The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short.

[Krakrok]

The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short.

About ~30 years late. Or the more things change the more they stay the same.

http://www.safestuff.com/atariart15_small.jpg

[doubleplus]

Wow, blast from the past. Put one of the new girls in that outfit, please.

[Calantus]

My annoyance mostly stems from the fact that it's useless advertising. I mean, what are they advertising? Ubisoft? What the hell does that accomplish? Who buys based on publisher? So all they really get is a bunch of girls to drag along to release events/tournaments, and who can mention their games in blogs. What a waste of time and money. I could have been used to try and lure more females into gaming, but instead it's used to market to teenage boys *Yawn*. Sending out good free stuff to sites that people already visit would do half of that. And the tournaments/release events? I can't see how just putting up big cash prizes wouldn't do the same for attendance and attention.

And the Black Isle reference was a low blow. No joke, but just 2 days ago I re-installed Planescape: Torment and was playing it only 10 minutes ago. And from memory there was no sequal because of low sales. So yeah, I get your point.

[Moroni]

More people than you would think purchase based on publisher. There are a lot of star fuckers out there who care about lead developers. I have still yet to figure out why people do that.

[Calantus]

More people than you would think purchase based on publisher. There are a lot of star fuckers out there who care about lead developers. I have still yet to figure out why people do that.

I added the bold for your convenience.

I buy certain developers. Blizzard for instance. Insomniac. Plus a few others, but never a publisher.

[Dark Vengeance]

The problem is that it's assembling a clan of girl gamers, based primarily on their looks. IIRC, Sachant applied to be part of the FragDolls, and was rejected because she is not "OMG HAWT GRRL GAMER".

Moreover, they were trying to pass themselves off as just a regular gaming clan, and spouting opinions about various games. As it turns out, they tend to fancy UbiSoft games....and lo and behold, they are sponsored by Ubi.

Not every woman who games is a thin 21 year old sorority chick with a babydoll t-shirt and stripper gloves. It is insulting to women that a group assembled supposedly to "promote women in gaming" perpetuates the shallow fantasies of most male gamers, while being largely misrepresentative of female gamers. Moreover, a giant "fuck you" to Ubi for using the FragDolls as a device for "marketing to our pants".

You want to put together a group of top female FPS players? GREAT. Use a real all-girl clan, or assemble a group based on their gaming prowess instead of their cup size. And promote them the same damn way....yes, even the fat chick with glasses, braces, and adult acne.

Of course there is no problem with it from the FragDoll's perspective....except for that little thing called ethics and self-respect. Looking at a collection of pictures and saying "gee, all of my clanmates are skinny, attractive, young girls...most female gamers don't look like this" might just clue you in that you aren't being respected for your gaming ability, you're just another piece of meat for gaming dorks to drool over....a video game nerd version of Vanna fucking White.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[plangent]

They should have hired Asia Carrerra instead.  She's a gamer.

[Azaroth]

What's the fuss about?

They're not even that hot.

And no, I didn't read the thread. This illustrates how much I give a shit.

[stray]

Personally, I don't find them all that, so if this was meant to be some marketing effort with super hot girls, then Ubi failed. They should have just hired booth babes if that's all this was supposed to be.

I think the Frag Dollz "look" is about as authentic as it comes, short of grossing me out (adult acne? no thx). I'm not saying they're ugly or anything, just pretty, but in a geeky sort of way (well, Brooklyn is the only exception).

[Calantus]

The odds of them being even as hot/pretty/whatever as they are by accident would be pretty low. Not impossible mind, just not very likely. Don't believe me? Look around your office tomorrow or any gathering of normal people and most likely there will be a few people that don't meet the fragdolls standard. You might not even see one up to the standard (like in my office).

[HaemishM]

The problem is that it's assembling a clan of girl gamers, based primarily on their looks. IIRC, Sachant applied to be part of the FragDolls, and was rejected because she is not "OMG HAWT GRRL GAMER".

Based on the picture she put as her icon on Corp, I'd take Sachant on looks over any of the FragDolls. But that's just me.

And Asia Carrera would be a much better spokesperson, since gamer geeks have heard of her, she's a good gamer, and she's very fucking intelligent. But I suppose they got scared off by the OMGOSHREALPR0N!

