Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Senses]

...And you have argued that point for a page.  I think we all get your position and while some might agree, its really an argument that's occuring mostly in your head.  You're basically saying that WoW's original pvp grind system made casual players angry...okay, we all agree.  The question here is whether or not they have thought of some clever ways to make it work or not.  Untill we know that why spend another page debating fantasy?

[tmp]

It's quite certain the top ranks will be only reached by hardcore grinders (if at all) and they'll be relatively few, that's really sort of a 'duh' thing. I think however these top ranks will go through churn just like everything else in the game rather than remain fixed, both due to usual burnout effect and because there isn't actually anything that can be done to prevent competition from catching up (except said competition either having or not actual will to grind equally hard)

Will some people cry when they realize the obvious that's competitive PvP means there's other people that can actually pull one down, and the higher you get the harder it is to stay there? Yup. But it's natural part of these systems, that every player eventually hits rating that's reflection of their own ability level and they find themselves unable to proceed further. That's what these rating systems are for, to give estimation of how good the player is, not to ensure everyone eventually gets to spot #1.

edit: funnily enough, as alternative LotRO out of all games uses a hybrid system for their PvM thing, where the players have individual rating that can go either up or down depending on performance, and a rank which is based on nothing but accumulated kill points which can never go down. Meaning they can have a ladder system (though not utilized in any way at the moment) but still allow every single player who participates to eventually reach the top rank. They just made that top rank require so many kill points no one reached it yet, 2 years since the game launch

[amiable]

True enough.  I'll let history be the judge.  To change the subject, is f13 going to throw its hat into the ring with a Legion?

[Vash]

I don't understand why there is so much comparison to WoW's pre-BC pvp rank/rewards system.  There are so many fundamental differences that the only similarity seems to be there are ranks.   Trying to apply anything to Aion based solely on "that's what happend in WoW's system" seems very  .

There are so many core differences I don't think any meaningful comparisons can be made.

[Draegan]

True enough.  I'll let history be the judge.  To change the subject, is f13 going to throw its hat into the ring with a Legion?

If there isn't a Bat Country you can always join Geist if you like. 

[Lantyssa]

I'm going to make a wild prediction and bet 20% of people will be untouchable in PvP and only trade ranks amongst themselves while the other 80% is fodder with no hope of ever being more than that.  If there isn't some incentive to keep them around as fodder, the pool of PvPers will steadily decrease until it is solely a PvE game.  (For North American servers.)

[Threash]

I don't understand why there is so much comparison to WoW's pre-BC pvp rank/rewards system.  There are so many fundamental differences that the only similarity seems to be there are ranks.   Trying to apply anything to Aion based solely on "that's what happend in WoW's system" seems very  .

There are so many core differences I don't think any meaningful comparisons can be made.

I agree with this completely, as someone who was very heavily involved with all of the WoW rank system iterations i can tell you that theres really almost no similarities whatsoever.  That doesn't mean i think this system is good, thats really to be seen, but it won't be the same as WoW thats for sure.

[Musashi]

I don't understand why there is so much comparison to WoW's pre-BC pvp rank/rewards system.  There are so many fundamental differences that the only similarity seems to be there are ranks.   Trying to apply anything to Aion based solely on "that's what happend in WoW's system" seems very  .

There are so many core differences I don't think any meaningful comparisons can be made.

And a retarted catass grind.  One so stupid that you are virtually required to snort lines of cocaine to have any possible hope of competing.  That's a similarity.  I think it is.  Yes.  I have confirmation on that.  It is.

So much is that grind part of the 'core' that you speak of, that I don't think you can make a case that the 'core' is different in any meaningful way from the WoW pre-BC High Warlord/Grand Marshall PvP Honor System at all.  In fact, most of the other 'core' differences are completely superfluous fluff.  The fact that PvP is the game's 'focus' doesn't really make a huge difference in relative terms.  The meat in both systems still boils down to grind, my friend.  Grind.  Grind.  Grind your way to internet superhero status.

[Draegan]

I'm going to make a wild prediction and bet 20% of people will be untouchable in PvP and only trade ranks amongst themselves while the other 80% is fodder with no hope of ever being more than that.  If there isn't some incentive to keep them around as fodder, the pool of PvPers will steadily decrease until it is solely a PvE game.  (For North American servers.)

/facepalm

How do you trade ranks?  If you die you lose more points than you gain by killing someone of equal rank.  You think the other side is going to let you farm them for stats?  They'll lose rank so fast that they will become the equivalent of farming mobs.  Then the other side will be screwed out of points for gear and their ranks.  

