Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Trippy]

Okay guys cut it out.

[Nissl]

Personally until they evolve the combat beyond auto attack and skill hotbars I'm just not interested at all.  Unless the setting and world and art direction really seem amazing.

I get that perspective. Personally I'm done with WoW, especially how it seems like everything these days is either solo or instanced. TOR and Diablo 3 could easily not come out until 2011, GW2 has had multiple delays and a disturbing lack of info lately, and Mortal Online could be great but could also be a colossal Darkfall-esque fail.

I've watched some of the pvp videos, the combat looks very wooden... I think its even a step back from WoW's diku combat

It's slightly less fluid because of some of the issues with animations needing to finish. Not being able to run during some instant casts and automoving towards target for melee attacks is annoying at first but I actually think of it as a little balancing towards melee given the nature of the abyss. But the animations look good and things are nice and responsive. I eventually stopped playing LOTRO solely because I couldn't take the mushy combat response. This is fine.

Leveling combat on my 17 sorc isn't what I'd call deep but it does require a little more thinking, reaction, and variation in my cast rotation than WoW leveling because the fights are longer, things get resisted pretty often, and I have several intermediate cooldowns that will be up every 2-3 fights.

Having a ranking system where losing takes away points has failed to do anything but foster exploiting, bullshit tactics and avoiding taking any fight you don't think you can win

What's the MMO PVP system of the future, then? That's not meant as a rhetorical question... maybe it would be a productive direction to take this thread. Item loss is going to promote all of the problems you listed even more heavily. Even without point loss you get a lot of the same bs. Look at the old WoW honor grind where you don't lose points. You put in weekly decay so people can someday catch up to the leaders and you have a poopsock race to see who can farm the most BGs per week. I guess the arena ELO system doesn't have that problem but it reduces the game to a series of team deathmatches and I'd rather go play an FPS at that point.

Remember that PVP is not zero-sum until you get to very high ranks. The average joe should be able to progress and get gear. Going for a roughly even fight is going to be worthwhile unless you're 90% geared out and trying to get #1 on the server. That will take months and in the meantime new shiny gear gets introduced. Fortress incentives provide additional reasons to fight.

[Trippy]

Stop putting two spaces after your end of sentence periods. It's messing things up.

[01101010]

Yeah if thats all it takes to get you to play a MMO thats all it takes.  Personally until they evolve the combat beyond auto attack and skill hotbars I'm just not interested at all.  Unless the setting and world and art direction really seem amazing.  A diku clone that gets most of its dna from Lineage and has taken an awful direction with its pvp system?  Doesn't do much for me personally.

Its funny though that I can't even point out how in the history of games having a ranking system where losing takes away points has failed to do anything but foster exploiting, bullshit tactics and avoiding taking any fight you don't think you can win.  I'm all for the olden days of WoW pvp, before the honor system, battlegrounds, battlegroups with the rest of the game designed with pvp in mind.  That is not what this is going to be.  I've watched some of the pvp videos, the combat looks very wooden, much like Lineage and some f2p Korean WoW clones I've played ala Silk Road.  I think its even a step back from WoW's diku combat, even if they did add the z-axis.  Either way though losing points for losing, or hell, having points in general is a fucking stupid idea.

So you are going Elyos Ranger then?

[Koyasha]

That was an interesting read, and while I disagree on some points (like the death system, since from what I've read there is no permanent exp loss, all of it is recoverable, contrary to his claim) I thought it was a relatively accurate assessment overall.

Ever bombarded into a pack of 8 horde in WSG, hoping to just try and take one of them down with you?  Sure, why not, there's no consequences for that kind of reckless behavior.  And after your fourth or fifth time of doing it you realize it's ******* boring, but it's about the only way to spice up the dullness of battlegrounds, because there's just no penalty for dying or losing.

That explains basically why I feel it's necessary to have a death penalty - when there isn't one, people are reckless and charge into battle without thought for their strategic and tactical position.  This, I think, is a big part in why in WoW and other games that have zero pvp death penalty, people charge mindlessly into battle without giving a moment's thought to a plan or strategy.  They instead see an enemy and go for the instant gratification of fighting and hopefully winning, but if not it just means they get another, potentially more tilted in their favor, fight in another 15 seconds or so.

