Loophole in WoW allows PvP players to snare PvE players

[SirBruce]

It works like this:

1. PvP player finds PvE player fighting a mob.
2. PvP player mind controls mob, which causes PvP player to stop attacking.

At that point, one of three things will happen:
1. If the player realizes what's happening, he can move on to another mob... but the PvP player can follow him around, continuing to grief him and preventing the PvE player from getting any XP.
2. PvE player doesn't realize what's happening, and starts attacking the mind-controlled mon again.  This instantly flags the PvE player for PvP.
3. PvE player has a pet.  Pets don't stop attacking when the target is mind-controlled.  If the player doesn't stop the pet in time, it'll hit the mob and, again, flag the player for PvP.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=286975&p=1&tmp=1#post286975

Basically, this is just more proof that PvE and PvP shouldn't co-exist in the same RPG.  Yes, there are ways to fix this exploit in the code, but there will always be issues like this that come up.

Bruce

[Ganon]

How exactly is this evidence that "PvP and PvE shouldn't exist in the same MMO?"  It seems more like evidence of "a known bug that needs to be fixed".  I could just as easily point to the Arachnophobia quest pre-fix and say "See?  There's a bug...PvE shouldn't exist in an MMO".

[SirBruce]

I have no idea what the Arachnaphobia quest is.  If it's a quest that was in an open PvP MMOG that forced PvE, then I might agree with you... PvE shouldn't exist in that MMO.

Bruce

[Reg]

God it's like Ultima Online. Is Blizzard determined to recreate every mistake ever made in the history of MMOGs?

[eldaec]

Isn't this the same as saying 'the fact that it is possible to intentionally train mobs in EQ means that MMORPGs should all be single player games'.

ie. horseshit.

There will always be exploits to grief other players in all multiplayer games of any sort. That's why we have patches.

[SirBruce]

Isn't this the same as saying 'the fact that it is possible to intentionally train mobs in EQ means that MMORPGs should all be single player games'.

No, because there is a business advantage to not making it a single-player game: people pay more for massively multiplayer, and give you a better return.

But will you get a better return by having PvP in your PvE MMOG?  Virtually no North American MMO has managed to find the magic formula that accomplishes that, and many have failed.

Bruce

[Joe]

Am I the only person that thought, "Why doesn't the PVE guy switch to PVP and kill the asshole?" I can't be alone. This isn't a PVP issue, folks, it's a grief issue, and is just proof that without open PVP there is no real way to defend against grief.

[Margalis]

Meh, you're both wrong, it's proof of nothing.

Open PvP solves some problems, and also opens up as many as it solves.

This is proof of some bad game logic, nothing more. Mind controlled creatures shouldn't count as pets. There are some other exploits with mind control as well. All it proves is that they guy who programmed up mind control needs a demotion. Reading into it any further is just furthering your own personal crusade.

[SirBruce]

Not all programming is perfect.  There will always be unintended and unforseen side-effects in any complex piece of software.

The point is, adding PvP to such a game increases complexity and allows such bugs to creep in.  And more to the point, these are exactly the sort of bugs that annoy your customers far more than any graphical glitch.  Is putting PvP in your PvE MMORPG really worth the increased complexity, especially given the realities of the marketplace?

Bruce

[Ardent]

Jesus.

It's a bug.

They'll fix it.

Unclench.

[plangent]

The problem isn't that pvp and pve can't coexist.  The problem is that humans can't coexist.  With a thousand people in one place at least 50 of them are going to be bent on making others miserable.

Rather than bemoaning this situation, we should be grateful.  Here is a perfect opportunity to start identifying these people, getting their physical address from their billing information and dispatching real life death squads to cleanse the gene pool.

I'm sure the GMs would be willing to provide whatever documentation is necessary on these people to authorize said death squad.  Gotta have that paperwork.

[Venkman]

Bug, yes. It's obvious too, given the lack of other loopholes. I'm only surprised it wasn't picked up until now, months and months since they had separate PvE and PvP servers.

Does it end all further exploration of integrated PvP on PvE servers? No. Reactionary horseshit. If this was one in a whole sea of bugs, exploits, and complete niavete on the part of Blizzard, maybe PvP would be a huge problem in WoW. As it is, it is not.