Do you mean trade ranks inside the guild?  How can you do that other than the top guy stop killing stuff so guy #2 can be #1 for a while?  That's assuming no one else is working towards the higher rank.

Now this 80% fodder you speak of.  How are they fodder?  They can still get the same gear.  They still have access to everything the catass' do but just not in the same timeframe obviously.  There isn't anything cockblocking them.

This isn't WOW where you need a certain rank or arena score to have access to gear.  If you have enough points (which can be obtained through PVE and PVP) you can buy the gear.  The only special thing you get with rank are those abilities that were linked a few pages ago.  Some of them have 2 hour cooldowns.  

So much is that grind part of the 'core' that you speak of, that I don't think you can make a case that the 'core' is different in any meaningful way from the WoW pre-BC High Warlord/Grand Marshall PvP Honor System at all.  In fact, most of the other 'core' differences are completely superfluous fluff.  The fact that PvP is the game's 'focus' doesn't really make a huge difference in relative terms.  The meat in both systems still boils down to grind, my friend.  Grind.  Grind.  Grind your way to internet superhero status.

All diku's boil down to grinds.  Thanks for the news update.

The core to the WOW rank system is you had to compete with the rate of honor gain with the people on your server.  So the more someone else catassed the more you had to.  Also the points were static.  It's impossible to play one session and come away with negative progression.  You couldn't lose.  You just had to race faster.

Lets put shit into perspectives for all you people out there whining about this top rank shit.

There is no limit for the first 9 Ranks.  You can take your time and rank up as much as you want and take as long as you want.  There is no competition.

For ranks 10 through 14 you can only have 2700 people occupying that space.  Now where it gets real competitive is in ranks 15 through 18 where only 44 people can be in where only 4 positions in the top 2 ranks.

This is per side.  Double those numbers per server.

So yeah, there is plenty of room for people to rank up and compete at different levels.  The only things rank does is put a target on your back, give you a fancy title.  The top 4 ranks will have a few extra spells and skills to use on long cooldowns.

[Nissl]

If there isn't some incentive to keep them around as fodder, the pool of PvPers will steadily decrease until it is solely a PvE game.

At the lowest ranking levels the gain/loss system is set so that you'll rank up just for showing up even if your kill/death ratio is below 1.  There are lower-level AP gear rewards, not to mention crafted gear and gear from doing PVE after fortress captures in 1.5.  If NCSoft is smart at all I assume that every several months they'll introduce a new tier of high end AP gear and drop the price on the older sets.

Some people will get frustrated at being killed more than they kill, but that's going to be a problem with any PVP game.

[Koyasha]

The core to the WOW rank system is you had to compete with the rate of honor gain with the people on your server.  So the more someone else catassed the more you had to.  Also the points were static.  It's impossible to play one session and come away with negative progression.  You couldn't lose.  You just had to race faster.

This is the key to this system, I'd say.  You can lose and it matters.  In WoW, as I noted before, people might have gunned for the high ranked player(s), but they had better gear by virtue of being high rank (while in this system, if you want high rank you can't buy gear because the same points that go for gear also go for rank) and killing them didn't matter anyway because people going after them was actually an advantage to their team.  They were essentially a perfect distraction.  In Aion, on the other hand, they're a liability that needs to be protected.

The system has issues, such as high ranks not being able to get involved in mass pvp like the guy said, but other than that I don't think it's going to be that much of a problem with a few people locking in all the highest ranks, unless there's too low a population total.  Let's say people do work out ways to trade ranks, if there's 100 people who want them that'll be doable.  If there's 500 people competing for them, on the other hand, it's going to be much more difficult because there will be so many of them outside of the "system" screwing up any attempts at collusion.

As for the not being able to get involved in mass pvp, I think they may actually need to make the high ranked players more powerful in order to allow them to participate more often without losing massive amounts of points.  But only during fortress sieges and that sort of thing.  A regional aura that makes you more powerful - particularly in defensive abilities - according to your rank around the fortresses would probably help their ability to participate without being a guaranteed loss of rank for them, and without imbalancing small encounters they have elsewhere.

[Shatter]

  A regional aura that makes you more powerful

A regional aura, it has a big red dot in the middle surrounded by a white exterior in the form of a circle

[Musashi]

So much is that grind part of the 'core' that you speak of, that I don't think you can make a case that the 'core' is different in any meaningful way from the WoW pre-BC High Warlord/Grand Marshall PvP Honor System at all.  In fact, most of the other 'core' differences are completely superfluous fluff.  The fact that PvP is the game's 'focus' doesn't really make a huge difference in relative terms.  The meat in both systems still boils down to grind, my friend.  Grind.  Grind.  Grind your way to internet superhero status.

