Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Redgiant]

Well...

Cancelled my 31 Cleric.

The game world is pretty and well-done in terms of art and game engine. But Aion has huge unforgiveable-at-least-to-the-wester-market issues:
- The bot and farm thing is just ridiculous. By itself it is annoying enough, but it is a back-breaking straw added to the other issues. It just gives a very bad vibe to the game.
- Getting to 25 just means you will be Abyss roadkill for the next 10+ levels. They need BGs or something to smooth out this cockblock badly. The only people who don't want this are the ones doing the raping. Grats, you win (unsub).
- Grind. Not enough quests, not enough quest XP, too lineaer (but what is there is pretty granted), Abyss not an option since I don't like spending 3/4 of my time ressing, even legions don't seem smart enough to group together to grind and for security. Sick of soloing a cleric (everyone wants healers but don't want ot help the healers level to survive).
- Crafting. Forget it, not worth even mentioning. I particularly hate the way they have hard calculations on periodically skilling up. If you are going to be that blatant about treadmilling, just put an actaual treadmill in the trade areas for us to spin on.

Despite this being a pretty game, I didn't have any problem with cancelling. In EQ, DAoC and WoW, there was just somethign about the world that made me want to stay or at least second-guess my decision to quit. Not Aion, not once.

I wouldn't mind some of the ideas in Aion making their way into the MMO melting pot for the next games developed, but Aion itself is not for me.

Will be interesting to see what if anything they do to further adjust to NA/Euro sensiblities.

[waffel]

Why did people think that the end-game in this would somehow work differently than say, DAoC?

In DAoC, you could go to the frontiers at 25, but you would get crushed by people higher level than you. All a low level would do was basically hide in a corner for increased exp mobs and PvEing.

Aion sounds exact same. And the one thing that helped solve the issue in DAoC was battlegrounds and to some extent darkness falls, which alleviated the boredom of leveling.

[Redgiant]

Why did people think that the end-game in this would somehow work differently than say, DAoC?

In DAoC, you could go to the frontiers at 25, but you would get crushed by people higher level than you. All a low level would do would basically hide in a corner for increased exp mobs and PvEing.

Aion sounds exact same. And the one thing that helped solve the issue in DAoC was battlegrounds and to some extent darkness falls, which alleviated the boredom of leveling.

BGs did more than just help. They made it *the* thing to do for sub-40s.

DF also gave a realm-wide reason to care about the wider world status, and yes for leveling too. Plus it was fun to be involved with the world-wide DF status flip flop even when you were low level.

[tazelbain]

I don't know why battlegrounds for 1-40 would be controversial.

No BG's or arenas thx

No grinding to PvP thx.

At least WAR/AoC tried to innovate in some parts of their game.  Aion is just another gloss coat paint over the same trash.

[Nebu]

Some observations from years in pvp MMO's (all of which has been said by others on f13 over the past x years).

1. Bots will always be an issue in any pvp mmo that requires buff and healing classes.  This is particularly true when the bot enhances leveling.  Anyone that played DAoC will have experienced this in its glory.  

2. If a few classes can heal and dps, everyone will play those classes until nerfed into the ground.  

3. If gold helps you compete in pvp, there will be gold farmers.  LOTS AND LOTS of them.  They will never go away.

4. Players will flow with the path of least resistance, even if it costs more in terms of real $.

5. If a cheat exists that gives an advantage, no matter how small, people will find and use it.  

Bottom line: pvp + advancement will bring out the worst in much of your playerbase unless tightly regulated by a dev team smarter than the subscriber base.  

[Shatter]

I don't know why battlegrounds for 1-40 would be controversial.

No BG's or arenas thx

No grinding to PvP thx.

At least WAR/AoC tried to innovate in some parts of their game.  Aion is just another gloss coat paint over the same trash.

They also proved that innovation cant carry a game if the rest of the game is sh*t. 

[Redgiant]

I don't know why battlegrounds for 1-40 would be controversial.

No BG's or arenas thx

Btw, the BGs I would like are more of the DAoC nature. They are themselves persistent areas that don't just end like some 5-minute WAR scenario. it is a 24x7 mosh pit of violence for a designated band of levels (teens, 20s 30s, ...). Anyone can enter, in any numbers, as long as they are in the level band. Tie control of all the BGs to something like a dungeon's access ... instant Thidranki.