The point of community is also a good one and one I've noticed several times.  Cross-realm battlegrounds seemed to obliterate any sense of community among the pvp players in WoW, because while they made it possible to queue constantly, they made your opponents into faceless enemies.  In the earlier days in WoW I remember fighting specific enemies that I kept seeing day after day.  Some were annoying assholes, others were respected enemies.  And on the flipside of the coin, you got to know people on your own side too.  Some people became well-known leaders, and people would listen to them.  As soon as one of these individuals started giving orders in a battleground, a good percentage of the population organized up and did what they said.  Contrast with now where nobody listens to anybody on a battleground because nobody knows anybody (and therefore they have good reason not to listen, since they have no idea on the leadership qualifications of the person trying to give orders.  Planetside, which I've played a bit lately during their reactivation, has examples of this - people get to know their CR5's and know which ones to listen to and who to ignore.  If Aion can get the community aspect right and keep it that way, it'll have an edge in keeping players, since people like to stick around when they feel like they're part of a bigger community, and leaving brings the risk or certainty that you will be forgotten.

[Hindenburg]

In the earlier days in WoW I remember fighting specific enemies that I kept seeing day after day.  Some were annoying assholes, others were respected enemies.  And on the flipside of the coin, you got to know people on your own side too.  Some people became well-known leaders, and people would listen to them.  As soon as one of these individuals started giving orders in a battleground, a good percentage of the population organized up and did what they said.  Contrast with now where nobody listens to anybody on a battleground because nobody knows anybody (and therefore they have good reason not to listen, since they have no idea on the leadership qualifications of the person trying to give orders. 

Man, that myth never dies...

[Koyasha]

That "myth" is direct personal experience.  Alliance rarely won AV on the server I was on.  Except when one guy was there, because half the server knew him because he tended to be the one that led the victories in AV.  Honestly, he wasn't a great tactician or strategist, he wasn't even that great a leader.  He got into the situation because he posted a lot on the forums and because he had a good position in one of the top guilds, which allowed him to initially field strong groups from his guild, enabling him to win decisive victories.  This increased his reputation, which caused more people to listen to what he told them to do, which further increased the victories under his command, and so on.  You didn't need brilliant or even particularly good leadership, as long as your side was following a plan, any plan, and the enemy wasn't.

But none of that is possible in the cross-server BG system because there's too many people on both sides.  Nobody ever becomes well-known for leading victories.  Battleground reputation (among players) doesn't exist anymore, for the most part.

[Merusk]

Koyosha's experience is the same as mine.  Hell, I still recognize some of the BG leaders from the old 'stay on your server days.'   I wish I could say the same for the Horde, but they all transferred off over the years due to pop imbalances.  I still remember Kurtz and Kingrex were two of the most feared players on Alleria.  Goddamn that rogue.  Then there was Mork the orc.. fucking hunters.

Yeah, I don't get that anymore.

[Hindenburg]

one guy

Hm.

[ghost]

Wow.  It turned into Warhammeralliance.com pretty quickly in this thread, didn't it?

[tmp]

Its funny though that I can't even point out how in the history of games having a ranking system where losing takes away points has failed to do anything but foster exploiting, bullshit tactics and avoiding taking any fight you don't think you can win.

Well...

The Elo system was invented as an improved chess rating system, but today it is also used in many other games. It is also used as a rating system for multiplayer competition in a number of computer games[1], and has been adapted to team sports including association football, American college football and basketball, and Major League Baseball.

the idea behind Elo systems is to reflect player's skill as a number which allows to predict the chance of that player to win against another. When the player loses a game, their rating goes down, their 'points are taken away'. Sounds familiar?

And yes, in some circumstances this type of system can certainly have issues you mention. However, to say that such system generates 'nothing but issues' is a rather hysterical hyperbole.