All diku's boil down to grinds.  Thanks for the news update.

This grind is an extreme example, and you know it.  Don't be a asshole.

The core to the WOW rank system is you had to compete with the rate of honor gain with the people on your server.  So the more someone else catassed the more you had to.  Also the points were static.  It's impossible to play one session and come away with negative progression.  You couldn't lose.  You just had to race faster.

Lets put shit into perspectives for all you people out there whining about this top rank shit.

There is no limit for the first 9 Ranks.  You can take your time and rank up as much as you want and take as long as you want.  There is no competition.

For ranks 10 through 14 you can only have 2700 people occupying that space.  Now where it gets real competitive is in ranks 15 through 18 where only 44 people can be in where only 4 positions in the top 2 ranks.

This is per side.  Double those numbers per server.

So yeah, there is plenty of room for people to rank up and compete at different levels.  The only things rank does is put a target on your back, give you a fancy title.  The top 4 ranks will have a few extra spells and skills to use on long cooldowns.

You're putting too fine a point on it as far as I'm concerned.  What you're describing...  It's pretty much the same fucking thing as WoW.  WoW is the better game for having realized it was retarded already and moving on.  Will this game ever do so?  Doesn't look like it as has been pointed out the whole game is built on grindy PvP.  So if you like coke benders and time loss depression  when you are alerted by the sun coming up, then this game is for you.

[Shatter]

When I played beta I got a warning after 2 hours to log off and takea break "for my health" lol

[Vash]

What you're describing...  It's pretty much the same fucking thing as WoW. 

 

Guess we had to break it way down at some point, may as well get it over with now.

WoW: 95% or more of honor was gained in instanced BG's*, no penalty for death, severe diminishing returns on honor from player kills (25% and changed to 10% near the end of classic WoW), gear strictly limited by rank with very poor rewards until the top 2 ranks, can only gain honor in PvP

Thus the way to rank up in WoW was to create very strong pre-made groups and steamroll people in quick BG wins for the bonus honor as much as possible.


Aion: apparently mostly world pvp with objectives (are there any BG's or something similar?), point loss on death, no diminishing returns that I'm aware of, gear not restricted by rank, and can gain points via PvE in the PvP zones

It's almost a polar opposite or very different system in every respect, how you can draw comparisons from one to the other is beyond me.

*Diminishing returns on player kills and very severe penalties for dishonorable kills in world pvp ended up ensuring it was only for fun/entertainment when it occurred, not serious honor gain.

[Nissl]

Edit: yeah, what Vash said.

Let's try this again.

WoW rewarded you for every BG match.  Aion rewards you only for winning.  You don't have to keep up with tunnel AFKers.  People cannot rotate accounts unless they have equivalent skill.

WoW had honor decay.  Aion does not have decay.  Take time off if you like.

WoW had no mechanism for shaking up rankings other than decay.  Aion constantly removes AP in exchange for gear.  

WoW had 3 BGs (possibly only 1-2 of which were the best for ranking up). World PVP was not competitive.  Therefore things were insanely repetitive.  Aion does not have instanced PVP.

The very top ranks are probably going to be people who play a lot.  You will probably sink hundreds of hours into the endgame to get good gear.  I can't think of a game where that's different other than EVE and extremely casual games.

There are some potential problems in the system, such as encouraging the very top players to stay away from mass PVP, but they are not the problems you think they are.

[Draegan]

This grind is an extreme example, and you know it.  Don't be a asshole.

You're putting too fine a point on it as far as I'm concerned.  What you're describing...  It's pretty much the same fucking thing as WoW.  WoW is the better game for having realized it was retarded already and moving on.  Will this game ever do so?  Doesn't look like it as has been pointed out the whole game is built on grindy PvP.  So if you like coke benders and time loss depression  when you are alerted by the sun coming up, then this game is for you.

You must be a fucking Re'Tard.

Aion's ranking system does not prevent you from doing anything.  There is no content or gear cockblock.  It's a meta game.  If you like casual PVP this game is for you. Because the first 10 ranks afford you the same shit as the top ranks minus a few abilities.

Jesus fucking christ.  A for a 10th time, WOW's Grand Marshall system isn't anything like Aion's system for the TOP RANKS other than you probably have to play a lot which should be fucking obvious in any online fucking ladder game.

[Nissl]

are there any BG's or something similar?

Nope.  They are adding an instanced dungeon in 1.5 where you race against a group from the other side.  However you can only sign up once a day and runs go off at a few specific times.  It seems like an experiment more than a fundamental mechanic at this point.

[Vash]

I can't think of a game where that's different other than EVE and extremely casual games.