Either make a narrower level bands, or add some sort of -3 sidekicking to elevate anyone who shoudl be in a level band to a disadvantaged-but-competitive level.

[Simond]

I don't know why battlegrounds for 1-40 would be controversial.

Takes people out of world pvp.  See WAR/DAoC/etc.

World PvP does not work in dikus, though, and probably never will.

[Falconeer]

It works, just not for everyone.

It's the old PJ Harvey vs Britney Spears debate. Money says PJ Harvey "sucks". I say "sheesh".

[Venkman]

I don't know why battlegrounds for 1-40 would be controversial.

Takes people out of world pvp.  See WAR/DAoC/etc.

World PvP does not work in dikus, though, and probably never will.

This. For PvP to work in a diku, either the players collectively learn to stop caring about the first X levels (SB, DAoC), or you gotta bracket the players into level-appropriate zones (WAR). The first is just boring to tears save the diehards, and the latter still doesn't solve the problem that is players not running into each other. You still need good level/zone design for player funneling, but even there you can't guarantee player density as the playerbase raises the server-wide average level.

So, I contend that mass market diku PvP requires Battlegrounds. And if you want to peddle a game as a solid alternative to WoW because it is different, then that difference needs to be experienced within the first 2 hours or you're sunk. For Aion it doesn't need to be level 1. At least level 10, if not level 8.

As soon as you start focusing resources on compelling PvE content instead of better balancing, incentifying and rewarding PvP, you've already lost to WoW.

[Kageru]

If world PvP could work it would certainly need something more complex than the big killing field Aion seems to be presenting.

Reduce the advantage of level and gear so that even with a disparity there is still some competition. Don't have a system that rewards pure slaughter and kill ratio's but encourages world PvP objectives with a variety of combat and meaningful bonuses for holding them. Don't channel your entire playerbase into a PvP environment where they are fodder. You could combine the last two in that holding an objective gives a "safe" levelling space for your faction.

That said I'm pretty sure these are not design mistakes for Aion. It's designed to have a pile of corpses with some small number of hard-core elite standing triumphant on the top of them. That's why level counts for so much and they want everyone in there generating abyss points for people to reap. Of course why someone not aiming for that elite status would buy the game or continue to log in is a valid question.

[DLRiley]

I don't get the enthusiasm for world pvp. Even assuming you magically fix the 1. leveling problems, 2. gold problems, 3. general exploits, all you have is a lot of players spamming aoes and insane amount of single target damage at each other till the side with the most non dead toonss win. Even assuming you fixed 1,2,3 you have 50 vs 10 battles which aren't fun. Hell 50 vs 50 in most diku's aren't fun, considering you spend 2/3'rds of your time rezzing due to a combination of lag, cc, aoe, and being a melee toon. Even if that is fun, which it is on occasion it is, why would you bet everyone on the server will want to do that 24/7? What happens when you have 300 guys camping a fortress that no one bothers taking because there are 300 guys at that fortress? Why is 75% of any fun achieved only achievable in a guild?

[01101010]

If world PvP could work it would certainly need something more complex than the big killing field Aion seems to be presenting.

Reduce the advantage of level and gear so that even with a disparity there is still some competition. Don't have a system that rewards pure slaughter and kill ratio's but encourages world PvP objectives with a variety of combat and meaningful bonuses for holding them. Don't channel your entire playerbase into a PvP environment where they are fodder. You could combine the last two in that holding an objective gives a "safe" levelling space for your faction.

That said I'm pretty sure these are not design mistakes for Aion. It's designed to have a pile of corpses with some small number of hard-core elite standing triumphant on the top of them. That's why level counts for so much and they want everyone in there generating abyss points for people to reap. Of course why someone not aiming for that elite status would buy the game or continue to log in is a valid question.

But they already have something to normalize the field in place. Your main stats are there and normalize everyone across the board - stat modifiers on equipment tear that all to pieces. If they could just activate the normalization zone in the abyss... hell just make it the lower abyss, then drop the level to get there to 20 and open rifts up in the tier 2 (gasp!) zone of Vertonan (sp?) and Altgard, then you could theoretically start PvPing at lvl 10 with level differences but rare encounters (which introduces problems, but fuck... baby steps) then hit 20 and you are off. Granted it does not provide a ton of incentive to gain levels since the stats are normalized, but your abilities would grow over time. I dunno, but I do know, that once all those kids dawdling around in the BC/Krall areas start advancing into the abyss, there is going to be holy hell to pay. Of course, NC Soft will never hear it unless its via twitter since their "official" forums are constructed with twigs and spit - perhaps by design as an afterthought and not for the actual resource.