It'd be also pretty hard if not close to impossible to offer alternative ranking system in competitive sport/activity that --even if it only adds points rather than also takes them away-- in the end doesn't still result in people over time losing their current place on the result table due to their performance (or lack thereof). It's the very thing the rankings are for, after all, to tell prowess of player relative to all others, and based on performance in game. If someone gains in rankings it has to be at expense of all people who scored lower. And yet it's just the method of calculation that's supposed to be the big deal here?

[Lantyssa]

the idea behind Elo systems is to reflect player's skill as a number which allows to predict the chance of that player to win against another. When the player loses a game, their rating goes down, their 'points are taken away'. Sounds familiar?

What happens when you take a system designed for competative sports and mix it with a group of people whose sole purpose in life is not to play a competatively but to game that system?  Does it account for there essentially being no refs on the field?

Edit: Fixed quote.

[Senses]

Isn't that every sport though?  The Multiplayer gaming universe isn't in a bubble.  Ultimately every competitive sport has to deal with the fact that its players will try and sometimes be successfull at cheating.  That has far more to do with human nature than it does with the fact that most people who like pvp are assclowns.  But that doesn't mean you don't schedule a World Series, or rank a Quarterback before the draft.  People cheat, and still, the world must go on.  At least in professional sports like Baseball, we can rationalize the cheating by saying that fair play is less important than high drama and mass appeal.  Some people play the game, others prefer to play the system.

[Trippy]

the idea behind Elo systems is to reflect player's skill as a number which allows to predict the chance of that player to win against another. When the player loses a game, their rating goes down, their 'points are taken away'. Sounds familiar?

What happens when you take a system designed for competative sports and mix it with a group of people whose sole purpose in life is not to play a competatively but to game that system?  Does it account for there essentially being no refs on the field?

You don't have to even to look at the "metagame" to figure out that the Elo system doesn't work in this case. The Elo system was designed to rate a 1 v 1 game where both players start on "equal footing" (we'll ignore the going first advantage as players will play both sides more or less equally over their careers). It would work to rate video game players in something like a 1 v 1 DM FPS. It does not work in a "free form" PvP MMORPG.

[DLRiley]

I'm sure you guys haven't gone past the "exponential difference in power due to non-skillbased factors" which doesn't exist in sports no matter how much players play casually or cheat, but exists in mmo's since UO.

Oh yes I'm getting nostalgic pre-release of WAR, WHA feelings from this thread.

[Lantyssa]

You don't have to even to look at the "metagame" to figure out that the Elo system doesn't work in this case. The Elo system was designed to rate a 1 v 1 game where both players start on "equal footing" (we'll ignore the going first advantage as players will play both sides more or less equally over their careers). It would work to rate video game players in something like a 1 v 1 DM FPS. It does not work in a "free form" PvP MMORPG.

That was a mostly rhetorical question on my part.  I saw the same inherent flaw.

[kondratti]

I am waiting for the NDA to drop, so I can find out more about the game.

[DLRiley]

Read thread title.

[Rake]

Title should read "Aion (Asians zerg on forums to attack anyone who says anything against the next great yellow hope)

I'm neither for, or against this game, but I love how fiercely some of you want to defend it. Is there some incentive being offered if you can hard sell this do you get some special in game mount?

[Falconeer]

Now look at this Rake guy here!
Told ya. Trolls training ground. And they keep coming. Everyone wants a shot at it and some forum cred "Hey, I trolled the Aion thread on f13! I belong!"




EDIT: I have nothing against furries actually.

[tkinnun0]

Is there some incentive being offered if you can hard sell this do you get some special in game mount?

There's the thing that the more people there is on one side, the lesser your chances to get a good ranking and thus increase your PVP death penalty.

[Aez]

Is it me or we have an epidemy of troll?
Right now, there's at least 3-4 big threads with 2 pages of trolling at the end.

[Feverdream]

Now look at this Rake guy here!
Told ya. Trolls training ground. And they keep coming. Everyone wants a shot at it and some forum cred "Hey, I trolled the Aion thread on f13! I belong!"




EDIT: I have nothing against furries actually.

Great.  And this troll comes with a lovely 'racist' tone!  Nice!