[Shockeye]

Based on the picture she put as her icon on Corp, I'd take Sachant on looks over any of the FragDolls. But that's just me.

I'd take any of the FragDolls over Sachant if they could include an index in any strategy guide they write.

[geldonyetich]

Cute girls who share my gaming interest are a good thing.   Computer addict that I am, an understanding of computer game addiction would be an obvious neccessity in a significient others.

Cute girls who share my gaming interest (or pretend to) assembled by a manipulative bastard under the pure intent of picking my pocket are a bad thing.  Get your hands off my wallet, you dastardly digital succubi!

Ah well, I'd be robbing the cradle to be interested in those high school aged tarts anyway.   For that matter, lusting after them would be akin to going after <insert rockette name here>.   Sure, I had a chance to pick them up, but they're just so possessive - Britney Spears won't stop calling me.   Image worship is even more heinous than those that make it possible.

[Resvrgam]

What Haemish said...

I completely agree.

As a guy, I'm not really bothered by more jugs and sexy women thrown in my face trying to whore some stupid product or another...

As for the women I know who actually play games are already in adversity by having to pretend they're guys in FPS games due to constant vaginal references and "ASL, Baby?", it's another blow against the team:

Come see our E3 Booth babes year-round.

So, in essence, now many women are being held to these MTV-styled softcores showing us their mid-riffs standards.

Again, I'm a bloke: I don't mind boobs attached to selling products (loved the HBO documentary about that in Atlantic City) but: is this what we're trying to promote this industry as?  "Fat/Ugly chicks need not apply."

[geldonyetich]

I'm not so sure that "As a guy, I'm not offended" is the universal you make it out to be.  Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of corperate America trying to get it's hooks in my wallet through my labito.   Can't even turn on the television these days without being flashed with impossibly proportioned women geared specifically at prodding my man-mind towards the gates of capitalistic bounty.   I'll take that anti-viagra about now.

[Dark Vengeance]

I'm not so sure that "As a guy, I'm not offended" is the universal you make it out to be.  Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of corperate America trying to get it's hooks in my wallet through my labito.   Can't even turn on the television these days without being flashed with impossibly proportioned women geared specifically at prodding my man-mind towards the gates of capitalistic bounty.   I'll take that anti-viagra about now.

Sex sells. They tell you that literally on day one of an advertising course. The industry is driven by Freud...sex and death. And it's been like this for decades. Nice to see you're starting to pick up on it.

Btw, as an FYI, it's LIBIDO and CORPORATE. Spell check can be your friend.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[geldonyetich]

Honestly Dark Vengeance, spell check is for you hard working yuppies, not us slacking college white trash.   You'd think your repeated reminders of our status differences would have proved a mnemonic device for you to remember that.

As for sex sells, yes I know that.   However, oddball that I am, I'm the type to ask if perhaps the ends do not justify the means?   Although, being a sales exec, I could see how it may look like I'm spitting blasphemy over here.   $$$ > All, right?   Certainly if you want to stay employed in that line of work.

[SirBruce]

Fragdolls were on CNN today.  The were up-front about their Ubisoft connection.

Bruce

[Dark Vengeance]

Honestly Dark Vengence, spell check is for you hard working yuppies, not us slacking college white trash.   You'd think your telling me that so many times would have proved a mnemonic device for you to remember that.

I just wasn't sure you were aware of the proper spelling of either word, or that you were even spelling them incorrectly.

As for sex sells, yes I know that.   However, oddball that I am, I'm the type to ask if perhaps the ends to not justify the means?

It's not your decision....it's the decision of the company that is doing the ad.

Quite frankly, the universaility you apply to "as a man, I'm not offended" proves that the end does justify the means. The FragDolls are a marketing tactic aimed squarely at us and other gamers like us. Some folks may indeed be enticed into buyng products pimped by the Dolls, and even the most offended of us aren't likely to boycott a quality title over this.

But knowing where your line of thought goes, you need a reality check on this subject. People advertise this way because it is shown to be effective. Find a method that is more effective, and then you can go on a moral crusade to clean up and revolutionize the advertising industry.

Although, being a sales exec, I could see how it may look like I'm spitting blasphemy over here.   $$$ > All, right?   Certainly if you want to stay employed in that line of work.