[Count Nerfedalot]

If you see any suspicious player activity, report it. To quickly report these players, use the /AutoReportHunting feature by typing /AutoReportHunting while a suspicious character is targeted. It’s important to note that this system will actually begin to penalize players after they’ve been reported multiple times. The more of you that use this system—the more effective it will become.

Am I the only one that noticed the awesome potential for misuse this opens up?  Anyone want to lay odds on how long before roving gangs of anti-botters start turning this gun on anyone they please, just for giggles?  And what will Goons do with this?  Or the botters for that matter, turning the weapon on the unfortunate player who wanders into "their" farming spot? 

  indeed

[tmp]

This. For PvP to work in a diku, either the players collectively learn to stop caring about the first X levels (SB, DAoC), or you gotta bracket the players into level-appropriate zones (WAR).

Obligatory EVE counter

No, really. EVE advancement model isn't that much different from a 'flat' DIKU with it's 5% more omph per level. But people aren't crying for separate zones for tech.2 gangs and the guys in Rifters. It shows imo the answer isn't to have players put in separate brackets but rather to stop making such artificial brackets in the first place. There is no good PvP reason why 5 levels of difference should make a player impossible to touch and the lower level player nothinig but a roadkill in progress. And even the PvE reasons for that are questionable.

[Checkers]

So, I contend that mass market diku PvP requires Battlegrounds.

Mass market diku, definitely.  I didn't always agree with that notion, but I certainly do now.

I wish that more developers would stop dreaming of multi-million subs and start making PvP games specifically tailored for fans of Eve, Lineage, etc.  Good games, too (re: not Darkfall). It goes without saying that there are too many people in the MMORPG industry who believe that if you're not the richest man in the room, you're a bum.  

What ultimately caused me to quit Aion was an uninspired endgame, which in turn made the grind and extremely linear environment and leveling process not worth anything.  What is the point of all that effort if your enemies are dictated by pre-determined factions?  Why not just load up your favourite fps?  

I can't believe I'm once again looking to L2 for my PvP fix.

[DLRiley]

This. For PvP to work in a diku, either the players collectively learn to stop caring about the first X levels (SB, DAoC), or you gotta bracket the players into level-appropriate zones (WAR).

Obligatory EVE counter

No, really. EVE advancement model isn't that much different from a 'flat' DIKU with it's 5% more omph per level. But people aren't crying for separate zones for tech.2 gangs and the guys in Rifters. It shows imo the answer isn't to have players put in separate brackets but rather to stop making such artificial brackets in the first place. There is no good PvP reason why 5 levels of difference should make a player impossible to touch and the lower level player nothinig but a roadkill in progress. And even the PvE reasons for that are questionable.

EVE has death penalty which can quickly evolve into largest gold sink ever invented for most casual players. EVE has safe zones. Roaming in EVE is a bad idea, unless you have a lot of money to replace a lot of cheap ships. Safe zone will make wolves cry tears in a diku. Death penalty will see about 1% of your player population roaming in guilds over the barren pvp areas. Not friendly to roaming usually cuts out casuals which are 99% of people interested in pvp who aren't foaming from the mouth. The only reason EvE doesn't need to have brackets is because Empire is the end game for most of the player base and roaming low sec is done to blow off pve grind. Its been settled a long, long time ago that the pvp zone is for a fraction of the player base, even if it technically accounts for the majority of the game size. Most pvp mmo's shove everyone into the half baked pvp world and laugh at the lord of the flies reenactment only to cry when they bleed subs.

[tmp]

The only reason EvE doesn't need to have brackets is because Empire is the end game for most of the player base and roaming low sec is done to blow off pve grind.

This discussion doesn't touch the "most of the player base" at all -- like you said most of the player base is grinding their rats and couldn't care less about the state of PvP combat.

