The Titan Problem

[amiable]

46dp Sov switched to -A-, so.. yes, seems its back to Querious.

Welcome back!

[setar]

Good DD indeed! Any GS titans involved this time? Can't load the killboard.

[amiable]

Good DD indeed! Any GS titans involved this time? Can't load the killboard.

Of course not, we are far to incompetent to use Titans in an offensive role.  That was PL and RZR I believe.  You guys thought you were clever by baiting the double DD with some hacs only to jump your BS into another double DD. 

Titans are ruining this god-damn game.

[trevorreznik]

Good DD indeed! Any GS titans involved this time? Can't load the killboard.

Titans are ruining this god-damn game.

yo hey i agree with you!  maybe once this war is done we'll see less of this, since critical titan mass (3-4 titans) won't be reached as easily without big coalitions, but by that time there will just be more built :I

[setar]

Of course not, we are far to incompetent to use Titans in an offensive role.  That was PL and RZR I believe.  You guys thought you were clever by baiting the double DD with some hacs only to jump your BS into another double DD. 

Actually, from what I am hearing, this wasn't clever but just a screwed up communication. Hilarious nevertheless :)

[Sir T]

Of course not, we are far to incompetent to use Titans in an offensive role.  That was PL and RZR I believe.

And KIA.

AAA Spokesmen are pulling a BOB 2.0 and saying it was only 38 BS lost... because 38 AAA BS. You see.

Anyway They didn't do much the rest of the day, though I heard ROL brought in some caps and hit some towers in 49-.

Tomorrow I guess they will attempt to blob up to control Eutrotime like they did before, which they may well do as its some kind of holiday in Russia on Friday. I have a feeling things will be different than before somehow. Oh and I think TCF are on the attack again, as someone in fleet relayed some intel from TCF that they were in n enemy system with over 400 in local and only 58 reds. Not sure where though.

BTW a corp "Against Polish Authorities" was created 4 days ago and put into AAA Citizens. That will go down really well with Coven I imagine.

[trevorreznik]

H74, Kenny's latest target (which they foolishly tried to do without asking for protection from their Russian masters), is hellpurged: they lost all their towers there today.  That's a dozen towers.

We killed one of Kenny's five towers in 1-S, their only Delve system.  One more and it will go neutral.

As noted, Kenny called in Russian help and they lost 120+ battleships and various support to our four tacklers.

In M0O, Exe's logistics mid-point in Delve, we killed one of their towers, so that will go neutral soon.

KIA and MM have outspammed Exe in one of their station systems.

Now we've taken down one of Exe's cyno jammers in another station system and are reinforcing everything.  Probably won't be the last action like taht of the night, I'd guess.

And now AAA are back en masse so we can expect this to get bogged down and messy for a while, with us back on the defensive and Kenny daring to log in caps again.  It's beginning to look like a bite-and-hold thing.  You see, Eve is a lot like WWI...

Oh, and Darius has handed over to Zapawork as the new Goonswarm CEO.  Long overdue, to be honest: we've been fighting the war without a CEO for well over a month.  Darius has probably been the most successful CEO since Remedial, and has led us into the Golden Age of Goons.  Now he needs to go and get ready for his kid's imminent arrival.

I feel like going through point by point :)

I'm somewhat surprised at how ineffective GKC is in their prime, I know that -A-+buds support is important but come on, that's just silly.  I believe a lot of it has to do with PL being so much more effective this time around than last year (much higher numbers, same great FCs), but even so, no TCF, no RA, etcetcetc and they're getting stomped on.  No real surprise though when I think about how bad BoB got at the end.  I'm curious to see how EXE responds-they have the 2 day sov claimer in their favor, so I expect them to at least counterspam and stay ahead, until GS/MM/RZR/etc all plant 5 at once to prevent that fight going the way DG- did-however many towers you can kill, you can't outkill 2 day claims unless you have total control.

With regards to -A-, here's the KB link I see about losses: http://www.northern-coalition.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=426269 72 bs.  I don't know where the 120 number is coming from other than 'some dude on TS said he counted wrecks' which is notoriously bad, but then again, lag may have eaten a lot of the mails.  Regardless, it wasn't the # of bs lost that mattered, it was the op ending in GS/buds favor (wiping out all poses) that was what mattered.

