahrinSkel]

Is there a business case for getting involved and getting out early?  Or are the returns too low to justify it?

Even in a straight-up Ponzi scheme, the ones who get in early and out before the blowoff can make serious bank.  The problem is that if your piece is big enough, your attempting to get out may *be* the blowoff.  Ultimately you're trying to sting the scammer, and that's way too many wheels within wheels for me.

Anyway, people put money in this stuff because they have isk they can't productively use, whatever their market niche is they have filled it to the point that throwing more money into it won't see any gain and they're not interested in trying to launder it into actual cash.  And some of the proffers are genuine, and fill real economic needs and make a shitload of money for their investors who don't have to invest any of their time to get the return.  Me and Dark Shikari had very different net worths (his was always much higher), but our incomes were comparable because there's only so much money you can make from working the market as a middleman 20-30 hours a week, and we were crowding up against it.  He parked chunks of the extra money into various ventures (including a loan that had helped me start up) because he really couldn't stand to let it sit in the wallet doing nothing, and didn't have my appetite for the 0.0 Grand Game that burned off all my surplus.

It's all about reputation, and Selene's involvement gave EBank credibility (even though not all of his ventures have been or remained successful, he's never been anything but straight in handling them).  His departure was enough to trigger a run all by itself, never mind the other circumstances.  I don't think EBank was a scam, as much as that it was vulnerable to being scammed from within, and more concerned about maintaining a sterling reputation than in doing what it took to justify that trust.

--Dave

[Thrawn]

I don't think EBank was a scam, as much as that it was vulnerable to being scammed from within, and more concerned about maintaining a sterling reputation than in doing what it took to justify that trust.

--Dave

I do agree with this, I never thought it was started with the intention of a scam.  Just more, as you said, waiting for someone within to get too tempted by too much isk or something similar.

[Gets]

The seeds for this was put in place a long while ago back when a bunch of players such as Fitz Vonheise, evn and Xabier started gaining trust for the bank. They used to run a decoy alliance called Code Red, where one of the member corps lost billions when another joined from a different corp in the alliance having the recommendation from the alliance leaders, thus gaining fast and easy director roles.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=978274
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=978317

Massive speculation without any solid fact in this paragraph, but let's say if you have access to up to 2.7 trillion ISK, wouldn't you try to heist more than just heh 200 billion when you decide to go for the "end game" cleaning job? Ricdic himself had claimed that Xabier took the 200bil from Dynasty, with evn taking a measly 30bil and change to boot, which I believe since Ricdic's own personal assets were worth more than 200bil. It looks more like EBank got scammed and Ricdic got the blame, so he's in hiding now, supposedly banned for who knows what and being made a scapegoat. Nothing about the guy suggests he would get involved in RMT to cash in the ISK, since he has a good real-life job while being genuinely interested in the banking and financial aspects of EVE. GMs aren't allowed to discuss account bannings though, so if any info might come about that it would have to come from the man himself.

[Murgos]

Isn't 200 bil ISK on the order of 15K USD?

That's a lot of temptation for the *worst thing that happens* being an account ban.

[Sir T]

If you can convert that into real cash

[gryeyes]

How would you do it? Trade the isk for physical GTC's then sell those at a discount to a wholesaler?

[Thrawn]

Isn't 200 bil ISK on the order of 15K USD?

That's a lot of temptation for the *worst thing that happens* being an account ban.

That seems very very high, that would put 20billion at $1,500 USD and 2 bil at $150.  I could probably almost quit my job and play EvE instead if that were the case.

[Sparky]

Yeah I just checked the RMT sites and you can buy it at around $20 for 1 bil.  Joe Cash-out would get a small fraction of that for his megabillions.  Still enough to buy a nice computer or something I'm sure.

[Goumindong]

Isn't 200 bil ISK on the order of 15K USD?

That's a lot of temptation for the *worst thing that happens* being an account ban.

converting from cash to isk, you're at about what, 300m for a 30 day time card on the market[estimate], and it costs 15 bucks for one of those. So if you're converting cash to isk you can get about 200b for $10k.

However, you can't convert to cash in that manner, you can only convert from cash with the new secure time code method. So you have to go to RMT sellers. RMT sellers have to sell much lower, and if you're selling your isk, you're either going to have to make a personal sale or sell to the RMT folks. Personal sales seem quite hard to me, since everyone is going to want to do it via time codes. So you're going to have to sell to an RMT'er below whatever rate they're selling plus whatever risk premium they're putting on the sale from a stranger[rather than the farming methods they use]

Short answer. You're not going to get shit for your 200b.

[Sparky]

You could probably make some decent money buying characters with that isk then selling them for bucks.

[WayAbvPar]

You could probably make some decent money buying characters with that isk then selling them for bucks.

I had the same thought.

[Jayce]

To sell characters, again you'd have to either work with some shady operators or do private sales.

I had a friend in a guild who started a private gold-selling thing in WoW since he was injured and couldn't work, and spent most of his day farming gold anyway.  It apparently turned out even more lucrative than he thought, since he sold all his gold within a week and couldn't be arsed to make more. He just made an introductory post and had people PM him.