It is about similar in size, small fraction of players who choose to try something other than the PvE. And this small fraction of people who choose to participate in the PvP in EvE don't demand instanced battlegrounds with brackets to ensure they are able to do anything to the opposing side. While the small fraction of people who choose to participate in the PvP in Aion do demand such brackets, despite having mindset very similar to their EvE counterpart. Your "only reason" ain't ... because all the things you point out about EvE can be very well applied to Aion -- the death penalty, the safe zones and the roaming being bad idea it's all there.

EvE doesn't need brackets because the 'level 5' guy in it can still scramble, shoot and otherwise contribute in a fight against few year old vets. While in more typical diku all he sees is "resist, resist, miss". At which point comes natural question, why bother.

[DLRiley]

The only reason EvE doesn't need to have brackets is because Empire is the end game for most of the player base and roaming low sec is done to blow off pve grind.

This discussion doesn't touch the "most of the player base" at all -- like you said most of the player base is grinding their rats and couldn't care less about the state of PvP combat.

It is about similar in size, small fraction of players who choose to try something other than the PvE. And this small fraction of people who choose to participate in the PvP in EvE don't demand instanced battlegrounds with brackets to ensure they are able to do anything to the opposing side. While the small fraction of people who choose to participate in the PvP in Aion do demand such brackets, despite having mindset very similar to their EvE counterpart. Your "only reason" ain't ... because all the things you point out about EvE can be very well applied to Aion -- the death penalty, the safe zones and the roaming being bad idea it's all there.

EvE doesn't need brackets because the 'level 5' guy in it can still scramble, shoot and otherwise contribute in a fight against few year old vets. While in more typical diku all he sees is "resist, resist, miss". At which point comes natural question, why bother.

And here is where we missunderstand. You chose to leave Empire in EVE, those who chose to leave Empire just happened to be a small fraction of the playerbase. If you chose to stay in Empire you can play the game just find, sure low sec has plenty of resources but risk/reward ratio + your play style will generally determine how involved you are. Which is why they don't bother with brackets. Why have brackets when everyone is running crappy ships anyway? If your flying solo with an expensive ship your probably a pve'er blowing off steam.

In contrast to Aion where there is no choice in Aion, or any pvp diku really. You pve only for a while than suddenly the game decides that the fastest way to progress is through the pvp zones. Even if you really wanted to continue your pve career in the pve areas you will eventually find it counter intuitive despite the fact that going to a pvp zone to level is equally counter intuitive.... There is no 1% of the playerbase goes to the abyss, everyone goes to the abyss. If you haven't after level 25 than you have to eventually. The longer you put it off the slower your progression. 1% of the playerbase might enjoy the abyss, but why would they ask for brackets and bg's? Not having brackets insures that they have fights they know they can win when playing solo, not having BG's mean that everyone who wants to pvp but isn't close to max have to get spawned camped by them.

The people asking for brackets and bg's is because they have to go to the Abyss in order to do anything meaningful.

[Chimpy]

So I logged in to grab my cash from the broker and put more stuff up, and there was some guy in Ranger chat whining about how there were no level 50 asmos around and how he can only 'gank 5 asmos before he gets the curse and gets rolled by a bunch of them'. Apparently he has a 50 assassin and his entire life's goal is to gank other people, and because he cannot gank lowbies he decided to level a toon up to 10 so he could bitch and moan at another entire class.

[nurtsi]

Speaking of griefing. I witnessed  a new way to grief people yesterday:

1. Find any escort quest without a time limit.
2. Start the quest so the bugger starts to follow you.
3. Setup a private shop.

Effectively stops anybody doing that quest.

[Falconeer]

So I logged in to grab my cash from the broker and put more stuff up, and there was some guy in Ranger chat whining about how there were no level 50 asmos around and how he can only 'gank 5 asmos before he gets the curse and gets rolled by a bunch of them'. Apparently he has a 50 assassin and his entire life's goal is to gank other people, and because he cannot gank lowbies he decided to level a toon up to 10 so he could bitch and moan at another entire class.

Curse? What curse?

[Venkman]

This. For PvP to work in a diku, either the players collectively learn to stop caring about the first X levels (SB, DAoC), or you gotta bracket the players into level-appropriate zones (WAR).