And on a DJ/Zapa note, Zapa will be an interesting leader, here's hoping he gets things turned around.  I think Darius had several strokes of very good fortune and doesn't deserve a lot of the credit he got, especially since he didn't fix a lot of the root problems in goonswarm.

[Sir T]

I believe a lot of it has to do with PL being so much more effective this time around than last year (much higher numbers, same great FCs),

Sorry PL, were not around yesterday when Kenny got utterly hammered, aside from the morning when they sent all of 4 bs to shoot a pos with us, who then left. You cant pin bob sucking on them.

That said, PL are, of course, very very good.

[trevorreznik]

well one of their (pl's) titans was there so I just figured it was one of their FCs running the show, but then again my experiences with the NC are a year old, so maybe they've gotten better on their end.  regardless, gkc is getting beaten in their own prime by goon euros + nc + pl which is pretty sad considering the numbers gkc has to draw upon. 

[amiable]

Good DD indeed! Any GS titans involved this time? Can't load the killboard.

Titans are ruining this god-damn game.

yo hey i agree with you!  maybe once this war is done we'll see less of this, since critical titan mass (3-4 titans) won't be reached as easily without big coalitions, but by that time there will just be more built :I

No what you will see is a race by everyone ot build as many Titans as possible, because now the effect of multiple Titans has become blindingly obvious.  Meanwhile idiots from your alliance are arguing over on Scrapheap that DD don't phase "harden vets."  If so, "hardened vets" are complete morons.  Its such a terrible mechanic I don't even no where to begin but hey :CCP:.

[rand]

I believe a lot of it has to do with PL being so much more effective this time around than last year (much higher numbers, same great FCs),

Sorry PL, were not around yesterday when Kenny got utterly hammered, aside from the morning when they sent all of 4 bs to shoot a pos with us, who then left. You cant pin bob sucking on them.

One of the doomsdays was fired by Shadoo's titan alt.

[WindupAtheist]

I've never played Eve, but I know more about it than I really ought to, and I was thinking about this titan business. What if they added a new ship to the game, comparable in size and expense to a titan, the express purpose of which would be to destroy a titan far more quickly than a normal fleet could? These titan-killers would be largely useless against lesser ships, but could also very quickly kill each other.

[Pax]

I've never played Eve, but I know more about it than I really ought to, and I was thinking about this titan business. What if they added a new ship to the game, comparable in size and expense to a titan, the express purpose of which would be to destroy a titan far more quickly than a normal fleet could? These titan-killers would be largely useless against lesser ships, but could also very quickly kill each other.

A simple way to do this without making a all new ship class would be to make the doomsday device a scripted weapon.

Meaning, unscripted it would still do AOE damage and scripted it would do focused damage to a single ship.

Hullo thar, titan slugfests 

[WindupAtheist]

That's a good idea too, though part of what I was thinking about was encouraging large alliances to build fewer titans by creating the necessity for them to build a certain proportion of titan-killers as well. Titan-killers which would be essentially useless when fighting scrappy underdogs with no titans of their own.

[Pezzle]

This does not take into account how Eve combat actually works.  Introducing a Titan killer does not fix the broken Titan.  Broken Titans are an extension of Broken cap ships.  Cap ships are broken because sov warfare has significant flaws.  Mass combat itself is also broken.  This broken mass combat was the reason Titans were made in the first place.  

I hate Titans.  They remain a terrible idea.  Since CCP lacked the courage to remove them entirely we are stuck with them.  Adding another ship class to combat a broken ship is not the solution.  Adding a script is not a solution.  As they stand the only reason Titans would end up in script use situations would be mistakes or traps.  Because of the DD (and bridging) Titans are not front line ships.  

Adjust sov warfare by making it less tower centric.  Add reasons for groups to control and/or develop smaller spaces.  Remove Titans or at least make them what they should have been in the first place.  Stations that can be moved and provide other benefits to combat forces

[Murgos]

Yeah, I think the best solution for Titans is to turn them into pure support vessels and remove any pretense at offense.