I'm a sales analyst...my job is about understanding the market, not the market understanding my company. Our company is B2B, not consumer sales....so the advertising tends to be a bit different. Additionally, since we are a distributor, the advertising done by manufacturers tends to drive brand recognition...not that we even want our customers to tie our company name to a specific line of equipment anyway. Our sales reps go out into the field and use a consultative approach...our entire strategy is about getting away from pushing 'the boxes' and being focused on customized solutions based on the needs of each client.

You're not spitting blashphemy, just a decided lack of business savvy....and a clear point that you understand very little about me, what I do, or the fields of advertising, marketing, and sales in general. The part that makes you ignorant enough to be dangerous is that you THINK you know what you're talking about, but you don't.

Shit, sales is the business equivalent to poker. It's a skill. The game of sales itself doesn't change that much based on product....that's why you hear phrases like 'he could sell ice to an eskimo'. The nice part about having a career in sales is that talented sales professionals are literally ALWAYS in demand.

You just have to get it through your head that most of the guys you talk to at Best Buy, or JC Penny, or EB are not sales professionals. They are glorified clerks. Very few of them have any kind of actual sales training or understanding of the craft.

In any case, I don't see you making much of a point beyond 'capitalism caters to the LCD, and is thus immoral'. Which is a subject best continued via PM or in the politics forum.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[geldonyetich]

I just wasn't sure you were aware of the proper spelling of either word, or that you were even spelling them incorrectly.

Really?  When you show up on the thread replying to me, I've grown to expect most of what you say to be a thinly veiled attack.   If that wasn't the case this time, you have my apoligies.

I wasn't really bothering to check my spelling there, but I think that I'd have known I was spelling those incorrectly if I were paying attention.   I'm not sure why so many people are getting on my case about spelling  lately.   If yuo cna mak ths otu wy iz x-act spelng rely necesary?   It's not like I'm trying to publish this or something.

Quite frankly, the universaility you apply to "as a man, I'm not offended" proves that the end does justify the means.

Actually, I was saying that wasn't a universal.  The previous poster is where the "as a man, I'm not an offended" statement came from.

But knowing where your line of thought goes, you need a reality check on this subject. People advertise this way because it is shown to be effective. Find a method that is more effective, and then you can go on a moral crusade to clean up and revolutionize the advertising industry

That's more or less the long and short of it, I know.   Advertisers... hell, just about everybody sticks to what works.   However, from an environmental standpoint, just because a method of assuring consumption works does not mean it'll have the best long term environmental effects.   Of course, I'm talking about pollution of the mental state of the consumers as opposed to a literal environmental impact, but I found it a good analogy for effective consumption vrs long term effects.   Sex sells being the quickest way to profit?  So is tossing garbage straight into the ocean.

So, in your belief, does the advertising medium mirroring society, is society mirroring the advertising medium, or both?

[Dark Vengeance]

If yuo cna mak ths otu wy iz x-act spelng rely necesary?   It's not like I'm trying to publish this or something.

Because when you are trying to communicate with others, it's just good form to try and make yourself as understandable as possible.

Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood.

Actually, I was saying that wasn't a universal.  The previous poster is where the "as a man, I'm not an offended" statement came from.

Point taken. But if your only objection to them is the nature of advertising itself, you don't so much object to the FragDolls as you do advertising and capitalism in general (again, not subjects appropriate for this thread).

However, from an environmental standpoint, just because a method of assuring consumption works does not mean it'll have the best long term environmental effects.   Of course, I'm talking about pollution of the mental state of the consumers as opposed to a literal environmental impact.

With all due respect, if you insist on drinking the bong water, gargle and spit...don't swallow. Choose whatever crayon you want to color the rhetoric...you're just repeating "advertising caters to the LCD and is thus immoral". Which is one step removed from saying the same about capitalism (yet again, a line of discussion not suited for this thread).

This type of advertising works because of the base motivations of mankind...avoid pain, pursue pleasure. Advertising doesn't corrupt mankind, it simply plays our base instincts like Hendrix with a Stratocaster.

So, in your belief, does the advertising medium mirroring society, is society mirroring the advertising medium, or both?