Obligatory EVE counter

As DLRiley mentioned, Eve gives you this as a choice, not a requirement. But even that isn't as important a distinction. What really sets Eve apart is that it's one of the only actual "massively multiplayer" games out there, and therefore least representative of the kind of MMOs players actually want en masse. And to be that kind of game is a lot more complicated than the oversized arenas and socialist economies that are the normal linear dikus. So it's complicated, risky, and there is really only one point of reference for success that isn't measured with WoW zeroes.

I hate saying it, but I feel Eve is somewhat irrelevant to discussing how to solve challenges in a PvP diku. It's just that different a game. Some specific features are portable, like mining, running a business, controlling territory. But how those features work is going to be very different once they move from an open world to a linear game.

And that latter bit is already what is being discussed

[tmp]

There is no 1% of the playerbase goes to the abyss, everyone goes to the abyss. If you haven't after level 25 than you have to eventually. The longer you put it off the slower your progression.

You only have to play the game to realize it is false. There is many more people present in the zones other than the Abyss, because they can actually progress faster in places where they don't get squashed like a bug every 10 minutes by a guy 10+ levels above them.

1% of the playerbase might enjoy the abyss, but why would they ask for brackets and bg's? Not having brackets insures that they have fights they know they can win when playing solo, not having BG's mean that everyone who wants to pvp but isn't close to max have to get spawned camped by them.

You just answered your own question.

[LK]

I love critical design failures like that.

[DLRiley]

There is no 1% of the playerbase goes to the abyss, everyone goes to the abyss. If you haven't after level 25 than you have to eventually. The longer you put it off the slower your progression.

You only have to play the game to realize it is false. There is many more people present in the zones other than the Abyss, because they can actually progress faster in places where they don't get squashed like a bug every 10 minutes by a guy 10+ levels above them.

Those many more players have to go to the abyss eventually. Even if you level "faster" when not in the abyss due to not being under constant threat of pk, your still leveling at the pace of a snail, which Aion figures by design can be avoided by just playing in the abyss. In fact this is why the non abyss zones will never get a xp increase. You need a abyss points, which your toon will eventually have to address.

[Redgiant]

They could have done a consentual bracket-like mechanic in the Abyss,without creating distinct BGs per se:

- certain Abyss areas which reduce your level to the area max upon entry. You are told upon approaching said areas what is going to happen.

- max is either 34 or 42 depending on the area

- these areas are controlled by relic/fortress status. The side which controls the status does not get level reduced upon entry to its areas. This essentially makes them defacto home-but-contestable areas to police and hold onto.

This also gives those players who have Mighty Mouse syndrome another venue to "protect the li'l ones" from the other side. I would expect a lot more infiltration action within these areas than the regular rifted zones.

[Threash]

Those many more players have to go to the abyss eventually. Even if you level "faster" when not in the abyss due to not being under constant threat of pk, your still leveling at the pace of a snail,

No, you are not.  At least compared to other dikus, this is by far one of the fastest leveling ones.

[Venkman]

Compared to WoW? That's the most important comparison.

[LK]

I think something we've learned a long time ago is that (Levels That Determine Power) + PvP != Fun.

[tmp]

Those many more players have to go to the abyss eventually. Even if you level "faster" when not in the abyss due to not being under constant threat of pk, your still leveling at the pace of a snail, which Aion figures by design can be avoided by just playing in the abyss. In fact this is why the non abyss zones will never get a xp increase. You need a abyss points, which your toon will eventually have to address.

On this note:

FYI, heard that on Korean test, the XP modifier for mobs has been boosted 4.5x in the new patch. Dunno if true, just thats the word going on in game atm.

(third hand info from fohguild thread but amusing in this context nonetheless)

re: abyss points, they can be gathered at very good pace by running PvE dungeons in Abyss fortresses, in perfect safety. It really helps to actually play the game if one is going to comment on it.

edit: on difference in levelling speed in Abyss and the regular zones... there seems to be ~12% more xp for a kill in the Abyss, compared to kills outside of it. It's a carrot sure but hardly a big one.

[DLRiley]

Don't your side have to actually take the fortress for you to farm the instance inside.

[tmp]

Yes, that's where these small groups actually interested in entering the zone itself come into the picture. The bulk of player base can happily just freeload.

[DLRiley]

Pve content depending on pvp activity is  .

[tmp]

As opposed to PvE content depending on PvE activity?