Basically mobile stations but with command bonuses and the ability to jump portal.  Repair facilities, clone facilities, fitting facilities and HUEG hangar bay.

You will want to have one or two in a system where fighting is going on for the bonuses and so that your pilots who lost ships can get right back into the battle even if you don't own the station.  They'll still be worth the huge price tag but won't break the game.

[Jayce]

Yeah, I think the best solution for Titans is to turn them into pure support vessels and remove any pretense at offense.

Basically mobile stations but with command bonuses and the ability to jump portal.  Repair facilities, clone facilities, fitting facilities and HUEG hangar bay.

You will want to have one or two in a system where fighting is going on for the bonuses and so that your pilots who lost ships can get right back into the battle even if you don't own the station.  They'll still be worth the huge price tag but won't break the game.

I don't like the mobile station idea either.  With the proliferation of titans, and the ability to hide in POS shields, they would just increase defender advantage (in sov3 systems under cynojammers) and also help remove a key mechanic of EVE fleet warfare: the inability to quickly jump back into combat after being killed.

To be honest I don't know why everyone is butthurt about them anyway.  It's reasonable to DD tank even cruiser sized ships as necessary (hictors), so it's not an IWIN button.  And any time a titan is used in combat, massive amounts of effort are put at risk.  Many alliances take days or weeks to recover the morale hit of losing a titan.  In general there is a non-terrible risk/reward ratio there.

Maybe they favor large spaceholding 0.0 alliances, but there are plenty of other factors that favor them, so removing titans wouldn't make a dent in that problem.

[Pezzle]

How silly of me.  It is perfectly reasonable that X number of players(hundreds at a time) have to alter ships because some guy is flying a huge push button receive bacon mobile.  It is also reasonable that mass combat has devolved into sides trying to trick each other into prime DD spots.  How many combats have simply not happened because of Titan presence/threat?  This is not about a cruiser tanking a DD.  That is just part of it.  Titans mangled warfare.  The more Titans there are, the more mangled it gets.

[Murgos]

I don't like the mobile station idea either.  With the proliferation of titans, and the ability to hide in POS shields, they would just increase defender advantage (in sov3 systems under cynojammers) and also help remove a key mechanic of EVE fleet warfare: the inability to quickly jump back into combat after being killed.

Sorry for thinking that increasing the pace of combat a bit might help the game.

Anywho - the problem isn't 1 Titan, the problem is 4+ Titans.

[trevorreznik]

the problem is, has been, and will remain, doomsdays.  remove those, then boost titans later. 

I essentially gave up on EVE (i'll still play now and then but not in a dedicated manner) when I saw CCP redo the doomsday graphics, which signified to me that they had no intention at all of removing them.

[amiable]

How silly of me.  It is perfectly reasonable that X number of players(hundreds at a time) have to alter ships because some guy is flying a huge push button receive bacon mobile.  It is also reasonable that mass combat has devolved into sides trying to trick each other into prime DD spots.  How many combats have simply not happened because of Titan presence/threat?  This is not about a cruiser tanking a DD.  That is just part of it.  Titans mangled warfare.  The more Titans there are, the more mangled it gets.

this this a thousand times this.  We and our enemies have hundreds of ship do nothing and sit around for literally HOURS because of threat/to set up DD.  Creating a game mechanic designed to bore your opponent into submission is absurd.

Also on "mobile station."  A huge hangar/clone be would be useful in assualts if you were 1 jump away you do not HAVE to be in the same system.

[Jayce]

Sorry for thinking that increasing the pace of combat a bit might help the game.

If you want fast-paced, back into the action combat, play WoW battlegrounds.  This is not a troll - different games do different things well.  One of the keys to making fleet numbers matter, and survival be important, is to make it difficult to get back into the battle.

I know there are other factors at play (fitted ships available, isk) but a one-strike-you're-out rule is important to PvP with consequence.

[Slayerik]

What about damage based on range of the doomsday? Max range would pop frigs/untanked cruisers  - Mid range: HACs  Close range - BSes..... not sure if that would change things a ton, but making them at least man up and tango would be kinda cool. Fleets would need to be split up and shit. I dont know....