It's griefable, but easily fixable. Given how fast they've reacted to speedhacks and RL item sales, I imagine they'll close this quick enough.

Until then, dying in PvP incurs no penalty at all... at least on a PvE server, where I imagine this 'sploit would happen most of all.

[chinslim]

I've been abusing this around Auberdine :)

Of course, I play on a PvP server where Blizzard has explicitly stated they don't give a $#%.

[Ironwood]

The problem isn't that pvp and pve can't coexist.  The problem is that humans can't coexist.  With a thousand people in one place at least 50 of them are going to be bent on making others miserable.

Rather than bemoaning this situation, we should be grateful.  Here is a perfect opportunity to start identifying these people, getting their physical address from their billing information and dispatching real life death squads to cleanse the gene pool.

I'm sure the GMs would be willing to provide whatever documentation is necessary on these people to authorize said death squad.  Gotta have that paperwork.

I like him.  Can we keep him ?

[El Gallo]

If you want to bitch, bitch about something they have actually come out and said is broken as intended.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=283585&p=1&tmp=1#post283585

Now that is some asinine shit.   That's hell for pick-up groupers, everyone will be hanging back like a Diablo 2 Baal hit for fear of losing kill credit.  After a multi-hour instance clear, risk aversion runs high.  Also a nice FU to warriors (as if they needed another).

Imagine how that pans out in raids.  1 guy out of 40 dies during the fight, and they get told "well, sucks for you, but we can try again next week when our lockout timer resets."

[chinslim]

In SFK, if Arugal mind controls you and he dies, you don't get credit either.  Happened to me yesterday and I didn't get a chance to roll on the uber robe he drops.

[Ironwood]

If you want to bitch, bitch about something they have actually come out and said is broken as intended.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=283585&p=1&tmp=1#post283585

Now that is some asinine shit.   That's hell for pick-up groupers, everyone will be hanging back like a Diablo 2 Baal hit for fear of losing kill credit.  After a multi-hour instance clear, risk aversion runs high.  Also a nice FU to warriors (as if they needed another).

Imagine how that pans out in raids.  1 guy out of 40 dies during the fight, and they get told "well, sucks for you, but we can try again next week when our lockout timer resets."

Ok, I read the post and the thread.  What's the problem again ?

Guy dies during battle.  Not given the reward.  Big deal ?  Surely that's just sense ?

[HaemishM]

God it's like Ultima Online. Is Blizzard determined to recreate every mistake ever made in the history of MMOGs?

Yes.

EDIT: And yes, Bruce is overreacting. It is merely proof that some people go out of their way to discover the best manner in which to be cockmunchers.

And on the RP server, I AM taking durability hits when I die in PVP. I did this weekend, because instead of trying to get my body in the middle of a shitton of enemies, I ressed at the spirit healer. The spirit healer penalty is still all sorts of fucked up.

As for no credit in an instance when you get killed, that's fucking stupid. Especially in instances with lockout timers.

[El Gallo]

It is not sensible in a group-based MMOG.  Boss fights are designed to be extremely challenging at the appropriate levels, one or two group members will often die especially if it is a pickup group.  Part of the challenge of being a healer is being able to decide who to let die in certain circumstances, part of the challenge of being a dpser is being able to burn something down when the tank dies and part of being a tank is knowing when and how to back off and when and how to go all out and let yourself die to give your team a few more seconds to kill the baddie.

When your group spends 2 hours clearing an instance and on the last 3 seconds of the boss fight someone dies or gets mezzed/slept/charmed by the boss, that person should get credit for the kill.  You win or lose as a team.

If you want to be a hardass, then say everyone does not get credit if one guy is dead or mezzed at the end.  The dead person is not necessarily the one "at fault" (if anyone at all is at fault).  There are occasions where getting yourself killed for the good of the team is the right play, and you shouldn't be punished for that.  It also encourages all kinds of bad behavior, most obviously holding back and general selfishness, but also bottomfeeding.

 Imagine that in EQ you couldn't get PoP flags if you died during the boss fight?  Talk about pounding toothpicks through your eyeballs.