So if you're in a big alliance/corp who don't frown on that, you could possibly go that route.  However you'd probably have to sell at a substantial markdown from GTC prices to dissuade people from just buying GTCs, because if you get busted, their wallet could go negative (and you'd be in the fun position of offering refunds).  So it would have its risks and you'd have to probably settle for 75% GTC value in RL cash.

Incidentally, this is another way in which the GTC system actually discourages rampant RMT.

[gryeyes]

Do you have to use the secured method? Last time i played it was a policy of "if you dont and get scammed dont bitch".

[MahrinSkel]

You don't have to, but since most of the legitimate sales have migrated to it, if you buy outside of the system from a stranger your chances of getting scammed are much higher than they used to be.

It chokes off the demand for isk for the RMT merchants (since even at steep discounts, the secure Cash->GTC->ISK process is easier and safer as a way to raise game capital, it takes a huge amount of potential customers out of the RMT market), which means those operations have very little interest in buying isk on the open market (compared to making direct deals with isk-farmers based in eastern Europe or China).  Especially since CCP has been known to run stings, where they sell isk to RMT merchants so they can trace where it goes and how it is laundered.

Trying to launder 200B isk into real cash would get you only pennies compared to the nominal value set by the GTC market.

--Dave

[Gets]

There's the legitimate option of converting the ISK into Forum Gold and using it to buy something else for a different MMO altogether.

http://forums.d2jsp.org/forum.php?f=84

d2jsp.org was founded in 2002 on the mechanics and gameplay of Diablo II by Paul Taulborg. We have changed and grown into the largest gaming and trading community on the Internet.

d2jsp.org is currently a huge international social network community and trading nexus, which focuses around an economy based on d2jsp Forum Gold. Players can buy and trade Forum Gold for numerous goods and services across a diverse platform of online games and users.

[sanctuary]

Gripping drama in a finance geek sort of way, very "meta" with the virtual bank panic, but I find it interesting to speculate on what entity might have been able to get a loan for that much, only to wind up defaulting 2 months ago?  BoB/RKZ is the most obvious, is anyone else a viable suspect?

--Dave

Looks like it was a KIA loan made years ago unsecured to Eddz, passed on to a corp that has since left KIA.

[Gets]

So as I predicted Ricdic had someone post an explanation for the eve-o forums. There are doubts to whether he actually wrote it though.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1094517&page=11#307

Ok so by now everyone knows what I have done. It is correct that I took approximately 230b off EBANK. It is also true that I engaged in RMT trading on this sum of funds. Most was successfull, the RMT character I was using was banned with about 40b cash on hand. [...]

There is no justification or excuse that would make up for what I done. I had an incredibly hard decision to make, the choice between family and video game. The outcome would have been far worse had I chosen Eve. This still doesn't justify it. I have every belief that the current staff will be able to pull things up and ensure no losses, and it might actually encourage some of them to pull their fingers out.

I guess it's always hard when we are asked to choose between internet spaceships and something else, like new teeth.

[gryeyes]

Internet spaceships seems a pretty flimsy justification for betraying people that guy considered "friends". Its more like opportunity with no physical repercussions. Same factors in a real world situation i have no doubt that person would make the same choice (random suitcase of friends money,could disappear never to be seen again). That is a good amount of text to identify if its the guy or not.

[Murgos]

Internet spaceships seems a pretty flimsy justification for betraying people that guy considered "friends". Its more like opportunity with no physical repercussions. Same factors in a real world situation i have no doubt that person would make the same choice (random suitcase of friends money,could disappear never to be seen again). That is a good amount of text to identify if its the guy or not.

I pretty sure that any hypothesis that's based on the premise of 'random suitcase of friends money' isn't going to be a good basis for rational discussion.

[Endie]

It's like you people never read Plato's Republic and his story of the Ring of Gyges 

[Jayce]

I had an incredibly hard decision to make, the choice between family and video game.

I don't know the rest of the story, and haven't read the eveonline thread, but the above seems like a copout to me.

"Choosing between family and video game" is a highly charged thing to say, but it's not really the issue. Quitting EVE is a choice between family and a video game, but quitting EVE while cleaning people out for a few hundred billion which you then launder into RL money is less morally defensible.

[Sir T]

What are you talking about He robbed people blind and pocketed the cash FOR THE CHILDREN!!! 

[gryeyes]

I pretty sure that any hypothesis that's based on the premise of 'random suitcase of friends money' isn't going to be a good basis for rational discussion.

Dont let the example confuse you, its irrelevant to the point. Its the ability to personally profit without fear of consequence. A random suitcase of money (an example based on experience) is just a simplistic way to express it.

[MahrinSkel]

Somebody page Eldin for a professional opinion on this one.

--Dave

[Murgos]

I pretty sure that any hypothesis that's based on the premise of 'random suitcase of friends money' isn't going to be a good basis for rational discussion.

Dont let the example confuse you, its irrelevant to the point. Its the ability to personally profit without fear of consequence. A random suitcase of money (an example based on experience) is just a simplistic way to express it.

Um, fuck off you twat.

[Phildo]

the Ring of Gyges 

If that's not the one that Elijah Wood threw into a volcano before soaring off on an eagle with his life partner then no, I haven't.