Most people don't care enough to tune in (mentally) and watch someone do a Ben Stein impression and lay out a logical case for why their product is superior to other products of its type. They've got 30 to 60 seconds to get your attention, educate you about the product, and make you want the product...making it entertaining is secondary. If they don't do part 1 or 3, they fail....advertising is first and foremost about demand generation, if you don't watch the message or ultimately want the product, it's fodder.

We tend to block out advertising consciously anyway...even with "ZAP BOOM POW BUY THIS PRODUCT AND YOU'LL BE AN IMMORTAL SEX GOD" messages. It's doing what is most effective.

As to the reflection stuff, you're talking about an invention of man, used by man, to sell stuff to man, by playing on the weaknesses of man. The answer to your question is that it's two mirrors pointed directly at each other....a reflection of a reflection of a reflection of a reflection and so on. And indeed, man is in there somewhere. Waving. He says "hi".

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[geldonyetich]

then seek to be understood.

A weak point of mine, to be sure.   However, I wager my issue with being understood far transcends spelling alone.   (Though perhaps the reason, not wanting to invest too much effort in a largely recreational post, is the same.)

But if your only objection to them is the nature of advertising itself, you don't so much object to the FragDolls as you do advertising and capitalism in general (again, not subjects appropriate for this thread).

I don't like Fragdolls because I don't approve of the lack of ethics involved in the advertising methodology.   You may not agree with my reasoning, but it doesn't make it off-topic.

As to the reflection stuff, you're talking about an invention of man, used by man, to sell stuff to man, by playing on the weaknesses of man. The answer to your question is that it's two mirrors pointed directly at each other....a reflection of a reflection of a reflection of a reflection and so on. And indeed, man is in there somewhere. Waving. He says "hi".

So if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're saying that although advertisements reflect mankind, and mankind emulates (reflects) advertisements, it's your belief that there's no longlasting reprocussions of this occuring.

Interesting.  Well, I didn't expect to resolve the whole "the media's ethical influence on mankind" issue in one post.

[Dark Vengeance]

I don't like Fragdolls because I don't approve of the lack of ethics involved in the advertising methodology.   You may not agree with my reasoning, but it doesn't make it off-topic.

If your objection to the FragDolls is as simple as "I find that advertising and capitalism are inherently immoral" it is very close indeed to being off-topic. This thread isn't here to decry the evils of capitalism or advertising, which happens to include the FragDolls....it's to talk specifically about the FragDolls case itself.

So if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're saying that although advertisements reflect mankind, and mankind emulates (reflects) advertisements, it's your belief that there's no longlasting reprocussions of this occuring.

No. You're reading way too much into it. What I'm saying is that everything mankind does reflects upon mankind. As well, by being human what we do will reflect our being human.

The line of conversation in bringing us here isn't too far removed from "does art imitate life, or the opposite". But this is ADVERTISING. Advertising isn't making savvy social commentary or detailing the struggle of the human condition....IT IS SAYING THAT FROSTED LUCKY CHARMS ARE MAGICALLY DELICIOUS.

Is advertising corrupting mankind? No. MANKIND is corrupting mankind, just as it has for centuries. Advertising doesn't change that, it just sets it to music and 'corrupts' people to the tune of "Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer weiner".

Bring the noise.
Cheers...............

[Moroni]

My god. It is like two retarded babies play fighting.

[geldonyetich]

That from a guy who calls himself Moroni.   I suppose the "takes one to know one" clause might apply.

This thread isn't here to decry the evils of capitalism or advertising, which happens to include the FragDolls....it's to talk specifically about the FragDolls case itself.

So what, I can't supply my opinion about FragDolls without it becoming off topic all of a sudden?  Bah, whatever.

Is advertising corrupting mankind? No. MANKIND is corrupting mankind, just as it has for centuries. Advertising doesn't change that, it just sets it to music and 'corrupts' people to the tune of "Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer weiner".

Much on the same tangent as the "guns don't kill people, people don't kill people" angle, I see.  Heck, we can be here all night if that's the stance you're taking.  

Peaceniks like myself might argue that while guns may not be responsible for the motivation they do provide an easier means in which dark agendas can be carried out.   Gravitate that to advertisements and you have my argument there - just because mankind tends to corrupt mankind does not justify faster means in doing so by removing ethical limitations from advertising. To say otherwise is to say that corruption doesn’t need to be slowed.    Generating a counterargument to this is probably as easy as recycling an anti-gun control arugment, so I don't honestly expect to "win" here - the gun control debate is far from settled and it's been through biger minds than ours.