Can't we just take these guys, and the people who apparently signed up for this forum solely to perpetuate their obsession with Mythic/Warhammer, and consign them to their own thread where they can yammer at one another and leave the rest of us alone?

[Brogarn]

Title should read "Aion (Asians zerg on forums to attack anyone who says anything against the next great yellow hope)

I'm neither for, or against this game, but I love how fiercely some of you want to defend it. Is there some incentive being offered if you can hard sell this do you get some special in game mount?

You know, when posting on a forum, you don't have to click "Post" right away after typing something. You've got plenty of time to think first.

[Draegan]

What an interesting development.  Where are all these people coming from.

[tmp]

What happens when you take a system designed for competative sports and mix it with a group of people whose sole purpose in life is not to play a competatively but to game that system?  Does it account for there essentially being no refs on the field?

There's going to be attempts to game the system of course since no sport is free of such people, it's just that does not mean such systems provide nothing but attempts to game them.

But it's rather more about, it's puzzling to see the intense nerdrage going selectively at the thought of "zomg they are taking away mah points, systems suxXXX" when the supposedly more acceptable alternative (just grant points for winning) doesn't actually work that much different as it still makes people lose/gain places in the overall standings. And can equally be gamed.

[Draegan]

I find it puzzling that people care about the ranking system that much as it's roughly only for epeen.

[tmp]

You don't have to even to look at the "metagame" to figure out that the Elo system doesn't work in this case. The Elo system was designed to rate a 1 v 1 game where both players start on "equal footing" (we'll ignore the going first advantage as players will play both sides more or less equally over their careers). It would work to rate video game players in something like a 1 v 1 DM FPS. It does not work in a "free form" PvP MMORPG.

I think it works as long as you consider it a simple indicator of how likely the player is to win/survive an encounter, without defining the exact nature of said encounter. In the 'open' PvP such indicator is going to be much less precise than in more controlled 1v1 environment because the player will run into many more different encounter types and so with small number of samples the way these indicators are built will vary wildly... but as the number of encounters grows large it's going to eventually include enough these types to provide what could be considered a comparable average.

It's not going to measure performance of every player in exactly the same manner, that much is obvious. But i don't think any rating system can do that in 'open' PvP, for the very same reasons this particular model can't work perfectly.

[Segoris]

Here are the patch notes for Closed Beta 5

[Yegolev]

I find it puzzling that people care about the ranking system that much as it's roughly only for epeen.

I'm pretty sure you answered yourself there.

[Draegan]

I find it puzzling that people care about the ranking system that much as it's roughly only for epeen.

I'm pretty sure you answered yourself there.

I got the impression the people against the system in this thread didn't care about epeen.  Maybe they're secretly jealous.

[tazelbain]

Maybe you guys should bring back Cevik The Entertainer; he'd take care of the thread real quick.

[Bzalthek]

Is it me or we have an epidemy of troll?
Right now, there's at least 3-4 big threads with 2 pages of trolling at the end.

Style points for using epidemy.  I rarely see that one used.

[Hoax]

I find it puzzling that people care about the ranking system that much as it's roughly only for epeen.

I'm pretty sure you answered yourself there.

I got the impression the people against the system in this thread didn't care about epeen.  Maybe they're secretly jealous.

Idiot. If this system goes live it will reduce the quality and quantity of pvp for everyone because all the pvp kids will be hellbent to protect their rank. Also bet your ass that any player in the world will be unhappy if he gets wafflestomped 8v1 and stood no chance and he loses a bunch of ranking points. Writing on the wall is so goddamn obvious with this thing.

[amiable]

Idiot. If this system goes live it will reduce the quality and quantity of pvp for everyone because all the pvp kids will be hellbent to protect their rank. Also bet your ass that any player in the world will be unhappy if he gets wafflestomped 8v1 and stood no chance and he loses a bunch of ranking points. Writing on the wall is so goddamn obvious with this thing.

Dude, I think they already established that this was an amazing success in Korea (along with the fact that we can't read and are furries). Thus it's fool proof.  FOOL PROOF!