The fact that sometimes you get credit and sometimes you don't lends credence to the theory that this is bugged to hell.  Broken as intended (TM).

[Toast]

Blizzard is showing a glaring lack of understanding of raid and challenging content here. I am sure they will receive a harsh education in the next couple of months as the high level population grows.

[Merusk]

Hm. I'll have to experiment with it, but I could have sworn that if you were rezzed without releasing you still got credit for whatever kill you were after.  It's the releasing that screws you over because of whatever funky mechanics and coding they did to implement the 'death world' for corpse runs.  

If I'm right it's less harsh, but it'll still screw people over in big raids. The timer's only 6-mins long, and releasing after death is something that's almost instincutal to me now at only level 35.  Die, release, aw crap.

[Reg]

Yup, there are classes where it's your duty to die and take one for the team if you're playing your character properly. Sometimes my paladin in FFXI would have to suicide by grabbing aggro back from the mages when I was close to death and they were out of juice. It was just part of the job.

I sure wouldn't want to do that if it meant missing out on the credit for a big quest.

[personman]

It's a bug.

They'll fix it.

And the next one.  And maybe the next one, or it might get labeled a creative use of magic.  And then the next one, if the new holiday expansion doesn't get priority.  And so on.

There really aren't many codesets out there that managed to blend the playstyles without constant struggle.

[Morfiend]

Hm. I'll have to experiment with it, but I could have sworn that if you were rezzed without releasing you still got credit for whatever kill you were after.  It's the releasing that screws you over because of whatever funky mechanics and coding they did to implement the 'death world' for corpse runs.  

Thats how it works. If your dead, but the party kills the mob, you still get credit for the kill. As long as you do NOT release. Seems fine to me.

[geldonyetich]

I play on a PvP sever, myself.  Loophole?  We don't need no stinking loopholes.   No shortage of targets in the contested areas.

[SurfD]

Myself, I have an Argural Death story much the same.  In the last seconds of the Fight, I died.  While sitting there as a corpes, I actually got to roll on the robe, and I won the roll.  Unfortunately, there was no one in the party who could rez me, so I released.  
In order to clear that quest, you do not need to get "credit" for the kill, you need to get his Head off his Corpse.  By time I managed to run back to the instance, I was half way through the keep when his body fucking despawned.  Thats right.  2+ hours in the instance, win the robe, and his FUCKING BODY DISSAPEARS before I can claim my reward OR my quest completion item.

Needless to say, I wasnt terribly impressed.

[Viin]

That does suck, but your group shoulda rezzed you or summoned you back in time.

[El Gallo]

Hm. I'll have to experiment with it, but I could have sworn that if you were rezzed without releasing you still got credit for whatever kill you were after.  It's the releasing that screws you over because of whatever funky mechanics and coding they did to implement the 'death world' for corpse runs.  

Thats how it works. If your dead, but the party kills the mob, you still get credit for the kill. As long as you do NOT release. Seems fine to me.

A lot of people are saying that it does not work that way reliably.  It may depend on which loot option you have set.  http://fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=252638#post252638  Even if it worked reliably, it is entirely unacceptable for raids and beyond unacceptable for people who are mezzed/slept/charmed to be locked out.  It also begs for grief in pickup groups.

[sinij]

Solution? Play on PvP server where this isn’t a problem. You could also wait for a bug to be fixed, it isn’t like they have flying tanks at release.

[SirBruce]

I've seen the same type of "flying tanks" problem in WoW, but only once, because for the most part they don't have every character moving with three arbitrary dimensions of freedom.

Bruce

[CmdrSlack]

Haven't you cashed in your WW2OL investment yet?

[SirBruce]

Nope.

Bruce

[Margalis]

They should just make PvE servers where there is NO PvP at all outside of arenas/battlegrounds. (And maybe NPC interaction as well) Basically PvP in a PvE server should only occur at very well-defined points.

[naum]

I've seen the same type of "flying tanks" problem in WoW, but only once, because for the most part they don't have every character moving with three arbitrary dimensions of freedom.

Bruce

Troll.

[SirBruce]

Great minds discuss ideas;
Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.

Bruce