[Murgos]

If you want fast-paced, back into the action combat, play WoW battlegrounds.  This is not a troll - different games do different things well.  One of the keys to making fleet numbers matter, and survival be important, is to make it difficult to get back into the battle.

I know there are other factors at play (fitted ships available, isk) but a one-strike-you're-out rule is important to PvP with consequence.

I think that reserves and logistics should count toward a battles outcome.  Not just who can put the most pilots on the field but who can maintain their pilots in the field.  Combat at the alliance level then becomes more strategic without really sacrificing anything at the tactical level.

But, I'm not really that attached to the idea, it was just a suggestion for a way to get rid of the DD but still have Titans be a valuable strategic asset near or on a battlefield so that they get risked at least a minimal amount.

[Goumindong]

I know there are other factors at play (fitted ships available, isk) but a one-strike-you're-out rule is important to PvP with consequence.

Bullshit.

I don't like the mobile station idea either.  With the proliferation of titans, and the ability to hide in POS shields, they would just increase defender advantage (in sov3 systems under cynojammers) and also help remove a key mechanic of EVE fleet warfare: the inability to quickly jump back into combat after being killed.

The advantage of the defender is that he can get bak into combat after being killed speedily. His stations are close and he can get a new ship faster than the other guys. If you even this out with titans making it easy to bring ships to the front lines[which they fucking do anyway because of jump bridges] that does not give defenders another advantage.

What gives defenders an advantage is when you can take 4 fucking ships and essentially say "you can on longer assault this position no matter how many forces you have, everyone who is not in a dreadnought or carrier might as well just go home now".

It reduces the amount of PvP and is a massive advantage for the defenders [if they have titans]

[Strazos]

No, it's not bullshit. Ever try world PvP in WoW? It's retarded because there are no real consequences to losing or death, and you just respawn closeby so you can come sneak up on the guy who killed you.

If you actually Lose something when you die, and it takes time to get back, you have to actually think about How you fight, and if it's worth possible losses.

[MahrinSkel]

One things Titans do is make decisive battles happen.  Either through use of their DD's, or through their loss.  Imagine what a slow indecisive grind things would be without them (was a time, not that long ago, that it took months to capture or fail to capture a single station from a determined defender).

--Dave

[Pezzle]

The only time Titans have a substantial hastening effect on sov is when one side fields them and another cannot/does not (hasten the inevitable).  Bottom line, Titans do not make the game less grind or less blob.  All of the supposed benefits of current titans could be achieved with thinking outside the standard bigger bigger more bling cost manifesto that so many games fall into.

[Goumindong]

No, it's not bullshit. Ever try world PvP in WoW? It's retarded because there are no real consequences to losing or death, and you just respawn closeby so you can come sneak up on the guy who killed you.

If you actually Lose something when you die, and it takes time to get back, you have to actually think about How you fight, and if it's worth possible losses.

I am not sure what WoW has to do with "push butan the entire other side dies" or "it takes you less time go get another ship, that you still had to pay for and fit".

now, if you've got something that isn't strawman, i'd love to hear it.

[Endie]

If we get rid of titans we'll need to come up with another sink for getting rid of high-SP players.

[WindupAtheist]

another sink for getting rid of high-SP players.

Titan-killer pilots. 

[Murgos]

Endie is referring to the habit of High SP players to get a Titan and then no longer play Eve.

[eldaec]

Would you play EVE if your character's primary role was to log on, be bumped all to fuck around a pos, then teleport a bunch of whiny twats to a battle 5 light years away from where you will ever be, before immediately logging off?

[Thrawn]

Would you play EVE if your character's primary role was to log on, be bumped all to fuck around a pos, then teleport a bunch of whiny twats to a battle 5 light years away from where you will ever be, before immediately logging off?

Would depend how upset people get if I accidently DD instead of opening a bridge when they get TOO whiney because that idea sounds like fun.

[IainC]

Instead of the DD being a very large and powerful smartbomb, have it work like a very large and powerful shotgun blast - with a pattern. Anything with a sig radius smaller than a BC will probably not get hit, battleships will likely take a chunk of damage and caps will take several hits.

The titan still remains a vital weapon in very large fleet engagements but it doesn't instantly negate the entire enemy subcap fleet and, crucially, still requires fleet support of it's own.