Even EvE is not a good example because while you can get up and running in the low end ships and contribute to a corp. after only a few "months" into the game, you still need to play for a significant amount of time before you have the skills to fly the high end stuff like Dreads, Cap ships, and Titans.  (If you consider those ships to be the GM/HWL equivalent of EvE that is.)

[skrigg]

You all are putting to much into this rank stuff. They basically mean jack squat, you can get the points needed to buy gear with minimal pvp or a ton of it or just straight pve. You don't even have to kill as much as you die, your rank might not get very high but you can still get the gear.

[Draegan]

You all are putting to much into this rank stuff. They basically mean jack squat, you can get the points needed to buy gear with minimal pvp or a ton of it or just straight pve. You don't even have to kill as much as you die, your rank might not get very high but you can still get the gear.

I was just going to point this out.  Your rank doesn't correlate to your fun unless you specifically get bent out of shape because you're not #1.

[tmp]

WoW is the better game for having realized it was retarded already and moving on.

Actually, WoW has moved to a system that's very much like this Aion thing -- the Arena matches with rating that goes up/down depending on performance, and is used as gate to gear. Aion is perhaps less catassy in this regard, if they don't have rank requirement attached to the gear you can purchase for the points...

[Musashi]

You must be a fucking Re'Tard.

Aion's ranking system does not prevent you from doing anything.  There is no content or gear cockblock.  It's a meta game.  If you like casual PVP this game is for you. Because the first 10 ranks afford you the same shit as the top ranks minus a few abilities.

Jesus fucking christ.  A for a 10th time, WOW's Grand Marshall system isn't anything like Aion's system for the TOP RANKS other than you probably have to play a lot which should be fucking obvious in any online fucking ladder game.

Yes.  I am a retard for getting my money back.  What you're saying depends on the relative value of 'a few abilities.'  I'm willing to concede that those 'few abilities' may or may not be game breaking for you or for most people.  But they probably are.  If they weren't, why get them at all?

[tmp]

If they weren't, why get them at all?

Same reason people spend hours after hours raiding for gear with few more stat points than the stuff they already have?

[Nissl]

People are calling you a retard because you keep insisting that Aion's system will force marathon grinding "just like WoW" without addressing repeated, detailed, exceedingly patient explanations to the contrary.  When the game launches and there are inevitably issues with the endgame system I predict you'll be back in here claiming you were right even though the issues are going to be completely different than the ones you're currently complaining about.

I have seen a few complaints from Korean players that those high-end skills don't affect much.  I have not seen any complaints in the opposite direction.  The skills are supposed to be a nice perk.  People who bother getting top ranks get slightly better gear, small ability perks, and bragging rights.  

[Musashi]

[Draegan]

Fuck.  I've been feeding a troll for at least a fucking page.

Good show.

[Falconeer]

Fuck.  I've been feeding a troll for at least a fucking page.

Good show.

Heh.
I stopped the feeding on page 27, though. He really loves to see Aion as a bad WoW. It must be important for him to prove that point.

[Musashi]

And you guys are hell bent on seeing it as The Next Best Thing.  Rose Tint. 

Also, I never said it was a bad wow.  I said it's the same god damn thing.

[Senses]

Noone, I should rephrase that, noone here sees it as the next big thing, just the next thing.  I can't for the life of me understand why you even bothered to preorder it in the first place, or more importantly, how after playing it a couple days, came to such grand conclusions on the state of endgame pvp.  Maybe you are 100percent right, but the point everyone has been trying to make to you for over a page is that maybe you are 100percent wrong.  Your misguided butthurt over how you felt about the original WoW pvp ranking system has left you so traumatized that not only do you see it in every shadow, your willing to completely write off a game you don't even seem to know much about. 

So why not just do what the rest of us have decided to do and wait and see? Then you can hate it for real reasons.

[01101010]

No instanced PvP battlegound/scenarios/arenas (no, the arena in the cities does not count). The game will fail outright. How else am i supposed to get my rank? 

my equation on whether to play a game is nuch less complicated. If said game = fun, then insert coin and play. When game becomes not fun, take money and blow it on hookers. Seems easy enough.

[Draegan]

And you guys are hell bent on seeing it as The Next Best Thing.  Rose Tint. 

Also, I never said it was a bad wow.  I said it's the same god damn thing.

I've always said that's it's just another diku game, but well made and shiny and has the initial quality of a WOW and isn't broken.

[Falconeer]

It's a slow day.





 

[nurtsi]

I really hope they make a live-action movie out of this some day. I want to see how that green thing is actually used

[Bzalthek]

Porn: sometimes it's really just morbid curiosity.