Is Fragdolls really all that heinous?  Well, from a hardcore gamer's perspective, cheesecake never did make a good additive to gaming, so there is that.   Also, depicting game designers as pop idols proved an ugly little chapter in gaming history, and I can't see that depicting female gamers as pop idols going much better.   Those are two new reasons on top of my already mentioned dislike of degrading advertisement methodology.   Personally, the whole thing seems to insult gamer’s intelligence, unless maybe you’re lady who considers them Girl Power conductors.   From a guy's perspective it mostly works on the libido angle, which is one angle I'm getting tired of being attacked on.

(Ooh, look, I see I have a new subtitle.   I've apparently been upgraded from one lacking a spine to a homosexual essense distributor.   If I keep this up, I might graduate to pool boy or Vice President Quayle.

If you guys were being fair, you'd give DV a "Helps Geldonyetich fag up every thread he posts in" subtitle.   Really, I couldn't have done it without him and you should know it.   I (mostly) have stopped posting on the Political forum altogether and he chases me over here.  I mean, WTF?  All he's basically doing is knitpicking until I bore everyone to tears explaining my posiiton.  That wasn't my idea, honest.)

[SirBruce]

That from a guy who calls himself Moroni.   I suppose the "takes one to know one" clause might apply.

Er, I suspect his name is a reference to Moroni of the Book of Mormon, not some play upon the word "moron".

Bruce

[geldonyetich]

Whoops, once again I've blundered over the toes of organized religion, did I?   Honestly, I could be serving several consecutive terms of hell for all my social faux pas.    It might even be spilling over from the afterlife into the now.   That would certainly explain why many of my threads end up like this, and why I apparently have an infernally inspired motivation to try posting here anyway.   The guy who has to roll a rock uphill for all eternity got off easy.

[Moroni]

Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste.

[Joe]

The guy who has to roll a rock uphill for all eternity got off easy.

That "guy" would be Sisyphus.

[geldonyetich]

Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste.

I wasn't really trying very hard to make fun of you, you know.   I can't really see the point; I don't need the ego gratification of needlessly tearing into others.   That's probably why I don't get along very well with some of you wretches.

You have my apologies if I insulted you.  I honestly had no idea who Moroni was when I posted that.

Listen guys, I've only been fagging up threads out of self defence.  You've got an issue with me personally, even a simple grammar or spelling correction, send me a private message or something.

[Calantus]

What was this topic about again? I've forgotten.

[Margalis]

Jesus, Geldon and DV need to star together in some reality show, that would rule. Maybe "The Real Bosom Buddies."

And yes, it is like retarded babies, but retarded babies have an excuse.

[geldonyetich]

Meh, the topic was pretty much spent by the time I got here anyway.   The Fragdolls aren't exactly an encyclopedia of meaningful gaming commentary.   Sirbruces mentioning the Fragdoll's showing up on CNN, and Soukyan's mention of the Blizzard hosted parody, Fragdoodz, generated nil replies.  I'd say that a discusion over what is ethical in advertising was just about all that was left.   That might have seemed like something other than a retarded slapfight if it wasn't conducted with claws out, but I guess old habits die hard.

In retribution, I deny you the greatness that is Porco Russo.  You now must endure the dung beetle.

[Dark Vengeance]

Jesus, Geldon and DV need to star together in some reality show, that would rule. Maybe "The Real Bosom Buddies."

And yes, it is like retarded babies, but retarded babies have an excuse.

Hey, he supplied the chair, the rope, the light fixture, the instructions on "How to tie a noose"...all I did was say "you're not actually stupid enough to tie the noose, climb up on the chair, attach the noose to the light fixture, and put it around your neck, are you?"

Sure enough, he was. I was just pointing and laughing. Thanks Moroni, for having the gumption to kick that chair out from under him. Comedy gold.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Ironwood]

Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste.

Am I the only one who feels stupid now, since I assumed it was from 'Johnny Dangerously' ?!

Yeah ?

OK then.

DV, Geld ?  You guys need to learn to share a board with others.